Are meat eaters allowed to judge another persons ethics?

[Cosmic Trigger]

No humans are ethical overall. We are always trying to make ourselves out the good guys when it's far far from the truth.

There is no need for some of the horrific torture farming methods used on food animals. We need to get past that. I buy only grass fed beef because they get to range. In fact I see them on the mountainsides all around the valley where I live. They have a good life up until the end and that's true of many humans also. The end is usually hard for every living thing outside of plants possibly, but we can minimize that also in food animals. But the fact is most of us don't care about suffering as long as it's not happening to us and our families and friends.

 

[undiminished689]

Ur articles were purely political tho it was like an 8 year old bully made them.

However in one it does state that plants do indeed feel pain and this is a true statement. When you mow your lawn and you get that fresh grass smell it?s actually the plants sending out a distress signal. Cool right?

Ya I agree you can say ?there?s no such thing as an ethical vegan? cuz technically you?re killing plants. I was never arguing that. My words ?limit the suffering?

As stated you should look into the statistics and what costs it takes to feed the animals. A full grown cow takes 3-30 gallons of water each day resulting in 1095-10,095 gallons of water a year for ONE cow. An acre of land for one cow PER DAY. It becomes to the point where our farmlands are not for our food, it?s for our foods food. I didn?t get even get into the amount of manure that is

And I don?t have statistics on how much of the market is dominated by factory farming and how grass fed beef could actually be false advertising.

And then something about my meat being knee high in its own feces in a cage all of its life doesn?t really appeal to me. And then meat substitutes and how we don?t even produce real meat anymore.

Ya dude I might not be ethical but in no way if we get more people on this rich mans diet could we sustain it.

 

[Xorkoth]

I don't feel a moral imperative to not eat meat, though I do feel a moral imperative to not eat factory farmed meat. However over the years I have drastically changed the balance of meat to plant food sources that I consume. I was raised in the American midwest, where it "wasn't a meal if there isn't meat". I would eat meat generally 3 times a day. These days I eat beef once in a blue moon, and I'll eat chicken and fish but not often. I get most of my protein from nuts and eggs these days. Not factory farmed eggs. I see nothing morally wrong with eating animals as long as the animals are treated well. Honestly, hunting (which I've never done) is probably better for the planet than mass-produced plant sources of food. The reason I eat a lot less meat now is because, like undiminished said, meat (especially beef) is quite an inefficient use of food and water resources. The more people that are eating a high-meat diet, the harder it is to sustain and the worse it is for the planet. So I keep it to just a small portion of my diet.

 

[belligerent drunk]

Oh ok I get it, nevermind. Just curious about one thing though. Would you care if I was to strap you down and get out the drills and hot pokers and have a good time on you?

Yes, I would. If you were to drill me, I would object to it because of physical pain, and assuming I would live, the potential lifelong disability from it. I don't condone inflicting pain on any sentient organism for the lulz, it's unnecessary suffering. However, in the case of factory farming, it is about efficiency, isn't it? The goal isn't to inflict pain, it's the opposite actually*.

*Of course human factor plays a role here. There is room for sadism in such a place.

E:

The reason I eat a lot less meat now is because, like undiminished said, meat (especially beef) is quite an inefficient use of food and water resources. The more people that are eating a high-meat diet, the harder it is to sustain and the worse it is for the planet. So I keep it to just a small portion of my diet.

This is actually very true. The meat industry inherently uses much more resources (including drinking water) than agriculture does. If there was ever a reason not to eat meat, it's this.

 

[Xorkoth]

I don't condone inflicting pain on any sentient organism for the lulz, it's unnecessary suffering. However, in the case of factory farming, it is about efficiency, isn't it? The goal isn't to inflict pain, it's the opposite actually.

Well actually I would say the goal of factory farming is efficiency, and the suffering/quality of life of the animals is irrelevant to the process and really not a consideration. Which is the problem, I can't see a way to factory farm that doesn't grossly destroy quality of life for the animals, even if practices were improved.

 

[Cosmic Trigger]

BD I've seen films of farmers abusing their animals for fun or anger release. It ain't pretty

 

[undiminished689]

Do any of you guys identify with socialist idealogies?

I never got how people can say we want equality when they eat meat.

Kinda like practice what you preach kind of thing

 

[spacejunk]

Do any of you guys identify with socialist idealogies?

Sure, you could say that.

I never got how people can say we want equality when they eat meat.

Kinda like practice what you preach kind of thing

Not sure what you mean by that...i havent eaten meat for the last ~20 years.

This thread is based on a ridiculous premise, and many posts reflect that...and little else

 

[swilow]

Do any of you guys identify with socialist idealogies?

I never got how people can say we want equality when they eat meat.

Kinda like practice what you preach kind of thing

I am definitely left but not a socialist. I don't see a connection between the two ideologies you are comparing though. You can desire equality for humans and still eat meat without being a hypocrite. A lot of people simply don't see animals as having the same rights as humans.

But I tend to think it's hard to say you are compassionate if you eat meat. Bleeding hearts don't seem to bleed for animals.

 

[JGrimez]

A lot of people simply don't see animals as having the same rights as humans.

They don't. If they did we would lock up any lion that kills a gazelle.
Animals need to brutally kill each other for our environment to survive effectively.
Some people live in some idealistic fantasy land..

With that said we should definitely prevent unnecessary animal abuse, but anthropomorphizing animals gets us nowhere.

 

[spacejunk]

Vegetarianism doesn't have anything to do with anthropomorphising animals.

 

[Cosmic Trigger]

JG

Oh yeah I forgot that animals can't feel anything. I mean isn't it obvious. Lets not have any anthropomorphism.

Humans are the most violent and aggressive killers on the planet. However we claim to be rational and compassionate also. So when do we start proving that? We are strong enough to set logical rules for our relationship to animals. Your statement about the lion going to jail is funny. You kill or have someone else do the dirty work to live and you are not in jail for murder. Sounds like you are under a misconception of what constitutes murder. Of course lions kill each other and that's what you should have used as an example. However lions are not rational so at best you'd put them in mental institutions lol.

 

[belligerent drunk]

BD I've seen films of farmers abusing their animals for fun or anger release. It ain't pretty

So have I, hence the footnote. It's plain organism abuse, and it's not OK.

 

[undiminished689]

Sorry guys I work nights and I sleep a lot because of it.

Why am saying that if u believe in buzz words like ?equality? ?fairness? it?s like I?m definitely libertarian right close anarcho capitalism. I can respect actual hippies, vegans, like Noam Chomskys in the world on the libertarian left side but modern day liberals are complete cancer and this is why

What?s ?fair? about an animal being in cages in its own sh*t for all it?s life eating food that puts a whole in its stomach, what?s ?equal? about animals being raised for slaughter and using all OUR resources to do it, what?s ?right? about murder?

I ask this because I felt like if people actually lived by what they said the world would be a 1000X Times better. Like higher elites probably use that excuse ?o they are just common people? o my favorite in The military o they are just civilians to justify ripping on them.

You think ppl will protect their ego while doing something horrible to you by saying o they are less than me. Now think about that with animals. U want all this equality but don?t pratice It?s no wonder we are where we are.

 

[JGrimez]

I'm confused as to the vegan stance. Do you feel sad and cry when an animal brutally kills another for food?
Do you think there is something 'wrong' with this?
If so you may be denying nature.

What rights exactly do animals share with humans? Is iit ok if an animal is raised in a protected space on an ethical farm and slaughtered as humanely as possible?
Or do you feel that all animals must be free to roam as they please and to be brutally ripped apart by a predator?

 

[Xorkoth]

I'm confused as to the vegan stance. Do you feel sad and cry when an animal brutally kills another for food?
Do you think there is something 'wrong' with this?
If so you may be denying nature.

I seriously doubt anyone is saying this. I think some people make the choice (not me) to not eat any meat, which is cool, to each his own. For me, I just think that factory farming creates a lot of unnecessary pain.

 

[undiminished689]

There?s no part of that really just comes out and makes sense to me really.

It?s not sustainable 40% of the world is farmland and half that farmland is to feed the other half.

It?s not ethical especially when the demand becomes so high you sacrifice living quality of livestock. Look up what 1900s chicken looked like compared to the monstracity it turned into now because of ?engineering?

It?s not healthy meat is as carcinogenic as cigarettes. Red and white.

It?s not for survival because we have more than enough land to produce our food of all kinds if we were on a vegterian/vegan diet. It?s not like we are killing billons and billons of animals for survival, we are simply choosing to with a ret*rded amount of resources for it.

And to answer your questions in my opinion I would say morally it?s wrong. Logically it?s fucking ret*rded beyond all belief you put in wayyyyy more of than u get out. But legally ur safe.

I?d let the animals be what does it matter what they do if it?s not bugging us. When animal kills an animal it?s nature, natural instincts and part of the struggle to survive. When we kill animals it?s because we choose so.

Also I?ve read many many many articles about aborted fetuses being used in a lot of food. This is a main driver of why ill eat raw vegatbles, fruits, rice and beans. Ya m8 we have some sick f*cks running the food industry

 

[swilow]

You think ppl will protect their ego while doing something horrible to you by saying o they are less than me. Now think about that with animals. U want all this equality but don?t pratice It?s no wonder we are where we are.

We are where we are because of capitalism and greed IMO. As long as expediency and profit is valued as highly as they are, animals are just objects/commodities and will never be accorded any of the rights that we accorded ourselves.

I'm confused as to the vegan stance. Do you feel sad and cry when an animal brutally kills another for food?
Do you think there is something 'wrong' with this?
If so you may be denying nature.

Do you get hard when you eat a steak?

I really suggest you don't ask stupid loaded questions if you are interested in having any sort of discussion.

What rights exactly do animals share with humans?

This is a difficult question. I don't actually think the concept of 'rights' is especially useful in any sense. People seem to think that rights are these objective things that we have discovered that are truths about the universe, but is it a coincidence that humans both discovered the concept of rights and the fact that we seem to have the most?

I think we could give animals any rights we desired, if we simply wanted to.

Wild animals deserve different rights to our domesticated slave animals. Wild animals should be free to excercise autonomy over their lives, and if anything, humans should simply step back and allow them to live. We should avoid destroying their habitat too.

Domestic animals deserve these most basic rights at a minimum; the so-called "five freedoms":

Freedom from hunger and thirst
Freedom from discomfort
Freedom from pain, injury and disease
Freedom to express normal behaviour
Freedom from fear and distress

Given that most of these animals have been so thoroughly engineered, its unlikely that cows/chickens/goats/sheep/dogs/cats/etc. would ever survive in the wild and away from humans.

Okay, maybe cats.

Is iit ok if an animal is raised in a protected space on an ethical farm and slaughtered as humanely as possible?
Or do you feel that all animals must be free to roam as they place and to be brutally ripped apart by a predator?

False dilemma really. I'm sure there are more than two possible options for animals. For example, I'd prefer to see an animal die of old age than either of the two choices you present.

But I do not believe that it is possible for farm animals to be treated humanely under our greedy system, so I cannot say I support the idea. I don't think its possible. If all 7 billion humans wanted to eat humanely raised meat, we'd have to live on the Moon. Its not going to happen, so I tend to disregard it.

 

[spacejunk]

I'm confused as to the vegan stance. Do you feel sad and cry when an animal brutally kills another for food?
Do you think there is something 'wrong' with this?
If so you may be denying nature.

What rights exactly do animals share with humans? Is iit ok if an animal is raised in a protected space on an ethical farm and slaughtered as humanely as possible?
Or do you feel that all animals must be free to roam as they place and to be brutally ripped apart by a predator?

What a strange post.
Humans have a choice what we eat and how we eat it.

Vegans understand that carnivores eat meat.
We also understand that we - as humans - can exist quite comfortably without the sort of cruel, wasteful and environmentally destructive practices that are currently being used to supply the world's demand for meat.

undiminsished689 outlines a bunch of the reasons people chose to eat a plant based diet, and i have no interest in debating silly posts about vegans objecting to carnivorous animals eating meat; it's just a disingenuous strawman.

What do omnivores care if people are vegetarian or vegan anyway? I've never understood the hate vegans get.

I'm always reading complaints that vegans are sanctimonious, but i know dozens of vegans and have never met one that fits the stereotype.
Meat eaters, on the other hand, are often obsessed with the meat i don't eat. I don't get it

 

[undiminished689]

@swillow

Capitalism is great for the most part. But that?s very ultimatum thinking tho, it will always exist if there?s a market for it, if there?s money to be made. It doesn?t help the state subsidizes and incentives a rich mans diet but if ppl stopped buying meat even at just half the rate of what it is now ppl would turn into the new market that is slowly turning up which is the vegan/superfood market. Ppl will go where the money is. Greed is wanting other people?s money in my eyes