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apomorphine exists in nature?

asecin

asecin

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Joined
Apr 13, 2005
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accidentally saw this on wikipedia "There is evidence that the clinical effects of plants including N. caerulea that contain the psychoactive alkaloid apomorphine were known to both the Mayans and the Ancient Egyptians" but i always thought apomorphine is synthetic derivative and as i can see from the wiki page it never mentions its natural existence in any plant. it does however mention its use as a drug and shows its generic names therefore im assuming with lack of refferences it doesnt exist naturally and yet i see it now being mentioned in few species of lotus as the one foremost mentioned.

any help here, does apomorphine exist in nature or not and what are the sources, does lotus actually have any and which parts?
 
well, that is one article that says apomorphine does exist in a plant, but i still keep reading (mainly wikipedia) apomorphine is synthetic derivative of morphine and it is sold as expensive brand medicine for which if there is an actual natural source will seriously help mitigate the problems associated with getting a prescription and paying such high cost for the pills.
so, if this article is correct, how much mg per what dose is contained in the plant? it is not clear! which parts are used and what extraction methods?
 
i assume now the article just misspelled aporphine which is present in these type of plants judging by this read; Aporphine is one of a class of quinoline alkaloids. Many different relatives of this compound have been purified from plants.[1] One commonly used aporphine derivative is apomorphine, although it does not occur naturally.

i keep getting the "apomorphine does not occur naturally" but this keep eluding me to the fact plants with aporphines might somehow have ability to also contain apomorphine and this recent article is confusing me even further if they just misunderstood and represented aporphine for apomorphine....
 
asecin said:
i assume now the article just misspelled aporphine which is present in these type of plants judging by this read; Aporphine is one of a class of quinoline alkaloids. Many different relatives of this compound have been purified from plants.[1] One commonly used aporphine derivative is apomorphine, although it does not occur naturally.

i keep getting the "apomorphine does not occur naturally" but this keep eluding me to the fact plants with aporphines might somehow have ability to also contain apomorphine and this recent article is confusing me even further if they just misunderstood and represented aporphine for apomorphine....
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Apomorphine probably does not occur naturally. Diaz reported finding aporphines in Nymphaea, but that isn't the same thing as apomorphine. I think the reports about apomorphine being present are just sloppy scholarship where the author of a secondary source made a mistake and then subsequent authors failed to consult the primary literature. This is another example showing that wikipedia should never be used as a primary source of information -- it is useful index but there are many mistakes.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17363
https://books.google.com/books?id=s49zAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA157

The primary source is:

Diaz JL (1975) Ethnofarmacologie de algunos psicotropicos vegetales de Mexico. Cuadernos Cientificos CEMEF 4: 135-201.
 
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thats what i started thinking. but damn wiki, got me so damn excited of an actual easy to acquire natural source of apomorphine, now im depressed! its true, wikipedia is very unreliable but it is creating curiosity with various misinterpretations which can guide you to interesting findings in general


btw whats the likelihood of synthesizing apomorphine from those aporphines present in nymphaea? MUST KNOW!
 
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apomorphine is the rearrangement product of morphine+acid treatment so I don't see any reason it couldn't be present in nature

got me so damn excited of an actual easy to acquire natural source of apomorphine, now im depressed!
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it's used as a veterinary emetic I thought? so probably not the best drug to be doing.

I know one of the heroin users, Burroughs i think it was, who claimed apomorphine was some sort of miracle antidote for OP withdrawal. Not sure about tbat either.
 
im just curious about its dopamine agonist activities. this is interesting; N-n-Propylnorapomorphine (NPA) is an aporphine derivative dopamine agonist closely related to apomorphine
 
Weltmeister said:
apomorphine occurs in papaver somniferum but that doesnt do you any good i guess.

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...n_Ayurveda/links/0deec539597edf0c6b000000.pdf

nymphea also contains apomorphine but unfortunately it doesnt state the amount.

http://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/346762

Edit: Ok i fucked up. The article just refers to the one that the OP already posted. That doesnt change the fact that they found apomorphine in these species tho.
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As far as I can tell, neither article cited studies that actually detected apomorphine in Papaver somniferum or Nymphae species. They repeat the claim that it is present, but that isn't backed up by the references.
 
sekio said:
apomorphine is the rearrangement product of morphine+acid treatment so I don't see any reason it couldn't be present in nature
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I think it requires more than mild conditions for that rearrangement/elimination to occur, so I don't think it's safe to assume that it happens in nature.
 
sekio said:
I know one of the heroin users, Burroughs i think it was, who claimed apomorphine was some sort of miracle antidote for OP withdrawal. Not sure about tbat either.
Click to expand...

Think dopamine agonists are underrated in some ways. Reportedly some hardcore users are able to skip H withdrawals with cocaine and as D2 agonists appear to be not stimulating but rather have sedation as side effects this might well work for some. Just that they can bring a hell of w/d by themselves.
 
serotonin2A said:
As far as I can tell, neither article cited studies that actually detected apomorphine in Papaver somniferum or Nymphae species. They repeat the claim that it is present, but that isn't backed up by the references.
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You are right but why are they doing that. Some of the references even specifically state that it DOESNT contain apomorphine. did they even read their own references ?
 
Weltmeister said:
You are right but why are they doing that. Some of the references even specifically state that it DOESNT contain apomorphine. did they even read their own references ?
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It's a form of intellectual laziness. They probably didn't read the references. That happens all the time -- it's one reason why peer review is important.
 
palmanita said:
Think dopamine agonists are underrated in some ways. Reportedly some hardcore users are able to skip H withdrawals with cocaine and as D2 agonists appear to be not stimulating but rather have sedation as side effects this might well work for some. Just that they can bring a hell of w/d by themselves.
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what kind of a hell withdraw can they bring?
 
asecin said:
what kind of a hell withdraw can they bring?
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Mainly anhedonia, depression, maybe akathasia and anxiety as far as I know - but, according to the reports, lasting nearly forever. Can't say much about, if it only catches some etc D2 agonists aren't widely used in younger people afaik.

Wonder why they should be worse than your average stim though?

Don't think that it will go as far as drug induced parkinsonism, but dyskinesias are always listed on dopaminergics.

serotonin2A said:
It's a form of intellectual laziness. They probably didn't read the references. That happens all the time -- it's one reason why peer review is important.
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Oh yeah, so this is how our health science is made...
 
palmanita said:
Oh yeah, so this is how our health science is made...
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I wouldn't really say that...the first one was an article about Ayurvedic medicine in a Horticultural journal. The second one was a historical article written by Neurologists. Neither of those things give much confidence that the authors would take an intellectually rigorous approach toward the subject. I don't think this has anything to do with the state of health sciences -- it is more of a case of picking references that are likely to be poor sources (no offense to whomever picked them -- it happens).
 
palmanita said:
Mainly anhedonia, depression, maybe akathasia and anxiety as far as I know - but, according to the reports, lasting nearly forever. Can't say much about, if it only catches some etc D2 agonists aren't widely used in younger people afaik.

Wonder why they should be worse than your average stim though?

Don't think that it will go as far as drug induced parkinsonism, but dyskinesias are always listed on dopaminergics.


Oh yeah, so this is how our health science is made...
Click to expand...


so the alteration is perm after taking d2 agonist? i used to take pramipexole for a while long time ago but did not enjoy the sedative effects and i quit it but i dont think ive noticed any memorable side effects of withdraw. but then again, i have had depression for a long time regardless it might have potentiated it somehow without much realization. can i ask why taking any d2 agonist causes perm withdraw? compared to other things which you can quit and be normalized why d2 agonists specifically cause perm change?
 
Don't know if it really is (semi) permanent and /or that intense, this is just what I've read repeatedly there is also the term of dopamine agonist PAWS used, what scared me away from trying D2 agonists out.

Thinking rationally they shouldn't be worse than stimulants from which I recover quickly but maybe it's a difference between real dopamine or an artificial compound activating the receptors like with endorphins vs opioid where the latter appear to be more problematic?

Just recently learned that MXE is a D2 agonist too and that didn't produce any lasting negatives. Might be a weak agonist though and the other targets like NMDA could also help.

So are pramipexole or ropinirole really that bad? Or is it just coincidence that no one uses them besides Parkinson's treatment?
 
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