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☛ Official ☚ Adding Tryptamines into Mushroom Substrate

To increase potency, I remember reading over at shroomery a post that had listed the ability of the mycelium to convert various alkaloids into 4-ho-DMT, and the most promising chemical additive was n-methyltryptamine, not tryptamine and especially not DMT.

n-methyltryptamine is neither hard to make nor illegal to buy as I do not believe it is scheduled or controlled.
 
I wonder what would happen if one would use mimosa hostilis rootbark as a substrate for psilocybe azureszens (since they grow on wood, this would probably be perfect). =D
 
probably increases potency exactly as much as singing to them does-- placebo's a wonderful thing.

think about it, ps. azurescens produces high concentrations of psilocin from naturally occurring substrates (wood) that do not contain any tryptamine, nmt, or dmt.

as was mentioned before, you need to genetically modify ("natural" selection and crossing, or GMO bioengineering) the organism if you want to increase specific traits. think of cannabis; you have to breed strains if you want increased yield. no dank buds from mexican dirt genetics.

but it's pretty damn hard to breed mushrooms (you have to cross two monokaryons, which requires a microscope and luck, and sometimes you'll get a non-fruiting cross)
 
This thread made me think of a slightly off-topic question.
What about mescaline-containing cacti? Is it known whether something similar could be done to their growing conditions to produce analogs of mescaline not normally seen in them?
 
dread said:
I believe all attempts to increase potency using tryptophan have failed so far, so 5-htp would be unlikely to be succesful. Then again, it might work, who knows.

Melatonin would very likely be hydrolyzed or metabolized into mexamine (5-meo-T) and thus would produce 4-ho-5-meo-DMT.
Click to expand...

I wonder if 5-HO-T (serotonin) in the substrate would make 4,5-dihydroxy-DMT. Hmmm...
 
Why would you want 4,5-dihydroxy-DMT?

Good drugs penetrate the blood brain barrier, otherwise they're not very interesting. The blood brain barrier is non-polar, so polar functional groups reduce BBB penetration and hence reduce activity. 4,5-dihydroxy-DMT would thus be expected to be less interesting than 4-HO-DMT.

The hydroxy on 4-HO-DMT is mainly interesting because it prevents MAO's from shredding the drug before it gets to your brain (hence why oral DMT is only active in combination with MAOIs, and why DMT administered through other means is so short, your enzymes readily attack it).
 
sleepysaint said:
This thread made me think of a slightly off-topic question.
What about mescaline-containing cacti? Is it known whether something similar could be done to their growing conditions to produce analogs of mescaline not normally seen in them?
Click to expand...

This is an interesting question. I don't know if the metabolic processes that produce mescaline in cacti are all that well understood at the moment. I was reading through PiHKAL the other night and recall a section speculating that some methylene or ethylene dioxy phenethylamines would likely be intermediates present somewhere in the cactus, though probably not in large amounts, for what its worth... This probably deserves its own thread

And back to topic, Jochen Gartz got psilocybe sp mushrooms to produce hydroxylated DET, DPT, & maybe DiPT, can't remember precisely right off. I've got pdf's of the study, but they're on my other computer. I'm sure they wouldn't be terribly difficult to find using google.
 
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any major dude said:
This is an interesting question. I don't know if the metabolic processes that produce mescaline in cacti are all that well understood at the moment. I was reading through PiHKAL the other night and recall a section speculating that some methylene or ethylene dioxy phenethylamines would likely be intermediates present somewhere in the cactus, though probably not in large amounts, for what its worth... This probably deserves its own thread

And back to topic, Jochen Gartz got psilocybe sp mushrooms to produce hydroxylated DET, DPT, & maybe DiPT, can't remember precisely right off. I've got pdf's of the study, but they're on my other computer. I'm sure they wouldn't be terribly difficult to find using google.
Click to expand...

I found the paper you're talking bout, but I can't find access to it...
I'd be interested in reading it though

edit:nevermind i found a copy
 
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This theory seems like it would be relatively easy to examine experimentally; has anybody tested it? :)
 
It certainly has. Simple tryptamines are sometimes injected into the mushroom substrate to produce stronger mushrooms or mushrooms with different alkaloid compositions.

You can see if there's anything in out Mushroom Cultivation thread

But your best bet is checking out the forums over at http://www.shroomery.org/ They're much more in depth with this kind of stuff than we are.
 
would not be worth it.

a large percentage of the DIPT would remain in the mycelium without traveling to the fruitbodies, and probably there will be a certain quantity of it that gets catabolized (broken down for nutrition purposes)
 
- As far as I know there haven't been repeat experiments with reported analysis results. The question is also how much 4-HO-X there is made in the mushrooms. Very little, in trace quantities would be considered a curiosity but nothing applicable. A lot and you couldn't gauge it per fruitbody giving you a seriously hard unexpected trip and a mix with the normal psilo alkaloids at that. Extraction and purification would be tedious but interesting if one were a fanatic. I'd say it is of scientific value to find out the best conditions as well as the limits of applying the fungus' enzyme mechanisms.

- There have been threads on 4-HO-5-MeO-X but there was an outspoken doubt about enzymes being able to fit that due to steric hindrance as well as in human neuro receptors. It's probably not gonna work. I'll try to merge the thread(s) because this is definitely not the first. Starting to deserve a place in the relevant Mushroom threads listed in the B&D.

- I think if you're gonna do this put the tryptamine in the substrate. Not with the spores because you only inoculate locally meaning you also inject the tryptamine locally. And the fruitbodies could use it best uniformly / homogeneously. In the mycelium *could* work but I wouldn't have the best hope that it's transported all over though you avoid premature catabolysis in the pre-pinning - colonization - stage. Maybe it's the best option after all.

- I believe simple tryptamine supplementation boosts the potency somewhat, DMT could work but it's not even all that sure it would be preferable over tryptamine, maybe it is since the 4-hydroxylation seems to happen later than the N-terminus methylation. Tryptophan is a long shot, probably not so much. If it would be possible you would expect to get maybe bufotenin from 5-HTP since it would stop before the 4-hydroxylation because of steric hindrance but this is reaaally wishful thinking. Nice fantasy though!

- If the whole DiPT conversion works you would expect to get iprocin and iprocybin probably in same ratios as the mushroom makes psilocin : psilocybin. I say that because I believe those ratios are caused by different enzyme concentrations in different strains.
...Except if 4-phosphorylation is hindred by N-substitution. Then there's more iprocin. You would still expect psilocin and psilocybin to be in the fruitbodies as long as there are suitable precursors for tryptamines in the substrate. If you could remove those selectively then theoretically you would force the fungus to make only 4-XO-DiPTryptamines.
 
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Gotta love a thread bout impregnating mushrooms :) <3
 
Yeah I thought "A thread about fucking mushrooms & getting them pregnant?" =D

As for the adding substrate, wouldn't tryptamine phosphate (phospate salt of tryptamine) be the ideal thing to add?

While adding say DiPT to get a very different drug (iprocin/4-OH DiPT) might be worthwhile, it seems to be a silly extravegance to feed very rare DET to them to get 4-OH DET. The enzyme sounds very non substrate specific. Might even be worth extracting the enzyme & carrying out the final 4-hydroxylation in vitro if you want to isolate the final product
 
Jochen Gartz published methods he tested & found effective for getting mushrooms to produce novel tryptamines. Can't recall the link right off, but anyone with google should be able to find it easily
 
phucifer said:
i dont really understand this.

you're saying that you put something like DiPT into the mycelium when they fruited, the mushrooms would have 4-HO-DiPT in them as well as psilocybin?
Click to expand...

In theory, assuming the enzyme used to produce 4-HO-DiPT had to be occupied with it instead of producing psilocybin as well.... If they are processed at the same time you would get both....

But yea, the idea is it can make things 4-HO-xxxx if you add tryptamines to the substrate....

Your eating something that does not normally occur in nature.... But i think i would find some people who would eat them if you were like "special mushrooms fortified with random psychedelic tryptamines!" I myself would probably eat them, most of the tryptamines to my knowledge are decently benign at low doses and i would dose low just in case it turned out unexpectedly potent.....
 
As to the cactii question, the only info I've found is that adding (injecting intoi the cactus) L-DOPA increases the yield of mescaline & other PEA alkaloids (can't remember which species of cactus, but if it's peyote you'd expect an increase in the amount of isoquinolines as well), but to get variants on mescaline, you'd need to know the full biosynthesis of mescaline so that you'd add the correct substrate - you'd also have to hope that the enzymes involved weren't fussy about their substrate, like tryptamine 4-hydroxylase seems to be.

If the enzymes were nonspecific regarding substrate, the possibilities are endless (a big one being that a blood pressure medication, alphamethylDOPA, could be used to get a cactus to produce TMA-1)
 
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