Podcast Are Higher THC Percentages Causing Serious Mental Health Problems?

[BourbonMac]

Yea it may look better today but looks aren’t everything. The strains I tried which had be retained for decades looked like shit too. They had no color, mostly brown. Not a huge amount of trichromes either, but the flower and hash got me high as fuck.

When I go into a shop I looks are only half of it for me, smell is the biggest indicator. Usually a higher terpene content means more cannabinoids too. I also don’t shop by percentages either. I’ve had times where I’ll get a 12% and a 21% and the 12% hits harder and better. Cannabis is a complex assortment of various compounds that come together in a beautiful way.

I think if anything weed back then probably wasn’t as reliably good, I’m assuming there were folks that smoked ditch and folks that smoked fire. Now it’s all fire, in the US at least.

-GC

Yeah I've had stuff that really did not look good, brown and shitty, and yet it got me mega stoned. Probably the best weed I ever had was very leafy, big stems, not dense. When I first bought it I was like damn, this is shit, but it actually had the most euphoric high I've ever felt, and tasted very lemony. It seems lemony strains like this have always given me a euphoric high, but it really looked kinda shwag. It wasn't brown but again was not dense and didn't look like the fire buds I was usually getting. I did get some really fire stuff on the side, but I found I liked the leafy one more, as the high was perfect every time. A lot of the time if I get high during the day I feel tired, stoned, useless, like the world is all going on without me. Sometimes I'd just feel that way sober. But this stuff would lift me up from that and I'd feel motivated. It's rare that I've found strains that can do this during the day. It definitely was some homegrown

 

[G_Chem]

Well, yeah. But they are still ending up there, whether anyone disagrees with it or not. And there is definitely a connection being made in many studies between the onset of psychotic episodes and other MH disorders in younger, vulnerable populations. So in the end, the trips to the ER, either way, are going to more likely be a psychiatric admission versus a proper "medical crisis" that puts people at risk for death. This is happening in ERs all across the country and it is not a secret at all. People go to ERs for psychiatric assessments all the time, which are not "life or limb" decisions, per se. Not in the traditional sense.

Yes they do but they shouldn’t. Not only is it not going to help at all beyond maybe a benzodiazepine of which they hardly prescribe anymore. But now they’ve likely gotten themselves into a huge unnecessary bill.

Also in regards to more mental health issues amongst kids, I’d say any data on that should be thrown out. We’ve got COVID, climate change, kids these days have no hope compared to the infinite possibilities of that 80’s and 90’s.

Even if we put all that aside. It could be nothing more than what people have said it is all along, and hastening of underlying conditions that would have manifested at some point. Instead of happening in the early 20’s it’s happening in early teens.

-GC

 

[The Shadow Self]

So we should ignore it? And we are going to "throw out the data?" That sounds like cherry-picking because it is.
There are so many assumptions built into that above argument that it isn't even funny. That's literally disregarding other people's experiences and mental health while prioritizing what you think others should prioritize. I have worked in the treatment world for many years with thousands of clients and have worked to advocate for children and adults for a long time. You're basically saying to ignore an entire segment of the population. That's mind-blowing to me.

Basically you're saying that "it's going to happen anyway, so who cares?" Which is only a speculation anyway. And as far as admissions for psychiatric reasons are concerned, saying "it's not going to help anyway" is simply not true. While the system is quite flawed, many people actually do receive treatment or get connected to resources via the ER, so saying it's a waste of time is as about as fatalistic as it gets. I know this because I have worked in the field for decades and have seen many people get the assistance they need.. Others, not so much. Maybe we should skip to the endgame and have everyone go jump off a bridge?

 

[Phobos]

Yes of course strong weed has been around for a long time. But people just recently started messing with the chemicals to isolate certain cannabinoids and increase them.

For example, now I can buy a disposable vape with 98% THC. There has never been a time in history a plant produced percentages that high, maybe 40-something percent.

IMO the problem is not the % of THC present, but that some strains are selected to be very low in CBD, which moderates the ability of THC to activate the CB1 receptor.
Those strains are, IME, more prone to induce anxiety/paranoia/panic.
Now, are these strains able to cause mental illnesses or not, I can't say, but I think this is why more people are showing up at the ER after smoking.

 

[Fire&Water]

Beebee needs a bobba

 

[sohrah]

I should just quit I can't find the will to right now given life stressors gnawing at me but that's life either embrace it 100% or avoid it but don't use like a lab monkey that should be supervised please I can't tell other what to do nor think!

 

[G_Chem]

So we should ignore it? And we are going to "throw out the data?" That sounds like cherry-picking because it is.
There are so many assumptions built into that above argument that it isn't even funny. That's literally disregarding other people's experiences and mental health while prioritizing what you think others should prioritize. I have worked in the treatment world for many years with thousands of clients and have worked to advocate for children and adults for a long time. You're basically saying to ignore an entire segment of the population. That's mind-blowing to me.

Basically you're saying that "it's going to happen anyway, so who cares?" Which is only a speculation anyway. And as far as admissions for psychiatric reasons are concerned, saying "it's not going to help anyway" is simply not true. While the system is quite flawed, many people actually do receive treatment or get connected to resources via the ER, so saying it's a waste of time is as about as fatalistic as it gets. I know this because I have worked in the field for decades and have seen many people get the assistance they need.. Others, not so much. Maybe we should skip to the endgame and have everyone go jump off a bridge?

Quite dramatic…. It’s like any data, to be taken contextually. Right now many journalists (because that’s what your posting most of, media articles) are cherry picking as well to make cannabis look bad cuz it sells. I’m just leveling the playing field.

I’m not saying don’t get help, you keep miss hearing me.. I’m saying DONT GO TO THE ER (if you are in the US). The medical system here is set up in a way where to get adequate mental health treatment, or for that matter treatment for a lot of things, it’s much better both financially and in the interest of the patients health to pursue via URGENT CARE or your primary.

Notice I use urgent care, ER and urgent care at your local clinic are two very different things with very different outcomes. Again if you go to a hospital ER they’ll put you through the ringer for no reason and pay for it with an arm and a leg.

Let’s look at the two potential cannabis mental health issues.. An acute reaction is the ONLY thing even remotely in need of an ER visit. Most of cannabis ER visits are simply an anxiety reaction, one of which can often be quelled even more simply by education that it can happen. Again if an urgent care is open go there instead if it’s absolutely needed. Having a benzo or kava laying around is infinitely cheaper and better for a patients long term health outcomes.

The downsides to going to the ER unnecessarily for a cannabis anxiety attack; financial burden, medical records potentially labeled as drug user, if rural potentially having your community find out, the list goes on and none of it really helps the patient.

The other possibility is a longer term build of symptoms such as maybe the beginnings of schizophrenia. Once again, for both your outcome and your finances you’ll want to pursue this through your primary doctor.

-GC

 

[The Shadow Self]

I am not cherry picking anything.

"Also in regards to more mental health issues amongst kids, I’d say any data on that should be thrown out."

That is the literal definition of cherry picking driven by a personal agenda. My pointing that out isn't drama. It's exactly what you said. Verbatim.

And I have no desire to take a position on any side one way or the other and have to deal with the reality of what is happening on the ground every day. I am not pro or anti anything here. This is supposed to be a harm reduction site, and I was just identifying a trend. And it is not simply a trend created by people with an anti-MJ agenda, although there are clearly those entities that are. If you think I am anti MJ you'd be sadly mistaken.

But you've got it all figured out and clearly know how to proceed from here. So thanks for the insights. I am just having a conversation and have no interest in being adversarial and have no agenda. I am just basing what I said on your statements. But there is clearly no issue here, and you clearly know the proper way to proceed. Meanwhile, for all the "easy solutions" you provide, the problem isn't going anywhere...

 

[G_Chem]

I am not cherry picking anything.

"Also in regards to more mental health issues amongst kids, I’d say any data on that should be thrown out."

That is the literal definition of cherry picking driven by a personal agenda. My pointing that out isn't drama. It's exactly what you said. Verbatim.

And I have no desire to take a position on any side one way or the other and have to deal with the reality of what is happening on the ground every day. I am not pro or anti anything here. This is supposed to be a harm reduction site, and I was just identifying a trend. And it is not simply a trend created by people with an anti-MJ agenda, although there are clearly those entities that are. If you think I am anti MJ you'd be sadly mistaken.

But you've got it all figured out and clearly know how to proceed from here. So thanks for the insights. I am just having a conversation and have no interest in being adversarial and have no agenda. I am just basing what I said on your statements. But there is clearly no issue here, and you clearly know the proper way to proceed. Meanwhile, for all the "easy solutions" you provide, the problem isn't going anywhere...

I don’t understand what’s more harm reduction than trying to keep people from unnecessarily accruing massive debt from hospital bills. Trust me from experience you don’t want that, you’ll have infinitely more anxiety than a single night of cannabis.

Alright I’ll rescind my comment that it should be “thrown out” but again if we look very simply at how these mental illnesses manifest, we’ve known since pretty much Day 1 that drugs with a psychedelic component (cannabis being one) can hasten these illnesses.

I think it’s not really looking at it full picture just to say in multiple news journals that “kids mental illness” is going up when we are also still fighting off a global pandemic, climate change beginning to kick our ass, etc.

So I’ll rephrase that comment as say “anyone who can look at the full picture should have no problem seeing that any current data on children mental health issues cannot be tied solely to cannabis as the cause.”

You know I almost stand by that statement you quoted if it weren’t so definitive, I still feel trying to portray cannabis as a CAUSATION of mental health illness is just plain wrong on the many reasons I stated.

A good researcher must control for all variables, and right now the variables are all over the table to the point where it’s hard to say anything. Same goes for Covid, hard to tie too much to it yet when there’s economic collapse and other issues that really muddy the waters of research.

I also don’t think it’s cherry picking to simply state why certain research may be wrong, of which you haven’t been much able to refute. (Although I expect a lengthy reply now.)

I’ll finish with a, you’ve done an amazing job being unbiased… lol. At least I’m honest about my stance.

-GC

 

[The Shadow Self]

Have a nice Thanksgiving!

 

[G_Chem]

Here’s a study which looks at genetic predisposition for schizophrenia as well as cannabis use and finds an overlap. Long story short this could possibly mean Schizophrenics are simply predisposed to cannabis use instead of cannabis use being a causative factor. It should be noted that this still does not rule causation completely, it could be bi-directional.

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/43357016.pdf

Another good article..

Cannabis and psychosis/schizophrenia: human studies - European Archives of Psychiatry and Clinical Neuroscience

The association between cannabis use and psychosis has long been recognized. Recent advances in knowledge about cannabinoid receptor function have renewed interest in this association. Converging lines of evidence suggest that cannabinoids can produce a full range of transient schizophrenia-like...

link.springer.com

“However, only a very small proportion of the general population exposed to cannabinoids develop a psychotic illness. It is likely that cannabis exposure is a “component cause” that interacts with other factors to “cause” schizophrenia or a psychotic disorder, but is neither necessary nor sufficient to do so alone.”

It seems based on these two articles schizophrenia MAY possibly be exacerbated in individuals with genetic predisposition by cannabis. Pretty much what people have been saying. Hopefully as medical science progresses it’ll get easier to warn patients about these possible complications.


Next with depression we see increased rates with heavy/problematic usage but nothing associated with less infrequent use in this study.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1360-0443.2003.00437.x

Here’s a more recent study stating..

“however, strong evidence points to the inverse association; i.e. that depression may lead to the onset or increase in cannabis use frequency.”

Cannabis and Depression

There is a growing body of evidence pointing to the co-occurrence of cannabis use and depression. There is also some evidence that the use of cannabis may lead to the onset of depression; however, strong evidence points to the inverse association; i.e. that...

link.springer.com

Here’s one on depression and anxiety..

Cannabis use, depression and anxiety: A 3-year prospective population-based study

Whether or not cannabis use may increase the risk for depression and/or anxiety is not clear. For one thing, it has not been possible to draw a defini…

www.sciencedirect.com

“We found no longitudinal associations between cannabis use and incidence of depression/anxiety, or between depression/anxiety and later cannabis use onset.”


The more we look the more we start to see a pattern of asking ourselves what came first, chicken or the egg? In this case we keep seeing research showing folks with mental health disorders having a predisposition for substance use, not the other way around. Here’s a good one to that effect…

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/00952991003713784

“Compared to abstainers, the risk of AMD (anxiety and mental disorders) was significantly greater for infrequent cannabis users (OR = 1.43) and heavy cannabis users (OR = 2.04) but not for those in between.”

So how is it that infrequent users and heavy users had increased risk but those in between did not? This completely shits all over and dose response narrative.

-GC