Animals.

[Psychedalienation]

Not sure where this belongs, but I just want some cool theories from a bunch of smart people with experience, so I came here. Was thinking of the homeless forum but it relates to psychs.

What do you guys think of the animal perception in relation to the extreme psychedelic/meditative experience?
Animals possess no ego, no? So when we go through ego death on a chemical, and experience that bliss of being connected to literally everything and losing our sense of self, do you guys think animals like dogs are constantly in this state?

They run off instinct yes, but they show love and cannot think of themselves as far as we know.

What do you all think about this and have you thought about something like this before?

 

[Durzo1258]

You still recognise yourself in a mirror during ego death. So it's not that simple.
The only reason why you can experience ego death is being self aware. You have a different state to compare it to. And in my experience ego death felt more like not being there, but still somewhat existing. One time on LSD my sober mate asked all 3 of us tripping how are we, two other replied normally, I turned to him and said, "Don't ask me how I am, I"m not here. So at the same time I was and wasn't there.

 

[Psychedalienation]

Well of course, but animals cannot compare their state to anything else. I'm more asking do you think their state that they are used to is similar or the same to our ego death state, because in reality we are all connected. For them, it is just existing. Because they simply exist. We exist but because we are sentient and can think for ourselves, are constantly distracted by society and thoughts racing through our heads and get that reminder that we are all Nature when we undergo ego death. Like when you breakthrough on DMT, you lose all complete sense of self. You can see yourself in the mirror, yes, but I mean in the sense of WHO you are, not what you look like in the mirror.

Do you understand what I mean? I find it hard to type my thoughts accurately all of the sudden xD

 

[blistersinthedark]

Where do you get the idea that non-human animals have no ego and no sense of self?

 

[Durzo1258]

Well it's normal when talking about ego death to have hard time dressing it in words.
What do you mean we are connected ?
But no, I don't think their state is similar to what we experience during ego death, because even during an intense ego death a spark of you is there, I don't know how to describe it either. What makes you you may not be there, but you're not reduced to a basic instincts of eat, survive and reproduce, ego death is accompanied by deep thoughts and self realisations. Animals don't have those. And I think those thoughts and realisations are possible because your consciousness while heavily altered is still there. You just look at things from outside of "I".

Where do you get the idea that non-human animals have no ego and no sense of self?

Most of them don't. Very few can species tell they are looking at themselves when facing a mirror not another one of their kind. So I assume he means those that don't recognise themselves in a mirror .

 

[Psychedalienation]

From the fact that their brains are running on instinct only and all behave very similarly. But I have never officially researched it so idk maybe they do? And they just can't communicate to us for us to understand?

 

[Psychedalienation]

I have heard that if you wander out into a forest alone for a year, you come out with the self realization that we are all connected. We are all the same energy. Trees, humans, animals, etc. And okay that is an interesting opinion. I personally can't agree or disagree because we don't know what their state of mind is like because no human has ever been a dog and/or been able to tell the story of it but perhaps they have a state of mind that is neither and something we cannot understand and will never be able to understand as human beings?

But my theory is that if we are all connected, but humans have altered their perception with technology and societal improvement, then what would we be like without all that? The same as dogs and other animals with just more learning potential, right?

 

[Durzo1258]

From the fact that their brains are running on instinct only and all behave very similarly. But I have never officially researched it so idk maybe they do? And they just can't communicate to us for us to understand?

Pump the breaks there big shoots. Humans run on instincts too, put a human in a life threatening situation and your instincts will put you in a fight or flight mode when your conscious brain won't have much to tell. Hell what do you think happens when someone throws something at you and you sway away before your conscious brain even realised what happens ? Or you caught something falling with a hand movement faster than ever ? Or someone said something, you didn't quite get it, but before you even finished saying "what?" you knew what they said as if something in your head heard it and repeated it for you? It's all your subconscious, primitive reptile brain taking over or helping it's big smart, slow brother out. Subject of instincts and subconsciousness is much deeper then this.
If you like to read, I recommend Blindsight and Echopraxia by Petter Watts.

But my theory is that if we are all connected, but humans have altered their perception with technology and societal improvement, then what would we be like without all that? The same as dogs and other animals with just more learning potential, right?

There are tribes out there that barely invented a wheel, they would know if that's the case.

 

[Psychedalienation]

We run on instincts yes of course! I never meant to say we didn't. But it appears that animals like dogs PURELY run off instinct. Exclusively. They eat, run, shit, piss, kill, etc. Whereas we humans feel BAD for doing things because we are worried about what others will think and because we have a conscience. Animals don't feel that way, they just do. When we lose our ego, how can we feel the way we do if we do not even know who WE are? That's what intrigues me about the comparison of ego death and the "other" animals' experience.

Thank you for the recommendation, I will look into it!

 

[Durzo1258]

We run on instincts yes of course! I never meant to say we didn't. But it appears that animals like dogs PURELY run off instinct. Exclusively. They eat, run, shit, piss, kill, etc. Whereas we humans feel BAD for doing things because we are worried about what others will think and because we have a conscience. Animals don't feel that way, they just do. When we lose our ego, how can we feel the way we do if we do not even know who WE are? That's what intrigues me about the comparison of ego death and the "other" animals' experience.

Thank you for the recommendation, I will look into it!

Animals feel bad too, have you ever seen a dog that broke something and kept looking away, avoiding eye contact because it knows it did something bad. It may not be the same level as us humans, but it's not like they don't have that at all. And even in the biggest case of ego death we still have thoughts deeper then other primates can aspire to. In fact we have thoughts and realisations about ourselves that are depper then we do when sober. You are the opposite of eat, fuck survive.

 

[Psychedalienation]

I have undergone ego death one time, during a nightmare trip in which I didn't even know the definition of ego death at the time and thought I was dying lol. So maybe I don't TRULY understand the concept of ego death like I thought I did. And I don't personally believe dogs "feel bad", I think they have a much smaller learning potential than us, but still have basic discipline skills. They get scolded, and maybe next time they won't do it because they are powerless to the discipline. Their only option is to stop and they usually do.

 

[Durzo1258]

And I don't personally believe dogs "feel bad", I think they have a much smaller learning potential than us, but still have basic discipline skills. They get scolded, and maybe next time they won't do it because they are powerless to the discipline. Their only option is to stop and they usually do.

That kind of thinking isn't going to help. I don't mean when you discipline them, there are videos of people asking dogs in calm sweet voice, what did you do ? did you do this ? What happened to the pillow, and the dog looks away knowing it done something wrong. Sorry to put this like that but you need to get of your high horse human. Don't forget, you're an animal, the only difference is your intelligence, but animals like dolphins are closer to us humans in terms of intelligence then to a hamster for example.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

From the fact that their brains are running on instinct only and all behave very similarly. But I have never officially researched it so idk maybe they do? And they just can't communicate to us for us to understand?

humans don't act much different in my opinion. work, get money, get resources, get females, play. I would have to say that all mammals are pretty much alike. They feel love. Love is just an evolutionary trait due to social cooperation favoring survival of certain species. Its not that special like we think and I believe that animals feel such things as well.

 

[Efoj]

From the fact that their brains are running on instinct only and all behave very similarly.

I once had two hamsters that had completely different personalities, one was confident and liked people, the other one would easily feel in danger and bite any human being.

Not to mention dogs, dolphins, primates etc, all with brain activity that's much more complex than a hamster's.

I can't remeber ever being anything other than a human so I'd be very skeptical about any statement about animals having or not an ego or a sense of self. That kind of humility, of thinking another being's experience might as well be more complex than mine, is part of the lesson I learned with psychedelics. And I'm skeptical about that lesson too, of course.

 

[Xorkoth]

Have you ever gotten to know an animal? In my opinion, many animals have a sense of self. Sure, they don't think in as advanced a way as we do, but a dog, or a cat, or a bear, or a fox, or a dolphin, or a whale, or many others... it's "like" something to be them. They're individuals, each is unique and has a personality. To me I can't imagine how anyone who has gotten to know an animal could see otherwise. I've heard this view you're espousing quite a lot over the years and I really don't get it. What makes us so special that we're the only species that isn't automatons? What about our closest relatives, chimpanzees? They can learn sign language. It seems abundantly, irrevocably clear to me that we are not unique in having awareness or even self-awareness. I mean, the mirror test is a shitty way to measure that IMO (like, even if something isn't smart enough to figure out it's looking at itself in the mirror, why does that mean they have no sense of self?), but dolphins can pass the mirror test. Their brains are large, their cerebral cortexes are smaller than ours but their language centers are 4 times as large. We've shown they have unique names for themselves. How could a creature with complex communication abilities and names and complex social structure be an automaton?

To me this idea is just human arrogance. We're animals too. We just have a few advantages, namely, our brain/cerebral cortex size, and our hands, with opposable thumbs. Maybe if dolphins had hands, the world would be very different. Our hands are the main reason for a whole lot of stuff.

 

[Cudi]

But if they have no ego to begin with, they cannot be granted with the insights gained when the ego goes from being full fledged to nearly obliterated. When humans are presented with ego death (not even actually death, the ego never dies but it can change from experience), we are able to see through the veil of how much of a hindrance our ego is to us psychologically in every day life causing suffering. This is how the insights are revealed to us. It would be wonderful to see the results of psychedelics on let's say, a coyote. But, the non-human animal mind I think is still a great mystery to us in many ways.

 

[pupnik]

the ego is not a thing, it is a grab bag concept from Freud, it has no solidity, and ego death is a different grab bag concept with no single manifestation, similar to the concept of break through which fails to have any consensus in open discussion.

if simpler terms are used, animals are much closer to humans than imagined, except for typing and word-smithing in general.

they definitely have a strong sense of self and their relation to others, and to others from other species as well as their own.
They are certainly subject to sensory and memory modification on psychedelics just as we are and differently subject, just as we are.

 

[Volsam]

the ego is not a thing, it is a grab bag concept from Freud, it has no solidity, and ego death is a different grab bag concept with no single manifestation..

^^^ Precisely! The ego exist as a memory accumulation, so when the drug strong enough (but the one that would leave you aware) to close the access to these memories for the conscious mind is entered, the human mind enters "ego death". Curious condition of being aware of being alive without recognizing the form, without awarer...

I have worked with animals for many years and ALL of them have ego. It's just not as big as humans egos but it follows absolutely the same traits. Animals world perception is somewhat similar to 4-5 year old human baby IMO. They are very affectionate!

And I've also seen with my own eyes a dog and a white rat (on a separate occasions) were licking toads (bufotenin) and were obviously enjoying getting high! :D

 

[Durzo1258]

I think dismissing ego or saying is just a memory accumulation is massive oversimplification. Sentience and intelligence or nowhere near to be fully understood. Same goes for ego death, if it was that simple you could describe it better. It's like trying to describe sunrise to a person who was born blind. No matter how well you try the best you get is oversimplified concept that does not do the experience any justice. Partially because human language is incapable of describing something the other person has never experienced. Trying to describe a profound experience with series of grunts is not going to work.

 

[Volsam]

Its all words...8)