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Ancient psychonauts?

I

Ismene2

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Joined
Oct 29, 2018
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2,652
Outside of the obvious area in Mesoamerica where mushrooms and peyote grow has anyone ever seen any convincing evidence of early psychedelic use anywhere else in the world? Most of the "evidence" seems to be of the standard "he said he saw a burning bush and it talked to him - if that's not tripping I don't know what is dude". And then they have to come up with half baked drugs they might use like "you mix Syrian rue with a little alcohol and witch piss and look out! "

There was the Siberians using that mushroom with the red top but that took second place after vodka arrived and that African tribe using ibogaine but it seems pretty limited apart that.

I'm expecting tripsitter coming at me like a rottweiler..
 
Actually I agree that there was most likely use going back to the dawn of human consciousness. You should pick up and read a copy of "The Illustrated Secret History of the World" by Mark Booth IBSN 978-1-4683-1566-0.
 
Soma goes back to the Indus Valley, if I'm not mistaken, which should predate use in Siberia. Not even sure whether I got that from Mike Crowley or John Allegro.. ah the joys of inebriated reading, you get to read it all again at some point.. 8)
 
I'm not convinced that soma was psychedelic. It may have been, but I think a compelling case can also be made for it being the stimulant plant ephedra. There seems to be consensus that the Eleusinian mystery cult used a psychedelic sacrament, and possibly the Dionysean mystery cult. Some chemoarcheological evidence supports the use of ergot in that context. [See "The Immortality Key" by Brian Muraresku.] Michael A. Rinella has also written on this in his "Pharmakon: Plato, Drug Culture, and Identity in Ancient Athens."

Dale Pendell's "Pharmako/poeia" and "Pharmako/gnosis" cover a LOT of ground if you're interested in the topic. Great books, too. It seems like deliriants were widely used wherever they were found, although never uncontroversially, and almost always in low doses combined with alcohol and other drugs as an admixture.

There's some question of category here, too. What qualifies as a psychedelic in the context of your question? Intoxicants of all sorts were used by people in history whenever they encountered them, and the boundary about what was psychedelic seems blurry to me. Iboga, syrian rue, tobacco, amanita, wine, henbane, the list goes on. People have always been committed to changing their consciousness, employing combinations of breathing techniques, posture, caves, sacred landscapes, sacred spaces, drugs, extreme temperature change, pain, bodily mutilation, fasting, exposure, ritual, you name it to try to get where they want to go.
 
Ismene2 said:
I'm expecting tripsitter coming at me like a rottweiler..
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The%2BStory%2Bbehind%2Bthe%2Bphenomenon%2Bnamed%2BTechno%2BViking.jpg


The fact that our ancestors discovered countless plants, medicines and food from the world around them... it's not a logical leap in any sense to believe they also tripped on the plants they knew so well.

It still mystifies me on just how the South American natives discovered ayahuasca combo... these plants do not really coexist in the same habitat (?) they MUST have been doing a lot of experimentation!
 
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SnafuInTheVoid said:
It still mystifies me on just how the South American natives discovered ayahuasca combo... these plants do not really coexist in the same habitat (?) they MUST have been doing a lot of experimentation!
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come again? I mean don't the two coexist in the jungle? also weirdly enough, don't the shipibo say the plants just told them what to combo rather than them figuring it out via experimentation (not that i believe that..).

i'll never forget the smell of someones aya puke bucket spilling all over the floor near me onto my stuff, whilst i writhed around in existential agony trying to escape the jungle humidity and god awful smells. jesus.
 
Bella Figura said:
come again? I mean don't the two coexist in the jungle? also weirdly enough, don't the shipibo say the plants just told them what to combo rather than them figuring it out via experimentation (not that i believe that..).

i'll never forget the smell of someones aya puke bucket spilling all over the floor near me onto my stuff, whilst i writhed around in existential agony trying to escape the jungle humidity and god awful smells. jesus.
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No thanks...... :sus:
 
humans have been eating magic mushrooms since 10000 bc there is cave art of the specices found in that location in africa by cave men and trippy drawings they made of animals fused with animals after eating said mushroom.

Plato and Socrates were tripping there fucking balls off on lysergic acid amide in ergot.

South america mushrooms ayahusca peyote yopoo snuffs all manners of psychedelics were eaten dated to to even 3000 years ago.

Moses was smoking dmt extracted from a acacia bush with primitive chemistry same with zoroaster.

​

Jesus use to eat magic mushrooms went to india learnt meditation become self awakened to the fact everybody is god taught his teachings but the people did not understand them properly.

It is 100% a fact humans were most likely eating magic mushrooms for over 25000 years.
 
TripSitterNZ said:
humans have been eating magic mushrooms since 10000 bc there is cave art of the specices found in that location in africa by cave men and trippy drawings they made of animals fused with animals after eating said mushroom.

Plato and Socrates were tripping there fucking balls off on lysergic acid amide in ergot.

South america mushrooms ayahusca peyote yopoo snuffs all manners of psychedelics were eaten dated to to even 3000 years ago.

Moses was smoking dmt extracted from a acacia bush with primitive chemistry same with zoroaster.

​

Jesus use to eat magic mushrooms went to india learnt meditation become self awakened to the fact everybody is god taught his teachings but the people did not understand them properly.

It is 100% a fact humans were most likely eating magic mushrooms for over 25000 years.
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Maybe, but I'm gonna need citations. ;-)
 
TripSitterNZ said:
Moses was smoking dmt extracted from a acacia bush with primitive chemistry same with zoroaster.
Click to expand...

So he was using straight to base?


In all seriousness I think the answer is between the two extremes of "all significant moments of human growth were catalyzed by psychedelics," and "humans have never tripped outside of mesoamerica/siberia/africa".

I do think that feelings of wonder/mysticism/psychadelic imagery do not solely belong to the psychadelic realm. I think that to assume that humans cannot experience complex phenomena cheapens the telling of the human experience.

I will also say that humans have used means other than drugs to induce altered states for quite some time. Additionally mental states like schizophrenia and epilepsy were often seen as divinity, so these could contribute aware to "visionary art" of the past.

Although I could be wrong, I remember the synthesis for 25i-nbome was actually discovered in an alternate translation of a verse in the old testament.
 
Thanks! I was more hoping for peer-reviewed academic citations. I do like Grof (quite a bit!), but as he's a psychiatrist writing a book on psychedelics for a broad audience, I passed on reading that book. I just kind of assumed that he didn't get into the rigorous, interdisciplinary work that you need to build a solid case. It's a real pain, which is why most of the scholarship on topics like this is pretty weak.

I mean, let's say that Moses actually existed (that's a big assumption!) What definitive evidence could we possibly have about what one guy was doing 3600-3800 years ago? There's not much more evidence for Jesus's life and times (if he even existed.) I love the stories and I don't think that they're implausible, but I also haven't seen any evidence to persuade me that they are more than intriguing stories.
 
Skorpio said:
So he was using straight to base?


In all seriousness I think the answer is between the two extremes of "all significant moments of human growth were catalyzed by psychedelics," and "humans have never tripped outside of mesoamerica/siberia/africa".

I do think that feelings of wonder/mysticism/psychadelic imagery do not solely belong to the psychadelic realm. I think that to assume that humans cannot experience complex phenomena cheapens the telling of the human experience.

I will also say that humans have used means other than drugs to induce altered states for quite some time. Additionally mental states like schizophrenia and epilepsy were often seen as divinity, so these could contribute aware to "visionary art" of the past.

Although I could be wrong, I remember the synthesis for 25i-nbome was actually discovered in an alternate translation of a verse in the old testament.
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^ This. :)
 
Skorpio said:
So he was using straight to base?


In all seriousness I think the answer is between the two extremes of "all significant moments of human growth were catalyzed by psychedelics," and "humans have never tripped outside of mesoamerica/siberia/africa".

I do think that feelings of wonder/mysticism/psychadelic imagery do not solely belong to the psychadelic realm. I think that to assume that humans cannot experience complex phenomena cheapens the telling of the human experience.

I will also say that humans have used means other than drugs to induce altered states for quite some time. Additionally mental states like schizophrenia and epilepsy were often seen as divinity, so these could contribute aware to "visionary art" of the past.

Although I could be wrong, I remember the synthesis for 25i-nbome was actually discovered in an alternate translation of a verse in the old testament.
Click to expand...
Wait, where did you learn this about 25i-nbome?

This is the dissertation of the chemist Ralf Heim, who discovered or made 25i. If you cannot read German, translate it.

 
Some evidence came out in late 2020 which appears to suggest use of datura by indigenous peoples in California. Actually it more-or-less just backed up a previously existing theory about the use of jimson weed by Indian groups on the west coast for ritual purposes, as I have a book published in 1968 that mentions this

I agree with the broader point, though, that the hard evidence for psychedelic drug use in antiquity is very thin on the ground. With some exceptions, like Herodotus talking about the Scythian use of cannabis etc.
 
Burnt Offerings said:
Some evidence came out in late 2020 which appears to suggest use of datura by indigenous peoples in California. Actually it more-or-less just backed up a previously existing theory about the use of jimson weed by Indian groups on the west coast for ritual purposes, as I have a book published in 1968 that mentions this

I agree with the broader point, though, that the hard evidence for psychedelic drug use in antiquity is very thin on the ground. With some exceptions, like Herodotus talking about the Scythian use of cannabis etc.
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Chumash natives are nice people.

 
SnafuInTheVoid said:
The%2BStory%2Bbehind%2Bthe%2Bphenomenon%2Bnamed%2BTechno%2BViking.jpg


The fact that our ancestors discovered countless plants, medicines and food from the world around them... it's not a logical leap in any sense to believe they also tripped on the plants they knew so well.

It still mystifies me on just how the South American natives discovered ayahuasca combo... these plants do not really coexist in the same habitat (?) they MUST have been doing a lot of experimentation!
Click to expand...

Must admit it sounds impressive until you remember the rabies virus has figured out mammalian brain chemistry to the extent it can make you turn aggressive in order to attack and infect others. Compared to that combining plants and seeing what happens sounds a doddle.
 
So it sounds acceptable that these ancient people would have been so dedicated to tripping that they would eat dreadful shit like datura and ergot etc? For what reason? Remember the first thing the Spanish did on finding people using psychedelics was condemn them as heretics and kill them all. Europeans and middle East people with established monotheism would really be open to seeing "god" in plants?
 
And the health effects it might have as well - even today when there's overwhelming evidence at the click of a button the number of people willing to trip is pretty small. Take that back a thousand years to people terrified of the devil and filled with religious fears and they'd happily be smoking bongful after bongfull of acacia smoke?
 
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