Availability of Safrole for MDMA manufacture, alter availability?

[BlueBull]

Anise oil doesn't smell anything like safrole except they are both stinky. And safrole is way harder to get now than 10 or 15 years ago. Anethole smells like Jagermeister tastes and safrole smells like root beer tastes. Also safrole is the only precursor chemical used by clandestine chemists to produce MDMA.

So you're saying clandestine labs only use one synthesis route, with safrole as precursor? I did not know that. Is it because for the other routes you need equipment that's too expensive or because the other precursors are impossible to obtain or...?

 

[Dresden]

Other precursors, such as isosafrole, piperonal, and MDP2P aka PMK, are they themselves derived from safrole. Synthesizing MDMA from pyrocatechol or aspirin is very much more difficult, although MDMA can be made from methylone in one step via the Wolff-Kishner reduction.

 

[Folley]

Anise oil doesn't smell anything like safrole except they are both stinky. And safrole is way harder to get now than 10 or 15 years ago. Anethole smells like Jagermeister tastes and safrole smells like root beer tastes. Also safrole is the only precursor chemical used by clandestine chemists to produce MDMA. Sure, pure MDMA can be made from aspirin or methylone, but it currently is not.

The only one? Come on. You can't POSSIBLY know that.


Please don't spread unfounded speculation. Unless you happen to know every chemist in the world, you have NO IDEA what they are using.

 

[BlueBull]

Other precursors, such as isosafrole, piperonal, and MDP2P aka PMK, are they themselves derived from safrole.

Alright. That explains a lot. When I started researching MDMA the only info I found was "MDMA is made using safrole oil". And I thought ok so it's always coming from sassafras trees. Then I ran into topics on various forums that said "no there are different precursors that can be used to produce MDMA" and I found this strange but just accepted it as my research being incomplete. Now it makes sense, so different precursors ARE used but they are all derived from one main precursor, safrole... Thanks for the info, very interesting!

*edit* Ok so now I'm confused after Folley's reaction I wish I knew a bit more of chemistry but it's not my domain...

 

[futura2012]

and to me it seems that as long as you end up with pure MDMA (3,4-methylenedioxy-N-methyl-amphetamine nothing else) it shouldn't matter what precursor is used, no? I mean if the molecules are exactly the same it seems to me it's physically impossible that they have different or more pronunciated effects.

I dont agree with this. MDMA produced from safrol can easily contain trace amounts of PMMA as it can other CNS active compounds. The traces of PMMA are a direct result of using safrol as your primary precursor. if you were to choose an alternative precursor and a different style of synth routes this would have a direct influence on your final product + impurities.

Yes if we are talking med grade MDMA the synth route is irrelevant as pure MDMA is pure MDMA however, clan lab MDMA is not pure. Infact it is more desirable non pure as a result MDMA is not just MDMA.

Is there something I'm missing here? Because I can't understand why people would say "no no the MDMA of the 90's was better, it's because of the synth".

Could be a numerous number of reasons.

Salt type
Dose
Adulterants
Isomers
Impurities
Synth Methods to name a few

On the basis we are discussing clan lab techniques almost every pill / powder sample will be MDMA + whatever. Under these conditions MDMA is not just MDMA.

Yes an MDMA molecule is an MDMA molecule but an isolated MDMA molecule in the drug scene / clan lab world is almost unheard of.

Anise oil doesn't smell anything like safrole

Dunno how you figured this out. Order a bottle and smell it. has a strong smell of liquorice. So does safrol pour it on some RC pills and they will smell like saf produced MDMA. Thats what all the dealer monkeys do selling fake product.

Also safrole is the only precursor chemical used by clandestine chemists to produce MDMA.

Not correct look up Piperonyl to name a few this is used in the perfume industry this was a very popular precursor in the 90s as it was non regulated back then. This also explains why there was a lot of MDA around then as its pretty easy to make MDA from piperonyl.

Sure, pure MDMA can be made from aspirin or methylone, but it currently is not.

You could make MDMA starting from a carbon molecule but its all about speed and ease. The closer to MDMA you start the easier it is to make. How a particular lab makes MDMA is pure speculation. It will be a decision based on geography, precursor availability, other reagents available, skill of chemist, size of operation etc etc too many variables to speculate.

 

[OGM]

Anise oil doesn't smell anything like safrole except they are both stinky. And safrole is way harder to get now than 10 or 15 years ago. Anethole smells like Jagermeister tastes and safrole smells like root beer tastes. Also safrole is the only precursor chemical used by clandestine chemists to produce MDMA. Sure, pure MDMA can be made from aspirin or methylone, but it currently is not.

Other precursor chemicals have been used to make MDMA. I know one not in my continent that was using a substitute with excellent results. More steps were involved but the product tested well.

My point is that where there is a will there is a way. Even it safrole was somehow completely cut off...quality MDMA could still be made.

Safrole is not always that hard to get because one often obtains it from industrial sources that "legitimately" buys it and secretly resells a portion. If I know people that obtain quality safrole here in the New York City area with all of it's rules, regulations and agencies...I imagine it must be much easier to obtain in countries such as India and China!!!

 

[Mendo_K]

Helional also, or so I hear for MDA only...? Its also legal, some say a new secret... anyway been in the business that long care to input?

Edit - Not MDMA just MDA, and very easy by the sounds of it, not sure of the smell though.

 

[Folley]

^ There's a method of making MDMA that eventually goes through MDA, so that's still a viable route.




What does the smell matter though? Again.. if you think you can tell which precursor was used just by sniffing it, you're being silly.




There's a really great page on erowid where they used 3 methods to make MDMA and analyzed the impurities and compared them. I can't link to it because it details how to make MDMA in three different ways, but try and find it if you can. It's rather interesting.

here is the abstract

3,4-Methylenedioxymethylamphetamine (MDMA) was prepared by three synthetic routes. Analytical data from thin-layer chromatography, gas chromatography and gas chromatography-mass spectrometry of the precursors (safrole and isosafrole), intermediates (isosafrole glycol, piperonylmethylketone, N-formyl-3,4-methylenedioxymethylamphetamine, N-formyl-3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine and 1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-bromopropane), reaction by-products and the product MDMA were obtained. Further analyses of MDMA using other techniques including 1H- and 13C-nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy, X-ray diffraction, infrared spectroscopy, ultraviolet spectroscopy and high performance liquid chromatography were also carried out. The results were then used as reference data for the identification of MDMA in case samples and also to establish the route of synthesis of illicitly prepared MDMA by the study of trace impurities.

 

[Mendo_K]

So the big question is, anyone try all 3 and write it up?

 

[reflux21]

I dont agree with this. MDMA produced from safrol can easily contain trace amounts of PMMA as it can other CNS active compounds. The traces of PMMA are a direct result of using safrol as your primary precursor. if you were to choose an alternative precursor and a different style of synth routes this would have a direct influence on your final product + impurities.

That's completly wrong. PMA and PMMA would never be a contaminint when using safrole. If you have a distillation setup chances are you know how to use a vigreux column. PMMA comes when anethole is used instead of safrole. This idea that you have that there are consistently impurities that have a psychoactive effect is also wrong. Most of the impurities produced aren't even active and would be in such trace amount that even if they were they wouldn't have any effect.

Yes if we are talking med grade MDMA the synth route is irrelevant as pure MDMA is pure MDMA however, clan lab MDMA is not pure. Infact it is more desirable non pure as a result MDMA is not just MDMA.

That's just completely retarded. MDMA made in a lab clandestinly can be just as pure as MDMA made by a parmaceutical company provided the person understands chemisty. With that bee as your avatar you should know a lot do. Impure MDMA is most certainly not desirable, some things that can be left in it are thought to be carcinogenic but not psychoactive.

On the basis we are discussing clan lab techniques almost every pill / powder sample will be MDMA + whatever. Under these conditions MDMA is not just MDMA.

Yes an MDMA molecule is an MDMA molecule but an isolated MDMA molecule in the drug scene / clan lab world is almost unheard of.

What you're saying is sooo absurd I don't know how to respond.

 

[Dresden]

Like I said, piperonal aka heliotropin aka helional aka 3,4-methylenedioxybenzaldehyde (which is used in perfumery) can be used to make MDxx, but it is still made from safrole. And if you can't smell the difference between anise and safrole, then you have a poor sense of smell.

But, to answer the original poster's question, yes MDMA's availability went way down in the US at least when the Feds started cracking down on safrole. That event coincided with the rise of cheap methylone manufactured in China from 1,3-benzodioxole.

Finally, MDMA can't just be made from anything, such as "carbon."

 

[alasdairm]

Finally, MDMA can't just be made from anything, such as "carbon."

i don't see anybody saying, or even implying, otherwise.

alasdair

 

[reflux21]

Like I said, piperonal aka heliotropin aka helional aka 3,4-methylenedioxybenzaldehyde (which is used in perfumery) can be used to make MDxx, but it is still made from safrole. And if you can't smell the difference between anise and safrole, then you have a poor sense of smell.

But, to answer the original poster's question, yes MDMA's availability went way down in the US at least when the Feds started cracking down on safrole. That event coincided with the rise of cheap methylone manufactured in China from 1,3-benzodioxole.

Finally, MDMA can't just be made from anything, such as "carbon."

Piperonal and helional are two completly different things. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about either. Piperonal/heliotropin is 3,4-methylendioxybenzaldehyde a benzylic aldehyde, that other aldehyde you mentioned is 2-Methyl-3-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)propanal. Safrole and anethole do smell completely different though. And yes you can make MDMA from just straight up benzene (carbon) fairly easily; dihydroxylation, methylenation, bromination, a grignard, to safrole. You can easily synthesize a number of useful intermediates depending on what you do the grignard reaction with.

 

[Dresden]

You're right. Helional is not the same compound as piperonal, and it blows a hole in my assertion that all clandestine MDMA (or MDA, as the case may be) eventually comes from safrole I think.

Still, I don't know why they aren't making MDMA from methylone. That would save us from all this methylone molly!

 

[reflux21]

^Because other much cheaper, legal compounds are availible that can be utilized so it's not economically feasable on large scale. For small scale it would work though, wolff-kishner.

 

[Folley]

Just because something can be done doesn't mean it's economical or smart or easy or even worthwhile to go through with

 

[Dresden]

Methylone is a lot cheaper than MDMA, MDMA is more desirable than methylone, and it can be done in one step. But, for all I know, someone already is doing it.

Or maybe the Wolff-Kishner and/or Clemmenson reductions don't work on methylone. Either way, I'll try to shut up now.

 

[reflux21]

^But if you look at the chemicals used to perform the wolff-kishner reduction they aren't the nicest to work with in comparison to those tradtionally used to synthesize MDMA. Hydrazine is extremly toxic and unstable (explosive). This obviously comes into play. Now about the economical feasibility of the situation, 1kg of methylone costs 10-15k+, yields are in the 30-40% range from what others who have done the wolff-kishner reduction on this substrate have reported. In comparison a kg of camphor 1.070 costs around $25-60 which someone could make .6-.7kg of MDMA from. At that rate using methylone you are paying over 20k/kg, a kg of MDMA costs less than that bought without the work. A kg costs less than 1k to make via traditional methods. Not worth doing unless you just want to see if it works or something.

Edit to your edit: No the wolff-kishner works. Results have been posted from people who have used it. The clemmenson reduction doesn't.

 

[justaddictedddd]

That's completly wrong. PMA and PMMA would never be a contaminint when using safrole. If you have a distillation setup chances are you know how to use a vigreux column. PMMA comes when anethole is used instead of safrole. This idea that you have that there are consistently impurities that have a psychoactive effect is also wrong. Most of the impurities produced aren't even active and would be in such trace amount that even if they were they wouldn't have any effect.



That's just completely retarded. MDMA made in a lab clandestinly can be just as pure as MDMA made by a parmaceutical company provided the person understands chemisty. With that bee as your avatar you should know a lot do. Impure MDMA is most certainly not desirable, some things that can be left in it are thought to be carcinogenic but not psychoactive.






What you're saying is sooo absurd I don't know how to respond.

This post is the winning post of the day.

YIELD, guys. YIELD YIELD YIELD!! Why would anybody want to risk creating pure MDMA through techniques that aren't bound to yield as much as if they used an easier synthesis route? I would expound more but I must digress; sleep seems more like the easier route to go. I will be back on this topic when the early light hits my room~

 

[Dresden]

^But if you look at the chemicals used to perform the wolff-kishner reduction they aren't the nicest to work with in comparison to those tradtionally used to synthesize MDMA. Hydrazine is extremly toxic and unstable (explosive). This obviously comes into play. Now about the economical feasibility of the situation, 1kg of methylone costs 10-15k+, yields are in the 30-40% range from what others who have done the wolff-kishner reduction on this substrate have reported. In comparison a kg of camphor 1.070 costs around $25-60 which someone could make .6-.7kg of MDMA from. At that rate using methylone you are paying over 20k/kg, a kg of MDMA costs less than that bought without the work. A kg costs less than 1k to make via traditional methods. Not worth doing unless you just want to see if it works or something.

Edit to your edit: No the wolff-kishner works. Results have been posted from people who have used it. The clemmenson reduction doesn't.

That explains it then.