Opioids Advice...sub maintenance, to one day heroin use, back onto suboxone

[vajeeh]

Alright, so I consider myself fairly experienced, however I just wanted someone else's opinion that has first-hand experience with this.

I have been on suboxone maintenance, off and on for several years. When I am completely off, I am deep in IV heroin abuse. Most recently I have been on...since February (10 months). I am down to 4mg a day, I find it works better than 8mg. Anyway...every couple weeks, I tend to treat myself by seeing my dealer, and buying enough for a couple decent shots, to enjoy the day.

QUESTION:
When I do this, must I wait 24 hours to jump back on suboxone after my last shot? I do so anyway...out of fear of precipitated withdrawal, which I have experienced, however under different circumstances. I wasn't stable on suboxone when I had experienced them, I was inducing after weeks of heroin use, and I did it too early. Which is why I always wait 24, even when I only took heroin for one day.

Is it necessary to wait 24 hours after taking just a couple of moderate doses of IV heroin, even after taking suboxone for at least one week daily, prior to the one day 'vacation'?
--------

Any opinions are welcome, however I would ideally like to hear from you if you have experience with this.

Some people will say: Since suboxone lasts so long, your receptors still have some suboxone still attached, so it wouldn't be necessary to wait 24 hours, because that's the principle in cases where you are waiting for a full agonist to weaken or dissipate from your receptors. Since your receptors are still a bit saturated with suboxone given it's long half life, you should be fine to re-dose before 24. Another dose is merely joining what's already on your receptors. Even if there is a bit of heroin on your receptors still, the sub is stronger, and is on there as well. So you should be fine to take the sub earlier.

Others may say: If you aren't feeling like you are sick, why not just wait?

The soonest I ever took the chance of jumping back onto sub maintenance after a single day of heroin use was 22 hours, and I didn't get sick.

What are your thoughts? For right now...I did two shots yesterday. I bought only two bags, and I did 1.5 bags 24 hours ago, and half a bag at 11pm, which was 18 hours ago.

Should I wait or can I take my sub now? I'm not feeling too sick, but I don't feel doped up either. I just had sex with my girl a little while ago and I functioned in a way I wouldn't have been able to, had I been smacked. Hope it's not TMI, but you know what I mean.

 

[ATLL765]

Alright, so I consider myself fairly experienced, however I just wanted someone else's opinion that has first-hand experience with this.

I have been on suboxone maintenance, off and on for several years. When I am completely off, I am deep in IV heroin abuse. Most recently I have been on...since February (10 months). I am down to 4mg a day, I find it works better than 8mg. Anyway...every couple weeks, I tend to treat myself by seeing my dealer, and buying enough for a couple decent shots, to enjoy the day.

QUESTION:
When I do this, must I wait 24 hours to jump back on suboxone after my last shot? I do so anyway...out of fear of precipitated withdrawal, which I have experienced, however under different circumstances. I wasn't stable on suboxone when I had experienced them, I was inducing after weeks of heroin use, and I did it too early. Which is why I always wait 24, even when I only took heroin for one day.

Is it necessary to wait 24 hours after taking just a couple of moderate doses of IV heroin, even after taking suboxone for at least one week daily, prior to the one day 'vacation'?
--------

Any opinions are welcome, however I would ideally like to hear from you if you have experience with this.

Some people will say: Since suboxone lasts so long, your receptors still have some suboxone still attached, so it wouldn't be necessary to wait 24 hours, because that's the principle in cases where you are waiting for a full agonist to weaken or dissipate from your receptors. Since your receptors are still a bit saturated with suboxone given it's long half life, you should be fine to re-dose before 24. Another dose is merely joining what's already on your receptors. Even if there is a bit of heroin on your receptors still, the sub is stronger, and is on there as well. So you should be fine to take the sub earlier.

Others may say: If you aren't feeling like you are sick, why not just wait?

The soonest I ever took the chance of jumping back onto sub maintenance after a single day of heroin use was 22 hours, and I didn't get sick.

What are your thoughts? For right now...I did two shots yesterday. I bought only two bags, and I did 1.5 bags 24 hours ago, and half a bag at 11pm, which was 18 hours ago.

Should I wait or can I take my sub now? I'm not feeling too sick, but I don't feel doped up either. I just had sex with my girl a little while ago and I functioned in a way I wouldn't have been able to, had I been smacked. Hope it's not TMI, but you know what I mean.

Tried this recently after only waiting approximately 12 hours. I was fine. Previously I had never taken subs before waiting 18 hours. It should be alright for the reasons you speculated.

 

[vajeeh]

Thanks man. I figured a second opinion wouldn't hurt. If you've experienced Precipitated Withdrawal, then I'm sure you can understand why I would take the cautious route. It's the gates to Hell.

It has me second guessing myself. Everytime I take a day break, I go through this. I'm going to go ahead and take it now. Thanks again for responding...it's been an hour and nobody said anything.

 

[vajeeh]

Okay, so I took it about an hour ago and it was a success. I'm feeling warm and fuzzy.

 

[Erikmen]

Is it what you were expecting, in terms of harm reducing??

 

[vajeeh]

Is it what you were expecting, in terms of harm reducing??

Well I expected a few more opinions, but for the most part yes. Since I was afraid I would cause harm to myself by prematurely taking the suboxone and throwing myself into withdrawal, the comment the other poster made helped to reduce my fear of harm occurring, and lo and behold, I came through with no harm.

In case it wasn't obvious by my last post, where I thanked the person for their opinion, I hope this post makes it more apparent.

 

[BZboo]

I have taken them before 24 hours mark after IVing H and was fine. If anything I feel like you have to wait a lot longer for the sub to wears off before taking H than being worried about precipitated WD with sub.

 

[vajeeh]

I have taken them before 24 hours mark after IVing H and was fine. If anything I feel like you have to wait a lot longer for the sub to wears off before taking H than being worried about precipitated WD with sub.

well i'm fine simply waiting 24 hours after doing just 4mg of sub. I do a hefty shot and I get a good rush.
Tat's never a problem for me, the issue is jumping back on subs, because I've gone through PW's a few times, but those were times where I was getting on sub after long stretches of H without taking sub for a while.

 

[BZboo]

Lucky, I have to wait over 24 hours to feel a good rush, if I only wait 24 hours then I feel effects just not as strong. How long did your PWs last? I'm curious because I've always wondered if say you are going to WD from opiates and instead of waiting 24 hours and starting to feel shitty or going cold turkey and feeling shitty for 3 days you could just take the Sub early and feel really shitty for a few hours, but then not have any more withdrawal feelings afterwards? I'm not sure if these is true just wondering if it could be possible.

 

[Kid Amine]

If you've ever put yourself into bad PWD by taking suboxone too soon after an opiate, you would not be asking this question. *I* can get away with taking them (subs) <24hr after opiates, but I dont take subs week in and out, and in much lower doses than the avg sub mgmt patient. I once took them 12 hours after opiates, god damned that was one of THE dumbest things Ive ever done in my life. 24 hours is good *for me* if I take <4mg/day. 22 hours is okay, even 20. I wait until I am feeling as crappy as possible, because no matter how bad I feel, cramming the last part of your WD into 2 hours is NOT fun.

For those wondering about PWD, it's like this: you do a sub. You probably IVd it like a dumbass (guilty here as well). Instead of relief, you feel an icy rain go in your veins. AT this point you know you have fucked up badly, but it's too late (btw, sublingual administration results in the same, just takes 20 min instead of 20 seconds). The next hour or two of your life is unbelieveable hellish... if heroin WD was a ten, PWD is a 20. There is sweet fa you can do except ride it out, because ime subs wipe all the opiates off your receptors, then take their sweet time half-assed (agonist and antagonist) binding to those chemically gang raped receptors.

I hate being ill, but self-induced PWD is like a datura trip; you will never fkn repeat that mistake again. (btw, pwd is cake compared to a datura trip).

It depends on the daily dosage and your individual metabolism. If you take 24mg/day for weeks, 24 hours is nowhere near enough time to clear it to feel H (a single 8 wipes my "fun" calender for a full 36 hours). Id give it 24 hours after doing H to do subs again, just as a safeguard against PWD.

 

[Monkeygrrrl]

Buprenorphine and heroin

AH mate...
Friends of mine used to mail me Subutex tablets to help me leave the country (say to go up to Bali for 2 weeks) without having to "hang out"
Originally they advised I wait either 24hrs or "until yr really hanging" before taking it.
This I would do, so usually the first day of my vacation was awful, but then I would take 2mg, 4mg, 6mg, 4mg, 2mg over 5 days (at roughly same time every day) and like magic on day 6 - TOTALLY BACK TO NORMAL. No signs of withdrawal WHATSOEVER :D
:D
I was so impressed, and used this method for years whenever I had to go for a stint without using.
What I DID LEARN, however, is that there is NO NEED TO WAIT SO LONG BEFORE TAKING IT!
I discovered I could get away without precipitated withdrawal by waiting over 6 hours from my last shot - without incident...
The ONLY time I have ever experienced Precipitated Withdrawal was intentionally (I was high and crashed car, took Suboxone in ambulance so blood tests would show Narcan in bloodstream alongside the opiates). This caused me headaches and vomiting but it wasn't UNBEARABLE. Mind you I won't advise this as I've heard most people report that Precip WD was their worst nightmare 8(

SO,
My answer to yr question is: You should be able to take a SMALL dose (say 2 mg) of sub 6-12 hours after yr last heroin shot. This is because heroin doesn't last long in the system, and it's half-life is MUCH shorter than Buprenorphines is. However, if you are really concerned, then yeah, waiting until you start to get the goosebumps, yawns and eye watering effect of opiate WD before you take any.
Stay safe
MG
p.s. it IS worth being aware, that of the 2 types of Buprenorphine y'll get hold of in Australia, it's the SUBOXONE (which is Bup as well as a small amount of Naloxone to stop ppl trying to inject it) you want to watch out for in particular. Having a shot of H and then taking a SUBOXONE strip shortly after will cause you to go into withdrawals (as the opiate agonist/antagonist goes to work kicking all the opiates off yr receptors and blocking them up with the synthetic opiate). Taking it the other way round (SUBOXONE then heroin shortly after) won't make you sick but IT WILL PISS YOU OFF... why? because you won't get high. At all.
In fact, due to it's lonnnng half life, it takes DAYS to be able to feel the effect of opiates again once you have Bup in your system.
Apologies if this turned into a bit of a rant
good luck
x

 

[BZboo]

@Kid Anime...how long did the PWD last? Because I have never experienced them but my original question was about how long they last and if it was shorter than say going cold turkey WD from opiates?

 

[ATLL765]

Thanks man. I figured a second opinion wouldn't hurt. If you've experienced Precipitated Withdrawal, then I'm sure you can understand why I would take the cautious route. It's the gates to Hell.

It has me second guessing myself. Everytime I take a day break, I go through this. I'm going to go ahead and take it now. Thanks again for responding...it's been an hour and nobody said anything.

If you've ever put yourself into bad PWD by taking suboxone too soon after an opiate, you would not be asking this question. *I* can get away with taking them (subs) <24hr after opiates, but I dont take subs week in and out, and in much lower doses than the avg sub mgmt patient. I once took them 12 hours after opiates, god damned that was one of THE dumbest things Ive ever done in my life. 24 hours is good *for me* if I take <4mg/day. 22 hours is okay, even 20. I wait until I am feeling as crappy as possible, because no matter how bad I feel, cramming the last part of your WD into 2 hours is NOT fun.

For those wondering about PWD, it's like this: you do a sub. You probably IVd it like a dumbass (guilty here as well). Instead of relief, you feel an icy rain go in your veins. AT this point you know you have fucked up badly, but it's too late (btw, sublingual administration results in the same, just takes 20 min instead of 20 seconds). The next hour or two of your life is unbelieveable hellish... if heroin WD was a ten, PWD is a 20. There is sweet fa you can do except ride it out, because ime subs wipe all the opiates off your receptors, then take their sweet time half-assed (agonist and antagonist) binding to those chemically gang raped receptors.

I hate being ill, but self-induced PWD is like a datura trip; you will never fkn repeat that mistake again. (btw, pwd is cake compared to a datura trip).

It depends on the daily dosage and your individual metabolism. If you take 24mg/day for weeks, 24 hours is nowhere near enough time to clear it to feel H (a single 8 wipes my "fun" calender for a full 36 hours). Id give it 24 hours after doing H to do subs again, just as a safeguard against PWD.

I've experienced precipitated withdrawal a few times because I'm an idiot. I won't shoot subs anymore because of this because I feel it's more likely to induce them than taking sublingually. It's like going from not really sick to 110% full fucking withdrawal want to kill yourself sick. Only thing I can compare it to is "cotton fever", another self induced form of torture, lol.

It certainly seems that if you're on subs daily, but go off them for a day or so to use heroin, you should be ok taking subs a bit earlier than normal. That being said, I'd still wait at least 12 hours when you're at least starting to feel sick.

 

[black kat]

Honestly,ive taken it as little as 6-7 hours after my last heroin use and nothing happened,thing is that i had a pretty big habit and after sleeping,i would almost always wake up in (at least) mild WDs.So it happened like: used H around 6am,went to sleep,took 4mgs of bupe around 1pm and everything was fine.

Maybe i felt a slight "sudden awakening" feeling at the time the bupe kicked in,but thats it.

For everybody else though id recommend having at least 10-12 hours clean,just to be sure,especially if they are inexperienced about the whole "bupe to H-then again back to bupe" kind of thing.

 

[Erikmen]

Well I expected a few more opinions, but for the most part yes. Since I was afraid I would cause harm to myself by prematurely taking the suboxone and throwing myself into withdrawal, the comment the other poster made helped to reduce my fear of harm occurring, and lo and behold, I came through with no harm.

In case it wasn't obvious by my last post, where I thanked the person for their opinion, I hope this post makes it more apparent.

It really does not!

 

[Erikmen]

8 hours after imo..

 

[vajeeh]

It really does not!

Well that doesn't surprise me..I'm bound to run into people like yourself that are too high to comprehend simple information and statements. Don't beat yourself up over it. Just come down a bit and you will understand.

 

[vajeeh]

AH mate...
Friends of mine used to mail me Subutex tablets to help me leave the country (say to go up to Bali for 2 weeks) without having to "hang out"
Originally they advised I wait either 24hrs or "until yr really hanging" before taking it.
This I would do, so usually the first day of my vacation was awful, but then I would take 2mg, 4mg, 6mg, 4mg, 2mg over 5 days (at roughly same time every day) and like magic on day 6 - TOTALLY BACK TO NORMAL. No signs of withdrawal WHATSOEVER :D
:D
I was so impressed, and used this method for years whenever I had to go for a stint without using.
What I DID LEARN, however, is that there is NO NEED TO WAIT SO LONG BEFORE TAKING IT!
I discovered I could get away without precipitated withdrawal by waiting over 6 hours from my last shot - without incident...
The ONLY time I have ever experienced Precipitated Withdrawal was intentionally (I was high and crashed car, took Suboxone in ambulance so blood tests would show Narcan in bloodstream alongside the opiates). This caused me headaches and vomiting but it wasn't UNBEARABLE. Mind you I won't advise this as I've heard most people report that Precip WD was their worst nightmare 8(

SO,
My answer to yr question is: You should be able to take a SMALL dose (say 2 mg) of sub 6-12 hours after yr last heroin shot. This is because heroin doesn't last long in the system, and it's half-life is MUCH shorter than Buprenorphines is. However, if you are really concerned, then yeah, waiting until you start to get the goosebumps, yawns and eye watering effect of opiate WD before you take any.
Stay safe
MG
p.s. it IS worth being aware, that of the 2 types of Buprenorphine y'll get hold of in Australia, it's the SUBOXONE (which is Bup as well as a small amount of Naloxone to stop ppl trying to inject it) you want to watch out for in particular. Having a shot of H and then taking a SUBOXONE strip shortly after will cause you to go into withdrawals (as the opiate agonist/antagonist goes to work kicking all the opiates off yr receptors and blocking them up with the synthetic opiate). Taking it the other way round (SUBOXONE then heroin shortly after) won't make you sick but IT WILL PISS YOU OFF... why? because you won't get high. At all.
In fact, due to it's lonnnng half life, it takes DAYS to be able to feel the effect of opiates again once you have Bup in your system.
Apologies if this turned into a bit of a rant
good luck
x

Not necessarily as far as not feeling any effect for days after you have bup in your system. I take sub daily, 4mg...and when i want to take a day or two break and do IV heroin, I can wait 20-24 hours before doing a shot and I feel it just fine. I get a perfectly satisfying rush from it. It's a misconception. It also depends on how strong the dose of sub is, and how strong the dose of opiate is. But I've been experienced with suboxone for 7 years, and I'm fully aware of it as far as the blocking ability.

After a longer bout with heroin, like 3 days, I wait a full 24 hours before going back onto sub. However I just wanted opinions concerning whether people jump back onto sub before 24 hours or before feeling very sick, if they only jumped off on a full opiate like heroin for just one day, after several days of being on sub before that. The shortest amount of time was 19 hours. As I mentioned in my original post concerning what I thought some people would say regarding why you can take it earlier, it seems as though I was right.

 

[Kid Amine]

@Kid Anime...how long did the PWD last? Because I have never experienced them but my original question was about how long they last and if it was shorter than say going cold turkey WD from opiates?

1-2 hours. After that the subutex (-oxone) seats in where those opiates were so rudely thrown out, then you're okay, until the sub wears off. Then you go thru normal WD, unless you start tapering with subs or take more opiates (vicious circle).

 

[scumpunch]

I think this is one of those things that varies from person to person. I've ended up in precipitated withdrawals when I'm convinced I'm already in withdrawal (though also having bad anxiety, I sometimes will think withdrawals are coming on earlier than they actually are because of the anxiety coming on that usually goes along with it). 24 hours seems like a good amount of time to wait, though it's likely that if you've only used the one time you'll be fine taking it sooner. Still, I understand your fear and would likely wait as long as possible personally, if I were to take suboxone (I've never liked it and was switched to methadone, but I know it works well for a lot of people). The problem I would expect you to have more so than precipitated withdrawals doing that is not being able to feel your dope because of the dupe/naloxone. I think were you on a higher dose than the 4mg you'd have a bigger struggle with that... Not sure this post was much help, but I hope you never have to experience precipitated withdrawals (or any sort of withdrawals for that matter, but when you can't do anything about it it's the absolute WORST.)