(amph) inability to sleep unrelated to stimulant use?

[d1nach]

Is it possible/normal that you could have a inability to sleep unrelated to stimulant use or any known cause?

Suppose i took adderall xr dose 1 and adderall xr dose 2, coffee doses 1, 2, and 3, and nicotine use (in gum and chewing tobacco) all exactly the same in doses and almost at perfectly identical times everyday.

And

Everypart of my day exercise, wind down, eating ect. All meticulously logged and roughly identical day to day. With no identifiable new stress or anything.

For months straight with no issue sleeping. Then randomly being unable to sleep for roughly 3 hours after i was supposed to fall asleep.

From my perspective its chemicals that control sleep. So how is it possible this could happen? Could it be the stimulants? I just dont get it.

 

[Nicomorphinist]

Could it be the absolute quantity of dopamine circulating that contributes to this? Even if I am not taking oxycodone, which I essentially consider to be a de facto combination of morphine, codeine, and Bolivian Marching Powder, when I get my pain level down to 2 out of 10 or lower with narcotics, I get insomnia like my body is saying "We just fixed this! Don't go to sleep now --how will you enjoy it?"

 

[d1nach]

Thank you for your reply.

Thats what confuses me the dopamine and noradrenaline where basically at the same level as every previous day for months without trouble falling asleep.

So it be more like if you took your medical mixture at the same time and was able to do it everyday for months and could sleep everynight. Then one day you do exactly the same thing and now cant sleep. And your day hasnt really changed and you cant think of any new stressor.

 

[Nicomorphinist]

There was a long time where I used the extra wakefulness to get more done, and being more or less nocturnal anyways, I was able to get 45-120 minutes of sleep during the day, and then for many years I would sleep for 1-2 hours several times a day then get up, as after Hour 2, a lot of sleep is redundant or wasteful. When I went back to a more usual schedule, it took about 8 months for near physical collapse to happen, which is why over the years my pain doctors have given me secobarbitone, clomethiazole, or meprobamate/tybamate/carisoprodol for cases like that. What I really miss are the codeine, dihydrocodeine, and morphine-based barbiturates -- those were the cat's pyjamas! There were codeine-based bromides and salicylates too, and when I read of a hydrocodone-based barbiturate, I was inconsolable when I heard it was no longer manufactured. Not to mention methaqualone and glutethimide . . .

 

[Nicomorphinist]

Thank you for your reply.

Thats what confuses me the dopamine and noradrenaline where basically at the same level as every previous day for months without trouble falling asleep.

So it be more like if you took your medical mixture at the same time and was able to do it everyday for months and could sleep everynight. Then one day you do exactly the same thing and now cant sleep. And your day hasnt really changed and you cant think of any new stressor.

How much sleep were you usually getting? Is it possible that it could be more than is needed and that is part of it? As people get older the sleep requirement declines to as low as 3.5 hours per 24.

 

[d1nach]

Roughly 7-8 hours. On avg prob 7 hours 45 minutes. I plan everything and record everything. So i try to insure 8 hours because i have had serious mental health issues mostly depression and i know sleep is important so i really dont want to loose sleep. Because the times i couldnt sleep where the worst years of my life. I like control if i couldnt sleep due to a drug id be fine or a acute stress. But the idea of being unable to sleep without something i can control really freaks me out.

 

[d1nach]

Im mid 20s if that matters (sorry for double post editing my posts on my phone would just delete it)

 

[Nicomorphinist]

Roughly 7-8 hours. On avg prob 7 hours 45 minutes. I plan everything and record everything. So i try to insure 8 hours because i have had serious mental health issues mostly depression and i know sleep is important so i really dont want to loose sleep. Because the times i couldnt sleep where the worst years of my life. I like control if i couldnt sleep due to a drug id be fine or a acute stress. But the idea of being unable to sleep without something i can control really freaks me out.

Is there a strong correlation betwixt the lost sleep and depression symptoms? I know that amount and quality of sleep is something the depressed people I know overlook, and indeed the first symptom a couple of them have was sleeping 12-19 hours a day -- but of course you are well ahead of the game with knowledge about that. It is about three hours you are missing each night? Night after night, or does it happen sporadically?

Any possibility of a hypomanic or manic feature to the depression which may be cranking up and depriving you of more sleep? That is how a lot of those episodes start, like two weeks of waking up 15 minutes earlier each day and then no sleep at all and the manic episode turns the corner into being full-blown.

So in ones mid-20s, the brain is just completing its development and then the decline in need for sleep begins. If it has no depressive impact, do you think six hours a night may do it? Also, if it is anything other than pitch black in the room and/or you have a mask, that can cause problems too. I have always felt deep relaxation from the noise of a fan, radio on an empty channel or a white noise generator and fall asleep quickly, in fact the difference can be seen on an EEG and a functional MRI. That was when I was seeing a sleep specialist in the name of due diligence as my doctors wanted to cover all the bases, and sleep and chronic pain's connexions are very easy for even doctors to overlook . . . this was when I was sleeping 1-2 hours two to four times a day and getting even more rest than before, and I think I may have part of a paragraph in a medical journal article about it somewhere, because the doctors were very astonished and wanted to know how I did it. Even without drugs I also have things like low blood pressure which settles at about 95/50 mmHg, a baseline body temperature of 36.5 rather than 37°C and other things of the sort, which they believed may be connected but it was hard to say how . . .

 

[d1nach]

It was just one night. And i dont if there is a connection between the sleep and depression. I also hated highschool and was on different meds. And everynight i have youtube playing on a low volume i fall asleep to. Without and audio my thoughts can start racing. I use a fan to. I also went to a sleep doctor who said i have narcolepsy but the adderall and modafinil seem to fix it. I know one day doesnt seem like much and im prob over thinking but in my head one day o no if i dont find a cause it will just spiral out of control. Which prob is making it seem catastrophic and unreasonable. But i like control. Control makes me feel calm.

 

[Nicomorphinist]

It was just one night. And i dont if there is a connection between the sleep and depression. I also hated highschool and was on different meds. And everynight i have youtube playing on a low volume i fall asleep to. Without and audio my thoughts can start racing. I use a fan to. I also went to a sleep doctor who said i have narcolepsy but the adderall and modafinil seem to fix it. I know one day doesnt seem like much and im prob over thinking but in my head one day o no if i dont find a cause it will just spiral out of control. Which prob is making it seem catastrophic and unreasonable. But i like control. Control makes me feel calm.

Insomnia can get away from people really quickly, so I think the concern is largely warranted and the search for the cause, if any, could be rather important.

Am I assuming correctly that adjusting the dose and/or dosing regimen on the Adderall is not something that sounds all that useful in this case or the doctors have tried yet?

I have noticed that in many countries that codeine and GHB, which is called sodium oxybate, are used as adjuvants to dextroamphetamine, methamphetamine, amphetamine, pyrovalerone, any aminorexes still in use, methylphenidate and other primary anti-narcolepsy drugs, partially for what you are describing, I believe.

 

[d1nach]

Those are really good points. You calmed me down ima just give it a few days to see if its a fluke. Thanks i was really bugging out.

 

[Zonxx]

There was a long time where I used the extra wakefulness to get more done, and being more or less nocturnal anyways, I was able to get 45-120 minutes of sleep during the day, and then for many years I would sleep for 1-2 hours several times a day then get up, as after Hour 2, a lot of sleep is redundant or wasteful. When I went back to a more usual schedule, it took about 8 months for near physical collapse to happen, which is why over the years my pain doctors have given me secobarbitone, clomethiazole, or meprobamate/tybamate/carisoprodol for cases like that. What I really miss are the codeine, dihydrocodeine, and morphine-based barbiturates -- those were the cat's pyjamas! There were codeine-based bromides and salicylates too, and when I read of a hydrocodone-based barbiturate, I was inconsolable when I heard it was no longer manufactured. Not to mention methaqualone and glutethimide . . .

Woah! Opiate based barbs!? That's something i would love to try!

 

[Zonxx]

In my earlier amphetamine days a dose as low as 10mg way early in the am, would keep me from feeling even tired all night long. Amp insomnia is one of the biggest negatives to them, adderall comedowns are pretty subtle you just feel the effects wearing off, nothing like meth where you feel absolutely depressed and drained for hours until youre able to fall asleep
Like nicomorph suggested and its suggested ALOT on BL and one of my close friends uses it, GHB you can also get Melatonin from your pharmacy, its a natural sleep aid.
The bright side is if amps are needed day to day, the insomnia suffered slowly fades away. But there ALWAYS will be some probably due to the half life being 12 hours.. they say effects last 8 hours tops, i say thats bullshit i wish i could have any more suggestions for you but i havent any that dont include addictive narcotics, however one of my friends on a high dose vyvanse daily is prescribed a type of benzo sleep aid its on the lower end of the strength spectrum i dont rememver the name.. but if prescribed i dont get why the doc didnt rx you smt to aid sleep

 

[MomaDance]

How much sleep were you usually getting? Is it possible that it could be more than is needed and that is part of it? As people get older the sleep requirement declines to as low as 3.5 hours per 24.

I have noticed this myself. When I was younger I needed at least a good 6-8 hours of sleep. Now there are periods where I can go days on end after getting 3-4 hours. I’m 42 years old btw