Appeals court says requirement to attend AA unconstitutional

[Adrenochrome]

a) Agree entirely, but this is a bad thing. The government should not allow the freeness of something to pervert fair play or the separation of church and state. What if some fundamentalist islamic group offered free schooling for all American children to the US government and they accepted? Would you accept that as a good thing just because it didn't cost the government a dime?

b) It is not a question of embracing the program that is a problem. It is embracing a higher power (AKA God). Unless AA is a clandestine program of christian mind washing (or, as it is sometimes referred to as, conversion) then you can't send atheists or members of other non 'higher power' based belief systems to such a program and then expect them to embrace it, when part and parcel of that would require a fundamental chance in their world view. If you want to try and convert people fine, hand out leaflets or something. Don't force inmates to choose between early freedom and treatment which they need and their current non 'higher power' based world view, thats just underhanded.

a fucking men

 

[Fight Club]

a fucking men

Do you have anything intelligent or thoughful to add to this discussion? What is "a fucking men"; your attempt at a clever play on religious slogans or words?

Take a break from Bluelight and use the free time to attend an anger management class.

FC

 

[Adrenochrome]

Do you have anything intelligent or thoughful to add to this discussion? What is "a fucking men"; your attempt at a clever play on religious slogans or words?

Take a break from Bluelight and use the free time to attend an anger management class.

FC

Lol people that are affliated with AA are acutely obsessed with anger management
seriously, fuck that anger manangement shit, I don't have big enough mussles to be an angry person I never yell or harm anyone hahahaha

Seriously MrM said something so profound that I had to express that it was great, and I reiterate herein: government should not recommend any religious or spiritual free program, wtf are we conquistadors?

 

[MrM]

Do you have anything intelligent or thoughful to add to this discussion? What is "a fucking men"; your attempt at a clever play on religious slogans or words?

Take a break from Bluelight and use the free time to attend an anger management class.

FC

And where did he get that religious slogan from? If religion was truly a private act of the individual then he'd probably not even be aware of such things, but it's not. Religions are generally pretty proactive in getting their thoughts, beliefs and slogans out into public awareness. You can look at it from an evolutionary viewpoint (amusingly fitting really) and say that any that were content to remain purely private tend to die out, or at least not spread so far and wide and thus enter the public consciousness.

Given that religious slogans are sent out into the public domain so freely, you can hardly complain when they get used, changed and sent right back.

Do you get annoyed when people say 'god!' or 'jesus christ!' when pissed off? Those terms are used that way pretty commonly nowerdays, even by the nonreligious. Maybe it's you that needs to attend an anger management course?

 

[mulberryman]

Anger Management programs, AA, NA, Religions, from an evolutionary standpoint, are all concerned with one thing: growth. More members means more member contributions, more money, and also more power. All of these things will seek the backing of our govenments, naturally. Of course, in a democracy, its up to us to smart enough to not let our governments back them.

 

[Fight Club]

Anger Management programs, AA, NA, Religions, from an evolutionary standpoint, are all concerned with one thing: growth. More members means more member contributions, more money, and also more power. All of these things will seek the backing of our govenments, naturally. Of course, in a democracy, its up to us to smart enough to not let our governments back them.

I read the first sentence and for a moment thought you were refering to spirtual growth! Point well taken though; I agree that religions are institutions and "big business", which I think that many people, especially "followers" forget. FWIW, AA isn't getting rich on the $1 I contribute a few times a week . . .

FC

 

[MrM]

I read the first sentence and for a moment thought you were refering to spirtual growth! Point well taken though; I agree that religions are institutions and "big business", which I think that many people, especially "followers" forget. FWIW, AA isn't getting rich on the $1 I contribute a few times a week . . .

FC

It's about influence as much as money, especially with religion (as opposed to big business).

And you can't deny AA is a household name. Most people have heard of them and they have the government using them as the primary means of treatment for a large number of parolees. Thats a lot of influence.

 

[Adrenochrome]

Not to mention when i was flippying channels and saw that shithead pat o'brian doing the serenity prayer

 

[TruthSpeaker1]

Interesting note: The founder of AA used acid from time to time. Talk about changing addictions huh?

let's not forget that AA helps millions of people overcome their alcoholism. I personally think it's a shame that the probation officers and drug consolers out there can no longer refer to AA as an option.

When I was in my drug consoling class (court-mandated) I flunked a drug screen so my therapist told me I could go to 30 AA meetings in 30 days instead of going back to jail. While it didn't really change my opinion in any way I could see all the good that it was doing in other people's lives.

let's not criticize what we don't fully understand

 

[MrM]

Interesting note: The founder of AA used acid from time to time. Talk about changing addictions huh?

let's not forget that AA helps millions of people overcome their alcoholism. I personally think it's a shame that the probation officers and drug consolers out there can no longer refer to AA as an option.

When I was in my drug consoling class (court-mandated) I flunked a drug screen so my therapist told me I could go to 30 AA meetings in 30 days instead of going back to jail. While it didn't really change my opinion in any way I could see all the good that it was doing in other people's lives.

let's not criticize what we don't fully understand

Fair enough it helps some people. The problem is all those it can't help because they have differing belief systems. I'd be more in favour of making sure there was a treatment program suitable for everyone who wanted treatment than shutting down a treatment program because it would only help some people.

However, it is fair to criticize a program that discriminates against certain people based on their religion / lack of religion, despite the fact i can't claim to understand all the details perfectly.

 

[AlphaOdure]

I sat through the entire meeting thinking how bogus it was that I was forced to sit through a meeting where every other word was Jesus this and God that when Im not in the least bit religious, spiritual yes, religious no.

I don't know what meetings you're going to but it is explicitly forbidden to endorse any religion over another in official NA and AA meetings. Narcotics Anonymous (and to a lesser extent, AA) are specifically non-religious and only endorse spirituality. In fact, its against area policy to even mention specific religions and/or beliefs; i'm sure some groups violate this tradition, but to do so would be going against the core values of AA and NA.

I wonder if the NA/AA programs receive any type of gov't funding? Maybe based on attendance?

Nope, absolutely none. They are both self supporting, self reliant, self-help programs.

 

[AlphaOdure]

What you are saying, effectively, is that only people willing to go with a religious program are allowed early parol for cooperating with that treatment program.

AA and NA are NOT religious programs; explicitly nonreligious infact. The traditions of both groups clearly state that these programs are spiritual in nature, not meant to endorse any religion. That being said, specific members may have their opinions on God and/or religion and may make certain statements that seem to endorse one or the other. But like anything else in life, the social makeup of everyone involved differs from person to person. By no means do the opinions of a few reflect that of NA or AA as a whole.

Most the people who endorse negative opinions on these programs obviously have no formal expertise in NA or AA. If you read the "tradition literature" (basically, the "rules" governing the make up and/or content of meetings)--it will clearly refute most of your claims of "religious" overtones.