Any evidence of psilocybin mushroom use among ancient peoples of the British Isles?

[Solipsis]

I would say so too, but how do you know that?

In your previous post you do a whole lot of suggesting, but that doesn't tend to really convince people (probably an academia thing).

 

[Foreigner]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I don't how people say there is no evidence of ancient mushroom use, and therefore there was none.

You can't conclude if it did or didn't happen, just that we don't have the record for it.

 

[Solipsis]

I don't how people say there is no evidence of ancient mushroom use, and therefore there was none.

Not sure if anyone claimed evidence of absence, can you elaborate or quote?

 

[jhoppa]

To sum up this thread:

* It is plausible that ancient folk on the British Isles could have used mushrooms, and speculation on the topic is within the realm of reasonability.

* Plausible or no, there is no actual evidence that psychedelic mushrooms were ever in use by the folk of the British Isles in any kind of systematic way until the last century or so.

Unless we've missed a glaring bit of evidence or someone is a scholar currently working on this topic in-depth, I'm not sure there's much else to be said on the matter.

 

[Lab-Test Monkey]

http://politico.ie/health/1645-parties-united-on-swift-magic-mushroom-ban.html

EXCERPT FROM ABOVE ARTICLE:
There is widespread evidence that the mushrooms, while officially frowned upon by the powerful church and largely overlooked by the systematic Irish folklore collectors of the 1920s and 30s, had formed a quiet subculture in Ireland for thousands of years. A prestigious Harvard academic, Thomas Reidlinger, has linked some of Ireland's most important myths and mythical characters, especially the CuChulainn tales, to "magic" mushrooms. Other research by Irish historians and folklorists suggests further links to ancient Celtic druids. Peter McGuire

I can't access the writings from Thomas Reidlinger but perhaps someone with university database access or in a larger city may be able to locate the hard copy?


As far as I know Druids were the knowledge holders/often leaders for the tribes and past history and use of plants for religious/spiritual healing and knowledge were passed down verbally from master to apprentice and the knowledge guarded closely from outsiders to the tribes. There was intense warfare from many different tribes back then from Brits, Picts, Goths, Scots, Romans and probably others who would regularly conduct raids and land grabs from the sea. The Romans executed as many druids as they could to destroy the culture and power they held and to solidify their own hold on the British Isles so much of the possible evidence (this history through storytelling) was forever lost.

 

[webbykevin]

I mean lack of proof or factual evidence has not deterred the christians or the muslims or the jews, there is no evidence whatsoever that jesus or moses or mohamed existed, in fact there is much evidence to the contrary but people will kill you for saying that.

 

[Dondante]

"In Ploughing the Clouds, Peter Lamborn Wilson suggests that the ancient Celts of Ireland may have possessed a “Soma” ceremony similar to one described in the Rig Veda, one of the oldest scriptures in the world. Written in India in 1500 BC, the Rig Veda praises a holy plant called Soma or “magic mushroom” that grants the drinker enlightenment and ecstasy. By comparing Celtic myth and folklore with the Rig Veda, he uncovers an Irish branch of the great Indo-European tradition of psychedelic (or “entheogenic”) shamanism, and even reconstructs some of its secret rituals. He uses this comparative material to illuminate the deep meaning of the Soma-function in all cultures: the entheogenic origin of “poetic frenzy,” the link between intoxication and inspiration."

I read this book years ago. IIRC, it was quite speculative, but interesting nonetheless.

 

[Solipsis]

Interesting, good contributions!

 

[webbykevin]

This is turning into a really great thread.

 

[Ismene]

the Rig Veda praises a holy plant called Soma or “magic mushroom”

I don't think you can say Soma "or magic mushroom". No-one knows what Soma was - I've heard just about everything from ephedra containing plants to syrian rue.

I think the druid theories the same kind of theories that say Christianity was based on a mushroom cult, which you can read books about. They're full of stuff like "You know that halo you sometimes see around Jesus's head? It looks a bit like a mushroom doesn't it? So that means Jesus was on mushrooms". No shit.

It's so far-fetched and bizarre that you really have to have the mindset that "i will blindly believe everything this man says" before it can make any sense.

the entheogenic origin of “poetic frenzy,” the link between intoxication and inspiration."

I don't think there was any link. I think it's modern-day people who've seen hippies dancing at festivals assuming "That's what they used to do a thousand years ago too". I don't think ancient peoples enjoyed getting stoned out of their mind or saw it as something positive. They would be highly religious, terrified of "demons" and "spirits" and their most likely reaction to a psychedelic experience would be blind terror that the devil had possessed them. Or terror that they had lost their mind and done massive damage to their minds and bodies. Remember, modern day people know these drugs don't harm you - someone 1000 years ago had no idea what the fuck they did to you.

People 1000 years ago also lived in blind terror of people in positions of power. You arn't going to go out in the street dancing round stoned on mushrooms if the local preist is going to find out - because he'll have you hung, drawn and quartered and your innards fed to the dogs while you watch with your last laboured breaths.

 

[Solipsis]

There remains the issue if we are looking for proven history or plausibilities and possibilities. My stance is that technically speaking there seems to be a lack of actual evidence, but there is so much more to say like in these latter posts. I disagree that you can compare christianity with pagan religions because with druids and wicca you have people that for rituals scour the bushes and gather psychoactives to put on altars and to consume. Not that I am closely familiar with these belief systems but they are closely connected to nature and not institutionalized 'revelation', correct?
If there are psilocybian mushrooms to be found in the country, do you suppose these people missed it completely for - ...who knows how long? Same for Amanita's.
My money is on mushrooms being taken as part of some folklore culture, not even purely because of any pixies or other entities because the raving madmen who came up with such magical stories don't necessarily have had to been under the influence, or not necessarily of psilocybin. Although I still find that likely.
Story-telling is a big thing, the more primitive the culture the more basic the methods of transference... and allegories are also classical ways to use myth to teach metaphorical lessons. Stories about elves and pixies can be symbolical so I am not sure if that counts as evidence (which is not even the same as proof) for psychoactives playing a part.

There is the possibility that psilocybes were known but rejected in certain cultures because of supposed negative or evil associations. That might just depend on whether the culture-formers had a good or bad trip right?

Anyway my opinion follows the general rule that if there are plants or fungi or animals that are abundant in a certain region of the world, if that region is occupied by a culture given enough time they are bound to discover them. Even if they do not catalogue everything, something like those mushrooms is significant enough to get a special treatment. I am not talking about something like ginormous rainforests where there are an extreme number of species of organisms - something might be overlooked there.

I thought theories about christianity being based on mushroom trips to be funny and at least amusing, but I recently saw the documentary Zeitgeist and thought the claims about christianity being based largely on astrology to actually be credible.

 

[Foreigner]

^ I'm just wondering what you mean by "actual evidence". It's not like they are going to find a cave of ancient corpses surrounded by mushrooms. Archeology might not be able to provide direct evidence, but the sociological and anthropological investigations (i.e. folklore, legends, etc.) can reveal a lot.

Everywhere in the world that magic mushrooms grow, there is some evidence that the indigenous people have used them. The British Isles used to have a vibrant, earth-based society. Mushrooms grow there. I don't think it's unreasonable to connect the dots. Even if it wasn't a highly ritualized thing, there were surely individuals who did them. European herbalism was very advanced prior to the Burning Times and mushrooms were surely known about.

Aside from spiritual medicine, most species of magic mushrooms do wonders to cleanse the lymph system, and for various other ailments. They have been used as physical medicine as much as spiritual medicine.

 

[Folley]

I mean lack of proof or factual evidence has not deterred the christians or the muslims or the jews, there is no evidence whatsoever that jesus or moses or mohamed existed, in fact there is much evidence to the contrary but people will kill you for saying that.

lmao.. said in a true tone of ignorance. There are historical records of both of those men living, and no I don't mean the Bible or Qur'an. The Roman's have Jesus's execution archived. Whether you believe he was the Son of God is one thing, but denying his existence is completely ignorant.

 

[webbykevin]

lmao.. said in a true tone of ignorance. There are historical records of both of those men living, and no I don't mean the Bible or Qur'an. The Roman's have Jesus's execution archived. Whether you believe he was the Son of God is one thing, but denying his existence is completely ignorant.

Yeh OK - you got me there lol ! - I was being reactive, I hope you still get my point eh, but thanks for the reality check bro

(I would be interested to read that roman document if you can provide a link to it.).

cheers

 

[mahoosive bendah]

They would be highly religious, terrified of "demons" and "spirits" and their most likely reaction to a psychedelic experience would be blind terror that the devil had possessed them. Or terror that they had lost their mind and done massive damage to their minds and bodies. Remember, modern day people know these drugs don't harm you - someone 1000 years ago had no idea what the fuck they did to you.

.

Why are you so sure about this ?
Would you find it hard to believe that Amazonian tribes use[d] oral DMT ? Why would pre-christian europeans be so different ?

Yeah once the Romans brought The Cult of SuperJew to the UK the knowledge and use of shrooms wouldve gone underground, if not wiped out completely, but remember that the 'devil' is a creation of the the church to turn people away from the nature spirits they were previously comfortable with

NSFW:

another thought, which may belong in another thread is - why do the tribes that still use psychedelics treat thier fellow man like shit ?
Look at the the way some amazonian tribes treat thier women and children like 2nd class citizens or the way pygmies are sometimes treated as slaves....i wonder what, if anything, this says about us, them, psychedelic 'enlightenment' and progress

 

[webbykevin]

"In Ploughing the Clouds, Peter Lamborn Wilson suggests that the ancient Celts of Ireland may have possessed a “Soma” ceremony similar to one described in the Rig Veda, one of the oldest scriptures in the world. Written in India in 1500 BC, the Rig Veda praises a holy plant called Soma or “magic mushroom” that grants the drinker enlightenment and ecstasy. By comparing Celtic myth and folklore with the Rig Veda, he uncovers an Irish branch of the great Indo-European tradition of psychedelic (or “entheogenic”) shamanism, and even reconstructs some of its secret rituals. He uses this comparative material to illuminate the deep meaning of the Soma-function in all cultures: the entheogenic origin of “poetic frenzy,” the link between intoxication and inspiration."

I read this book years ago. IIRC, it was quite speculative, but interesting nonetheless.

I tried tracking down a pdf or a torrent for it but no luck yet, I did however find this which is a few good extracts on the topic....
http://csp.org/chrestomathy/plouging_the.html

 

[Ismene]

Would you find it hard to believe that Amazonian tribes use[d] oral DMT ? Why would pre-christian europeans be so different ?

True, pre-christians might have a better chance - I don't think post-christians would be that impressed with getting stoned tho. As far as I'm aware British christianity has always been pretty puritan.

Regarding "tribal use" of psychedelics, even in Mesoamerica it wasn't like the entire tribe were taking mushrooms - if you read about Maria Sabina, she was pretty much the only person in the entire village who took mushrooms, and she wasn't taking them to get stoned, she was taking them as a means of diagnosing illness like a witchdoctor. It wasn't "lets all get stoned and watch a movie". So when you talk about tribal "mushroom use" or "ayahuasca use" you have to be careful about what you actually mean. I used to think everyone sat round and got stoned together but when you read around you find it was a lot more limited and strict.

So I suppose you'd need a motivation for the druids to take mushrooms in Britain - perhaps one head druid might have used them as a means of diagnosing illness. I tend to think primitive man would've been frightened rather than interested in psychedelics tho. Particularly mushrooms - which tend to be pretty poisonous in the UK.

 

[edzeppelin]

Yeah once the Romans brought The Cult of SuperJew to the UK
[/NSFW]

LMAO Never heard that particular take. Makes me think of Jesus as a muscle-bound know-it-all... Yeah, dat's right, our guys da messiah.. you godda problum wit dat? hehe


and just to totally derail serious discussion The Bishop

 

[webbykevin]

if you read about Maria Sabina, she was pretty much the only person in the entire village who took mushrooms,

Wrong !

"The velada would begin in total darkness so the visions would be bright and clear. After the mushrooms were adorned and blessed by María Sabina, she would slowly pass each one through the swirling smoke of burning Copal incense. The mushrooms are always consumed in pairs of two, signifying one male and one female. Each participant in a ceremony consumes five to six pairs; though more will be given if requested. Because the spiritual energies of the sabia would always dominate the velada, María Sabina would normally consume twice as many mushrooms as her voyagers, sometimes up to twelve pairs."

http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_article6.shtml

 

[Incunabula]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I don't how people say there is no evidence of ancient mushroom use, and therefore there was none.

You can't conclude if it did or didn't happen, just that we don't have the record for it.

I don't really think that's how it works in archeology......

I think most serious archeologists amd historians work under the assumption that "Absence of evidence is evidence of absence" and it stays like that untill evidence is procured.

Everything else falls under the field of "speculations and musings", guesswork, as it were.

That's how science works! opposed to religion which is based on "faith".

I know, wouldn't it just be romantic to imagine cloaked druids in the pale light of the full moon, imbibing psychedelic magical mushroom concoctions while chanting praise to mother earth.

Just because the past doesn't fit our own romantic ideas of how we would have liked it to have been, does'nt make fantasy and wishful thinking truth.

The celts, they didn't live that long ago. in brittain celtic culture prevailed from 500 BC to maybe 500 AD.
We know a lot about them. We know what they ate, which language they spoke, how they were dressed. We know all about their religion and what they called their gods. How they organized their societies etc.etc.

Although the didn't use any form of writting, we have first hand written accounts of their society and how they lived, written by romans and other foreigners who did have a writting system at the time.

I'm sure we would have known had they used mushroms as an entheogen.

So how would we know?

We would have known for the very same reasons that archeologists specializing in ancient indian societies like the maya indians know that did use entheogens.

I'm talking evidence like this:

Or even better this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xochipilli
proof of the Aztec's use of various entheogens.
or this:
http://www.fs.fed.us/wildflowers/ethnobotany/mindandspirit/teonanacatl.shtml

Xochipilli:

Or how about that pot full of 3000 years old mescaline that Shulgin talks about, found in some cave in north america....

Show me factual physical evidence of the celts using mushrooms as an entheogen! were is it? I don't see it.

Sure, you can speculate and make far fetched allegories from their myths, (like that book about irish soma8)) but fact is, had magic mushrooms held a special place for the celts (and the vikings too) I'm sure they would have been a part of their myths as them selves, as "mushrooms".

There would have been a mushroom god. Mushrooms in their ornaments and tapestries. Mushroom god figures would have been unearthed aswell. Surely.

So, some people will say "how could they not know of magic musrooms?" Well, I wonder that too. The thing is, I think we sometimes exaggerate the knowldge they would have had of plants. For instance, the indians of the rain forest who use ayahuasca didn't know that it was mimosa hostilis which was the crucial ingredient, they call/called banisteriopsis caapi ayahusca vine, they consider that the main ingredient. Not mimosa hostilis.

I think many places cultures have existed without knowing or using any of the entheogenic plants around them.

Now, the neolithic people of brittain, that's another story. We are now looking 5000 years back. There's a lot we don't know about these people. We know what they ate and how they were dressed. But we don't know the language they spoke or what they called themselves! We don't know what they called their gods, we only have an idea that they were sun worshippers maybe, and that the 2 solstices of the year was a very special holy day for them. These were the people who built the first stonehenge.

Is it plausible some of these people knew of, and used, magic musrooms? Sure, it's plausible.
I still think though, that we would have found some small statues of mushrooms, or something similar. Just some kind of indication that they used, mushrooms.

By the way, Webbykevin, far from everything on Erowid is factual, just saying.