Are animals really not equal?

[psychedelicsoul]

you know... the truth is vegans are right. Humans don't need meat, animals suffer, the environment suffers, children around the world suffer when grain is used to feed livestock in the US.

But you know what..,. I don't care.

The animal kingdom demonstrates the reality that there's no morality in this world. God made animals to kill each other. Humans aren't any worse than any carnivore/omnivore. We just happen to be on top of the food change. These animals exist for our sake. If we didn't exist, these animals would have not reason to exist, as they're only value comes from our perception. That's how I rationalize my apathy towards endangered species, and to livestock. It's not wrong, it's just how nature intended. The weak only exist to be food for the strong.

I needs my meat. I don't give a damn about right or wrong when bacon is concerned. I don't give two shits about an animal, if you offered me dog meat I'd woof it down. I'd have a doggone good time. I would bring a new meaning to the term "puppy chow".
And well.... If you eat meat, you're no better than me. You don't give a shit that animals have to suffer to satisfy you, but neither do I. I'm not against hunting, I don't like what happened to Cecil, but if you offered me a Cecil steak... well... Sure I'd eat Cecil the lion, but you'd have no problem eating a poor defenseless piglet... But wait? They don't have names, they have numbers. I bet if he was called, "132435 the lion" you wouldn't give a shit.
You realize it? The only reason we give a shit about Cecil is because of the cultural significance of him. The value that HUMANS placed on him. If he was any other lion, nobody would care. It's only human perception that made his death a tragedy. Without that the sentimental nonsense that humans have, Cecil would be but a meaningless creature. In reality, Cecil is just dust in the wind, like any other creature... including humans.

But when you think about it... I'm not any more of a selfish asshole than most Americans am I? I don't give a damn, but it doesn't look like anybody else does. Then again Americans care about "Exotic animals" and "pets". We make pigs go through a living hell, but bitch about China doing the same thing to dogs.
Pigs are just as intelligent if not more intelligent than dogs. We're no better than China. We bitch about hunting Dolphin but we allow people to shred up foxes and raccoon with dogs. Most of you who take meds support animal abuse, how do you think your medication is tested?
The truth is Americans only care about animals that seem cool and exotic to them. We don't really see animals as equals.

 

[-=SS=-]

I'm not any more of a selfish asshole than most Americans am I?

Well most Americans would be capable of posting a question instead of just ranting and insulting everyone.

 

[Xorkoth]

Humans have been a part of the food chain for as long as we've existed, like any other animal is, but modern humans have had an extremely detabilizing effect on species and the ecosystem, due to our numbers mostly. Our numbers, and our tendency to destroy ecosystems.

I agree that, although I find eating certain animals repellant, that we're no better than China just because we eat pigs and cows instead of dogs. I'm not going to eat those animals because it's how I feel about it personally, but I don't feel bad about eating meat, as a concept. I do feel bad about supporting factory farming (which I realize I do sometimes though I don't most of the time). I think it's fucked up how we cause so much unnecessary suffering in animals with our current practices. But that comes back to numbers... we have SO MANY people to feed. It's a complex issue.

 

[What 23]

Humans are separate from other animals in a way that is very unique, as far as can be observed.

Sorry, I don't really think that's what you were talking about.

 

[psychedelicsoul]

Humans have been a part of the food chain for as long as we've existed, like any other animal is, but modern humans have had an extremely detabilizing effect on species and the ecosystem, due to our numbers mostly. Our numbers, and our tendency to destroy ecosystems.

I agree that, although I find eating certain animals repellant, that we're no better than China just because we eat pigs and cows instead of dogs. I'm not going to eat those animals because it's how I feel about it personally, but I don't feel bad about eating meat, as a concept. I do feel bad about supporting factory farming (which I realize I do sometimes though I don't most of the time). I think it's fucked up how we cause so much unnecessary suffering in animals with our current practices. But that comes back to numbers... we have SO MANY people to feed. It's a complex issue.

That's the hard part. There exists meat from free range farms and ranches, but I'm sure it's probably more expensive than it would be at the grocery store. And most people don't hunt because they either don't feel like it, can't afford to, or just don't have the time.
Plus, organic vegetables can cost a pretty penny as well, and if you're a vegan then you need to have a whole lot of variety in your diet and careful planning. Some people just can't afford the various organic foods that would supplement for not eating meat.

Also we are a little better than China. Even though we don't enforce our laws that much, we do have far more laws concerning animal welfare and sanitary conditions for meat. We also don't boil pigs alive, the way some chinese do with dogs

 

[What 23]

Dogs are uniquely human among animals, though. They descended from wolves and adapted to live, socially, with us. Their expressions mirror ours, now. They follow where we point unlike even our closest relatives, the chimpanzee/bonobo. We cooperate with dogs/they with us in ways that can't be approached by other animal-human relationships, currently.

I believe there is much less friction to us eating hooved animals such as pigs, and cattle, which are not predators, which we have much less of a cooperative history with, than with dogs. Dogs (and cats) also aren't grazing animals, like these others. Their meat is certainly more tough. It makes less sense to eat them, unless there aren't other sources.

 

[psychedelicsoul]

Dogs are uniquely human among animals, though. They descended from wolves and adapted to live, socially, with us. Their expressions mirror ours, now. They follow where we point unlike even our closest relatives, the chimpanzee/bonobo. We cooperate with dogs/they with us in ways that can't be approached by other animal-human relationships, currently.I believe there is much less friction to us eating hooved animals such as pigs, and cattle, which are not predators, which we have much less of a cooperative history with, than with dogs. Dogs (and cats) also aren't grazing animals, like these others. Their meat is certainly more tough. It makes less sense to eat them, unless there aren't other sources.

I've heard dog is delicious, but cat is awful tasting.

 

[snazzy_sn]

I'm a vegan/vegetarian.
I don't know about equals, but we are made from the same stuff.

That's important.
Everyone should understand that.

 

[What 23]

What's your point? Are you advocating bestiality?

 

[snazzy_sn]

What's your point? Are you advocating bestiality?

what me?

 

[Tromps]

No, animals really are not equal to humans.

I hope that answers the threads question without debate.

Since you mentioned God in a way that sounds like you believe in God, and if it's the monotheistic God of Judaism/Christianity/Islam then here you go; straight from the beginning.

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

In pre-modern days it sure would've been hard to be a vegan/vegetarian and survive, if not impossible depending on the time period and where you lived.

I agree with most of your post OP. I let my dog out in my backyard to chase down and tear up rabbits frequently, because they sneak in the garden in eat the veggies or plants. I don't feel bad at all because it's fenced off quite well, but they somehow find a way to keep coming back.

Hunting/killing animals for food, etc, is understandable, no doubt. Personally hunting/killing animals for sport doesn't appeal to me, but people say it's fun and thrilling. Kind of like how using drugs can be fun and thrilling, yet it isn't appealing to most people? You could argue both/neither of them harm/don't harm anyone else, depending on the situation. Probably not a good comparison, but whatever.

 

[swilow]

The animal kingdom demonstrates the reality that there's no morality in this world. God made animals to kill each other.

I don't really trust anyone who claims to know the reasoning behind the decisions of god. So many people have claimed to, and they can't all be right. You keep talking about objectivity, but you should remember that religious belief is, essentially, a matter of opinion. Opinion is only subjective.

Humans aren't any worse than any carnivore/omnivore. We just happen to be on top of the food change. These animals exist for our sake. If we didn't exist, these animals would have not reason to exist, as they're only value comes from our perception. That's how I rationalize my apathy towards endangered species, and to livestock. It's not wrong, it's just how nature intended. The weak only exist to be food for the strong.

To be honest, what you are saying is so extremely anthropocentric that I can't take it seriously. You claim, again, to have knowledge of things that you really can't. This fundamental flaw negates the power of what you are saying IMO.

You don't give a shit that animals have to suffer to satisfy you, but neither do I. I'm not against hunting, I don't like what happened to Cecil, but if you offered me a Cecil steak... well... Sure I'd eat Cecil the lion, but you'd have no problem eating a poor defenseless piglet... But wait? They don't have names, they have numbers. I bet if he was called, "132435 the lion" you wouldn't give a shit

How useful is adressing an unnamed multitude with insults? Who is the "you" you refer to?

I thought about really debating this with you, but most of your points rely on this assumption and generalisation. There is very little substance or fact, just opinion, yet you present it like fact.

 

[Foreigner]

Every vegan I've met in northern climates is unhealthy. Depending on where you're geographically located, meat may be necessary. In the summer I eat a lot more fresh veggies, which are seasonal. In the winter I eat more carbs, meat, and preserves. This is the cycle of nature for most omnivores.

The world isn't starving because of meat eaters, it's because of agricultural subsidies, and governments that burn crop to affect world price, like the U.S. and Canada. They literally incinerate food so they can make more money.

I don't believe humans and animals are necessarily unequal, but I would instinctively try to save a human over an animal in most cases. That might just be because of a built in desire to save my own species, I dunno.

The primary problem here is that there are too many humans on planet earth. Most activities, even highly destructive ones, are sustainable on a smaller scale.

 

[ForEverAfter]

It is extremely difficult to maintain a healthy vegan diet, even with supplements.
I've tried, repeatedly, and come to the conclusion (repeatedly) that it's not natural.
Whether or not animals are equal doesn't determine whether or not we should eat them.
There is too much focus on the word equality, these days. I think we forget what it means.
If a shark was aware that it was equal with fish, should the shark still eat fish?

Does a cow deserve to live as much as me? ... I suppose so.
Does a cow deserve to live as much as the insects and microscopic organisms that live on the grass it eats?
Everything is equal; we value some things higher than others, but - objectively - everything is equal.

I have faith that everything is exactly should be, and I have faith that it will always be so.
We live in a time where humans eat meat. We shouldn't feel guilty about that.
That is just who, and what, we are.

We're no better than China.

Agreed.

...

(Nice thread, psychedelic.)

 

[dopemaster]

I disagree with the OP about the fact that humans do not need meat. Human beings are omnivores. Omnivores need to eat both meat and vegetation for healthy sustenance.

Yes probably with enough dietary supplements and a very well thought out diet your health would not suffer that much from going vegan. I knew a girl that was a vegetarian and often she would get anemic and eat chicken. I myself usually eat a mostly vegetarian diet but from time to time I find myself eating more meat. I suppose I eat a great deal of fruit and vegetables simply because I like them.

I have experienced anemia myself a quite few times mostly due to drug withdrawal and being unable to eat. It is not a pleasant feeling. Your skin turns white, you can see the veins in your face, and you feel incredibly weak.

It is also very expensive to go vegetarian and even more so vegan.

My sister was a vegetarian for over 15 years and briefly vegan. She found it to be very expensive but she began to feel very weak and decided that it just was not worth it. Now she eats seafood and some chicken and other birds for the first time since she was a teenager.

So the detrimental effects to a person's health, the unnecessary spike to a budget, and asking a person to not eat food that they enjoy is just not fair. It is a personal choice and you should not try to make someone feel guilty for that.

I do not think animals are kept in the best conditions especially chickens as I often see truckloads of chickens on the way to the chicken plant to be slaughtered and I have a few friends who have worked there so I know exactly how inhumane the practices are. So that being said I do think some companies could do a better job with the treatment of animals. I see the chickens packed in so tight that broken legs are protruding through the fencing on the trucks.

Anyways I do buy farm eggs because I truly believe the amount of stress an animal endures does affect the quality of the meat and I avoid milk that has hormones in it. Anyways back to my point, it just is not fair to try to convert someone to your way of thinking. It might be hip to be vegetarian or vegan but it is expensive, difficult, and often times rather unhealthy.

So if you want to make a difference advocate for better treatment of farm animals and purchase products where animals are raised under the best circumstances. I think the shit that PETA pulls like handing out buckets of blood is just fucked up and ineffectual. It really just ruins people's meals and makes people adverse to their message which is rather fundamentalist to begin with.

You really have to accept that the very core of humankind's mentality is to eat meat and vegetables and all the ethics in the world can't change that simple fact that we are not truly capable of going without eating meat without suffering health problems to some degree. I get that a very well thought out diet and vitamin supplements might remedy the problems to a large degree but it is not fair to impose that on someone else.

I used to see it differently and had considered going vegetarian and once I felt the health effects and I craved meat so bad I just went back to a regular diet. I felt much better afterwards. It was not really over ethical reasons so much as stomach difficulties in my case. I still suffer from naseau and it is not just drug addiction and after addressing the addiction, and my stomach ulcers I still feel sick to my stomach very easily and often have to "warm up" my stomach with fruit and bread. But I digress, this truly is an individual choice and should not be pushed upon anyone.

All you can truly do effectively is try to change the way farm animals are treated and how the get to the grocery store. That is done by educating yourself on where your food comes from and making the choice to get it from a place that does right by animals and advocating for other people to do the same. That is why we have the right to freedom of assembly, freedom of speech, and the right to peaceful protests. I would go with a non-fundamentalist group if you want to change people's minds.

 

[Mafioso]

IMO, humans are animals just like the rest, just perhaps have an evolutionary advantage. Animals eat animals, always have and always will. I see nothing wrong with eating animals, although I do understand there are a frightening amount of species going extinct every year- however I don't think this is because humans eat other animals.

 

[-=SS=-]

OP I appear to have misjudged the intention and merits of your thread. Sorry about that.

It is extremely difficult to maintain a healthy vegan diet, even with supplements.
I've tried, repeatedly, and come to the conclusion (repeatedly) that it's not natural.
Whether or not animals are equal doesn't determine whether or not we should eat them.
There is too much focus on the word equality, these days. I think we forget what it means.
If a shark was aware that it was equal with fish, should the shark still eat fish?

I like this post. It's always good to listen to someone who's gone from one side, to the other, back again, and then come up with an insightful reflection on it all.

One should always try to remain objective about the food chain. It is brutal out there. Everything is eating everything else, or killing something else. In the distance between your eyes and these words on the screen there are probably some microscopic water droplets playing host to a bacterial massacre. Outside your window various plants are killing other plants but so slowly you can't see it. The upward momentum of energy through the food chain is quite apparent.. it's a natural system, of which we are part of.. morality doesn't even come into it.

Having said that.. I don't support the use of animals for 'fun'.. whether that be hunting a lion for fun, catch and release fishing, an elephant in the circus, or owning pets to fill an emotional void in your life. I don't think in terms of these being 'right or wrong'.. rather it's just a sad reflection of our own neurosis as humans that we require animals beyond a practical need.. we are essentially taking an organism out of it's natural programming to fill a failure in our own. Whether lower animals feel a sense of loss at being trapped or even neutered to fit in domestic life is a question one should answer for themselves. As someone who once owned a budgie, loved it dearly and had a real bond with it, I got the impression that despite it being cared and loved for it always wanted to fulfill its natural programming and just be outside.

Eating meat is not a big deal. It's part of nature's programming. So is utilizing animals for practical needs.. there are plenty of other species that have a symbiotic relationship with other species. That doesn't mean we should engage in apathy or assume we are somehow above this system, or that nature is a blind program. Having a little respect and reverence for the system won't harm us, but arrogance towards it could lead to our undoing as a species. To be honest I'm surprised nature hasn't shaken us off yet, which makes me wonder about our purpose as humans.

 

[Paultoombes]

i've often just wondered this:

What are vegans/vegetarian/etc. ultimate goal? Like I can understand what their reasoning is, but it never makes sense to me. I may just be cynical, but heres what I think.

1. The meat industry will continue killing animals whether I as an individual choose to consume them or not. I feel like its kinda sad if an animal goes through all of that suffering to ultimately get thrown out by the store because I didn't buy it.

2. What do the evangelical vegans think will happen to all the livestock if the entire population adopts a vegan diet? Do they think farmers will just continue to raise all their animals until every farm animal dies naturally from old age? Do they expect all livestock to just be released into the wild? It's a fact that cows chickens pigs etc don't exist the way they do in nature, we have been genetically modifying them through breeding for possibly millennia. The livestock will either multiply and kill off other species, or be killed by predators and the predators will multiply, either way the ecosystem is fucked. The only "humane" option would be to kill every last farm animal, which of course the vegans would then not eat.

3. As far as we know, humans didn't just "pop" into existence. We aren't somehow seperate from the rest of the universe. We are part of a much much greater whole. We didn't just randomly become the earth molding complex creatures we are now. We evolved, those of us with bigger brains survived longer, and thats how we became so intelligent. Us using cars to get to places quicker is no different than a chimp using a stick to catch termites, or a crow using rocks to raise the water in a jug. In a grand scale, we are just the species who flourished and thrived while others failed to adapt (ie. homo neanderthalenthis, pandas) and others are adapting (dogs, crows, pigeons, etc.)

Just my two cents.

 

[spacejunk]

Veganism is a movement? I don't really get why people get so concerned about what others choose to put in their bodies.
That applies to drugs, food - whatever.
All the vegans i know are very healthy people - not malnourished or otherwise sick, anaemic or frail; quite the opposite, my friends with vegan eating habits are active and creative individuals.
It should be noted that none of the people to whom i refer are heavy drug takers or amphetamine/opiate users. If that were the case, i can see how health problems would arise.
But with a balanced diet, and an awareness of essential nutrition requirements, vitamin b12 is one of the few supplements sometimes required.
This can be said for alcoholics as well, so i don't really understand the backlash in some quarters towards people acting upon their tastes or ethical beliefs. Don't we all do that here?
As for whether or not meat tastes good - that is an entirely subjective point of view. I don't like it, nor do i like a lot of things other people fucking love. Its all a matter of personal choice.
But to get back to the original question posed; humans are animals, just animals that have learned to adapt the world around us to suit our needs and whims. Other animals are capable of things we are not, and vice-versa.
There is no distinction between "animals" and "humans" except in our minds IMO.

 

[tantric]

i'm vegan. mostly - that's the style of food i generally eat for reasons that have little to do with animal ethics. when i do eat meat, i like it in a stew, where it's an ingredient, not a course. not interested in steak, but sashimi, well, that's my exception. i'm thinking about making another for goat meat.

when i was in grad school for ecology, i had to make up a course worth of slides for freshman ecological literacy. i did the math - the earth's arable land, growth rates, ecological efficiency, etc. the truth is that there's enough land being cultivated now to feed everyone on earth a good vegetarian diet and it could go on sustainably. assuming population growth tops out at 11billion, we might even manage that with GMO crops. the oceans, if managed wisely, would feed the planet all the protein and meat we need and then some, and have room left over for a whales and dolphins (at the top of the food chain before humans). but in no way can everyone on earth eat what the average westerner eats now - that means some people have to starve. so i eat like a peasant. very rarely for meat, and then for special purposes only. makes it better anyway - you should try my african groundnut stew with fish.