Androgen Receptor Saturation by Steroids - Keep Testosterone Low?

[TrenE]

Hello,

When using testosterone together with a 19-nor steroid (trenbolone or nandrolone/deca) the 19-nor steroid has a higher binding affinity to the androgen receptor than testosterone. On a moderate to high dosage of 19-nor steroid (400mg-800mg) you could assume that all androgen receptors are saturated and if not then the free remaining androgen receptors will be occupied by the testosterone.

A general recommendation is to use a ratio of testosteron to 19-nor of 2:1 to 1:1.

But if all androgen receptors are already saturated by 19-nor steroid and maybe some of the testosterone, what will happen with the rest of the free not binded testosterone?

As I have understood - please correct me, if I am wrong - the free testosterone will convert to DHT and to estradiol (which we have to encounter with an aromatase inhibitor (AI), if it increases to much)

In conclusion maybe it is more effective and safe (we do not neet to use an aromatase inhibitor) in a cycle of testosterone and 19-nor to keep the ratio of testosterone to 19-nor steroid 1:1 or even lower just to produce enough of estrogen and add some DHT-derivate like masteron/drostanolone for the positive effect on muscle growth and against the negative side-effects on libido.

Example:
1g testosterone
500mg trenbolone
VS
500mg testosterone
500mg trenbolone
250mg masteron/drostanolone

But what happens if androgen receptors are saturated and there is still free DHT (and testosterone) which is not binded? Which effects does the the free DHT have?

 

[Genetic Freak]

Hello,

When using testosterone together with a 19-nor steroid (trenbolone or nandrolone/deca) the 19-nor steroid has a higher binding affinity to the androgen receptor than testosterone. On a moderate to high dosage of 19-nor steroid (400mg-800mg) you could assume that all androgen receptors are saturated and if not then the free remaining androgen receptors will be occupied by the testosterone.

But if all androgen receptors are already saturated by 19-nor steroid and maybe some of the testosterone, what will happen with the rest of the free not binded testosterone?

But what happens if androgen receptors are saturated and there is still free DHT (and testosterone) which is not binded? Which effects does the the free DHT have?

There is the option free test and or DHT could be taken up and bound to SHBG if not bound to receptor, a further possibility is that any excess will be metabolised via CYP3A4 and other metabolic enzymes etc..

 

[TrenE]

Thanks for your answer.

Does this mean free testosterone and free DHT have no beneficial effect in terms of muscle growth so that you should lower dosages of especially testosterone? But how you can recognize that receptors are saturated?

 

[Swim15]

By definition free test or DHT would be unbound.

I think the main thing here is that there isn’t any research on when all AR’s are saturated and, if I had to guess, then it’s likely never all at once and is something more like an equilibrium reaction or the curve you see with enzyme reactions and the Km constant.

I don’t think it’s likely, however, that all AR’s would be bound at anywhere near those doses. Pros are often running upwards of 4-6 grams, many times much more than that, and they wouldn’t do that if they stopped growing at 2g a week.

I think you got it backwards though as the recommendation I’ve typically seen is test:tren in a 1:2 ratio or something similar to keep estrogen exacerbated sides low in the presence of tren related prolactin increases.

 

[TrenE]

I get your points, sounds logical.

I hear often the ratio test:tren 2:1 because of the reason to encounter libido issues by DHN-conversion of tren. You can encounter this by DHT. So either increase test (will increase DHT) or add some DHT-derivate like drosta.

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Libido issues by polactin can be handled via caber, but for me tren does not raise prolactin as much as deca so no or a very low dose of caber is enough (0.25mg e7d) to keep it in reference.

For example on 400mg tren only 0.25mg caber e3.5d leads to nearly 0ng/ml prolactin. On 600mg deca 0.25mg caber e5d leads to 2.7ng/ml. Feel free to post your experience even if it is offtopic.

 

[Swim15]

Yeah at that point a lot of it is highly individual. My personal experience is sky high libido on tren regardless of test dose (I just get more sides like excess heat/night sweats and sometimes irritability with high test) and have never used prami/caber. Every now and then I’ll talk to a guy who has libido issues though.

Would be nice to have more human research on a lot of this stuff but sadly won’t happen.

 

[Genetic Freak]

By definition free test or DHT would be unbound.

I think the main thing here is that there isn’t any research on when all AR’s are saturated and, if I had to guess, then it’s likely never all at once and is something more like an equilibrium reaction or the curve you see with enzyme reactions and the Km constant. What the f*ck are you on about..??

I don’t think it’s likely, however, that all AR’s would be bound at anywhere near those doses. Pros are often running upwards of 4-6 grams, many times much more than that, and they wouldn’t do that if they stopped growing at 2g a week.

Free test won't stay free indefinitely, as stated it has various options: convert to estradiol, DHT, bind androgen receptor, or get broken down/metabolised and excreted..
Remember new androgen receptors are constantly being created, also once testosterone enters cytoplasm it converts to DHT anyway before binding AR..

Pro bodybuilders generally have vastly different genetics than the average gym rat, so to reference them seems pointless..