• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

Amphetamine Neurotoxicity and Tolerance Reduction/Prevention III

Saw this one on reddit's /r/drugnerds today: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23056363

Modafinil by itself did not cause reactive gliosis and counteracted methamphetamine-induced microglial and astroglial activation. Modafinil also counteracted the decrease in tyrosine hydroxylase and dopamine transporter levels and prevented methamphetamine-induced increases in the pro-apoptotic BAX and decreases in the anti-apoptotic Bcl-2 protein expression. Our results indicate that modafinil can interfere with methamphetamine actions and provide protection against dopamine toxicity, cell death, and neuroinflammation in the mouse striatum.
 
Magnesium didn't work for me with d-amphetamine. What works for me is taking some kind of a sedative (alcohol or benzos work) shortly after the peak, or an opiate during the comedown; then the next day its like it never happened and I can take the same dose again and get the same results.

There is a large gray area between amphetamine "tolerance" and simply being burnt out. When your body wants to be done with the binge, it's done with the binge.. You could keep going of course, at the risk of going psychotic.

Taking chelated Mg can in principle do two things for amphet metabolism. First, it acts as a voltage-gated NMDA antagonist which, paradoxically, filters out the background noise from the stronger signals. Second, the anion with which the Mg has been chelated can effect excretion. Anions like malate, citrate, lactate and possibly tartrate have the effect of alkalinising the urine metabolically and therefore slowing down the elimination of amphet and many other substances. This is not quite the same as glugging down some antacid like NaHCO3, because all this will do is react with the stomach acid and perform neutralisation at that point. Metabolic alkalinisers have their effect further downstream (relying on liver breakdown) and are more effective at changing renal ph gradients, which is where most of the drug excretion occurs.
You do not want a slower elimination with amphetamine. Do you realize how long amphetamine's half-life is? The reason it stops producing desired effects after a certain point is not because there is less of the drug in the system, but because the CNS is tapped.. You may have noticed that eating a meal or taking a small nap after you thought you already came down can cause it to kick right back in again.

What you actually want is a faster elimination; that way, a portion of your dose has actually left your system after, say, 6 hours, and taking more will actually make it kick back in again. I'd say when there's more than about 150mg in your system, taking more just doesn't really do anything positive -- if you actually want to binge, and you did something like take a proton pump inhibitor or swallowed a few tablespoons of baking soda or something else to totally mess with the drug's elimination, you'll end up accruing an amount in your system far larger than you think, and if you've got 200mg sitting in your system due to it building up from amph's obscene half-life and take another 30mg thinking its actually going to do anything, you're fooling yourself.
You want to aim for lower doses and faster eliminations... had about 5 years experience with this stuff and I swear by it.

I've also read that d-amph doses of 100mg+ cross a threshold where it acts as a DRI in addition to causing exocytosis of dopamine vesicles, and that's been consistent with my own experience. I always try to aim for that amount in my system - no more, no less. It really feels like reaching the next plateau, and is much more mellow and euphoric than what lower-end doses provide.

But seriously though, you don't want a longer elimination with amphetamine. It's already going to be romping you for 12 hours and you're going to be lucky if you can get to sleep at all no matter what time of the day you took it.

I recently found out about an upcoming work related 10-panel, so I've been off anything scheduled recently so as to not piss hot. (I am scripted trazodone, so if they don't follow up with GC/MS I theoretically could take amps and probably have the positive overlooked, but I don't want to risk it in case they do go GC/MS). Sodium butyrate testing delayed another week or two. At least it has served to prove I'm not addicted ;)

On the other hand though, I recently found this rather shocking study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2701286/

"methylphenidate has the intriguing ability to provide neuroprotection from the neurotoxic effects of methamphetamine"
It's true; DRIs like cocaine, methylphenidate, and even ginseng have some kind of weird blocking effect against amphetamine and methamphetamine. But the peripheral effects still compound with each other, which leads to a really horrible experience. So although methylphenidate might provide neuroprotection, its not worth the agonizing pain your entire body will be in for 5 days afterwards.
 
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It's been known for a while no? I believe reuptake inhibitors in general have a tendency to counteract the effects and protect against releasing agents' "damage".

SSRIs, for example, have been used post-MDMA to reduce the comedown and I believe some studies have shown them reduce associated neurotoxicity. Using SSRIs BEFORE MDMA will, on the other hand, block most of MDMA's serotonergic effects.

In my experience, the same dynamics are involved between (meth)amphetamine (as a NDRA) and methylphenidate (as a NDRI). Methylphenidate taken before or simultaneously with amphetamines will result in much reduced effects out of amphetamines. On the other hand, methylphenidate dosed right after an amphetamine binge will extend the stimulant effects and make the 'crash' smoother while providing neuroprotection.

I'm pretty sure bupropion would also provide neuroprotection from (meth)amphetamines' potential neurotoxic effects. However the longer half-life from bupropion makes it undesirable in this case where not merely neuroprotection is desired but tolerance prevention (the point is to get the most out of amphetamines with the least damage right?). I've combined bupropion and dextroamphetamine in the past and the effects of dex on a mg-to-mg basis were MUCH reduced.

But yes, methylphenidate or bupropion following an amphetamine (or methylphenidate/bupropion + an SSRI if methamphetamine) binge is very likely to provide some degree of neuroprotection.

I guess it depends what your intent is; neuroprotection from occasional high-dose binge or tolerance prevention from chronic low-dose.

When should the reuptake inhibitors be taken? I mean if I remember correctly methamphetamine enters the core via pump so when i.e. methylphenidate blocks the pump the effects of methamphetamin decrease/disappear right?

So lets say you took methamphetamine. and instead of redosing with methamphetamine you take i.e. methylphenidate. That would help?
 
I've generally been doing modafinil around 30 min before meth. Subjectively speaking, it produces slightly reduced peak euphoria, but a much cleaner and longer lasting "peak" of stimulation. Overall duration is unaffected.

And different people want different elimination times... I'd love a 48 hour amphetamine some really busy weeks 8(
 
I don't know much about autophagy..but

Doesn't say tagamet lower amphetamine tolerance through similar mechanisms that potentiate opiates?

What about coQ10..?

-I could be wrong and dont have a source but doesn't this coenzyme potentiate opiates the same way as tagamet and also protects against free radicals and neurotoxity.

Another one could be ginkgo biloba.
-This is both a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, and also protects against neurotoxity.
 
Tagamet won't lower tolerance as much as it will increase bio-availability. Co-Q10 has already been heavily covered previously, and is neuroprotective and cardioprotective at appropriate dosages.

Ginkgo biloba is a non-selective MAOI and also has its own set of adverse effects, including being a probable carcinogen. It probably is neuroprotective through similar mechanisms as Modafinil though (reducing peak DA release). It's overall a pretty bad drug as selectivity for any effect goes. I'd definitely rather stick to selective agents like Selegiline as an MAOB-I and Modafinil (or a derivative, granted it isn't that selective as a DRI but has no other real adverse effects) as a DRI with my amp doses, thanks.

I'm starting to get a bit more into computational chemistry, and I hope to start running simulations on exactly how different amphetamine derivatives bind to all the various transporters soon. I'm still heavily intrigued by 2-FMA's lack of a "crash", and want to start getting some more semi-hard data than pure speculation on why, plus if there are derivatives that are even more ideal as functional stims (as I'm almost sure there have to be, geez the amphetamines are pretty poorly explored as stims after all, we're using a 129 year old drug for ADHD).

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As to the autophagy issue, I think more research will continue to come out tying the dopamine theory of schizophrenia, stimulant psychosis, sleep deprivation and amphetamines closer and closer together on upstream causes and downstream effects. IIRC modafinil increases autophagy, although I can't seem to find a citation now, I forget what exactly I'd been searching for when I ran across that. (Should have had more PRL-8-53 that day, amrite?) =D
 
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I think neurotoxicity influences the crash a lot...2-FMA does not have any?
 
People respond idiosyncratically to amphetamines, and some experience muted crashes while others don't. I think that this is more often an artifact of level of dosage, route of administration, and quantity of experience with stimulants than particular substance used. But sometimes personal neurochemistry matters greatly. I, for example, experienced pretty severe crashes even with my first few uses of classical stimulants. The trade-off was that I also experienced euphoria to a degree simply not possible in my sober experience.

ebola
 
I have no experience with 2-FMA, I meant to make it sound like I was asking?
 
At least for me on stimulant potency versus comedown basis, even controlling for other factors like RoA and not taking anything else, 2-FMA definitely has a lot less of a comedown than d-amp, lisdexamfetamin or d-meth.

Of course mixing modafinil reduces the comedown on all of them, but the effects are a lot less night/day with 2-FMA than say regular d-meth.

We're talking subjective effects, but as far as I'm concerned 40mg of 2-FMA mixed with 150mg of Armodafinil does not have any detectable comedown at all, and only very slight without the Armodafinil, with stimulant potency in the range of maybe 20mg Dexedrine, but it is a bit hard to equate.
 
2-FMA has a very prolonged comedown, that takes app. 3 times the time window of the onset (for me and others). That is why somebody could consider it being comedown-free. Why would it not have a comedown ? Do you think that this magic chemical 2-FMA is does not underlie the laws of cause and consequence ? Drug propaganda ...
 
At least for me on stimulant potency versus comedown basis, even controlling for other factors like RoA and not taking anything else, 2-FMA definitely has a lot less of a comedown than d-amp, lisdexamfetamin or d-meth.

Is it worth using as a medication for ADHD/other psychiatric diagnosis, compared to say, d-meth?
 
A lot of things would be super medications to d-meth. :p

ebola
 
I have a question that somewhat fits into the toxicity-prevention discussion. Would it be beneficial, if one takes a norepinephrine reuptake enhancer on the comedown of a dopamine releasing substance ? From my limited understanding the increased heartbeat on a comedown is caused by the synthesis of the excessive dopamine into noradrenaline (or because the depletion of dopamine happens before the depletion of noradrenaline ?). What would be the effects and risks in taking an NRE at the comedown ?
 
2-FMA has a very prolonged comedown, that takes app. 3 times the time window of the onset (for me and others). That is why somebody could consider it being comedown-free. Why would it not have a comedown ? Do you think that this magic chemical 2-FMA is does not underlie the laws of cause and consequence ? Drug propaganda ...

It all comes down to receptor binding, which is still not properly quantified for 2-FMA.

One hypothesis I've had is lower VMAT binding, which seems to be a common thing with "comedown-free" stims.

So I'll turn that around then, why are the stimulants like (ar)modafinil that some people don't report any comedown from after protracted use? There is nothing inherent in the "stimulant-ness" of a drug that causes a comedown, it is all a question of receptor up/downregulation, neurotoxicity, precursor and neurotransmitter depletion. There are no "comedown atoms" that are magically part of every stimulant molecule.

There are some newer compounds in the modafinil series out recently that display very potent and selective DRI properties, but I have yet to try.

I've been trying a lot more threshold doses of amphetamines recently, and can report the noticeable comedown also vanishes from meth and d-amp when you take the doses low enough. It's all a question of what concentration of what drug is required to achieve different effects.
 
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