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Active research/development HRT.

You want to know what leads to the sexual differentiation of males and females? Something about supplementation? I really can't pin down what you want to know based on this post.
 
endotropic said:
You want to know what leads to the sexual differentiation of males and females? Something about supplementation? I really can't pin down what you want to know based on this post.
Click to expand...

Very much.

It seems unreal to me that only two hormones are the basis of the cause of physical traits. Just like lack of Serotonin isn't the cause of depression (one of many)

I'm wondering whether there are other substances in development working on the same pharmacological path but perhaps more efficient.

&whether there are other hormones/receptors that also play a role in gender development.

On supplementation... i've looked into phytoandrogens but literature says they are inefficient.

Sorry for not including any actual science, I have much reading to do before I lay my hand on that.
 
There are not just 2 hormones..
They are 3 main steroid families. Androgens, estrogens and progestagens.

And there are more. There is an array of different peptides (releasing factors, inhibitors, regulators) that control the whole thing in an harmonious biological interplay with the former.
 
There are more than just 3 steroid horomone families, androgens/estrogens/progestogens are just the sex-related ones, there are also mineralocorticoids and glucocorticoids & other regulatory modulators
 
Take a look at this wiki page on Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. Some (genetically XY) males born with this syndrome have totally non-functional androgen receptors from the time of conception, and consequently look entirely female. Some of them will never realize unless they have genetic testing done.
 
Wow. Thank you very much!! Endocrinology sure is a wide and diverse subject...
 
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Reduced serum BDNF -> How adverse is this ?
As in

Are there telltales physically/mentally or adverse health effects when this occurs?
 
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Well in utero there's quite a bit. The SRY gene is probably the single most important factor for initial development of male genitals (signals testies to develop), then there is anti-mullarian hormone which prevents the formation of the uterus and fallopian tubes which is secreted by the embryonic testies. Those "women" with androgen insensitivity syndrome likely found out early in puberty when they never began periods as the upper portion of the female genitals never developed.

If you suffer from gender dysphoria sex reassignment surgery is not an option I would recommend. The suicide rate for the population that goes through with it is 19.1 times the general population even when adjusting for other mental illness. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21364939

Now some studies show high satisfaction with procedures, but very low response rates so take them with a grain of salt.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testis_determining_factor
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Müllerian_hormone
 
Epsilon Alpha said:
Well in utero there's quite a bit. The SRY gene is probably the single most important factor for initial development of male genitals (signals testies to develop), then there is anti-mullarian hormone which prevents the formation of the uterus and fallopian tubes which is secreted by the embryonic testies. Those "women" with androgen insensitivity syndrome likely found out early in puberty when they never began periods as the upper portion of the female genitals never developed.

If you suffer from gender dysphoria sex reassignment surgery is not an option I would recommend. The suicide rate for the population that goes through with it is 19.1 times the general population even when adjusting for other mental illness. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21364939

Now some studies show high satisfaction with procedures, but very low response rates so take them with a grain of salt.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testis_determining_factor
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Müllerian_hormone
Click to expand...

Alive and kicking. I wouldn't recommend it either, it's not a solution but it could help. I think the increased suicide rate is because of societal & professional pressures rather then lack of succes even with such invasive surgeries.
Also requiring to live as members of their target sex for at least one year prior to genital surgery only increases the risk of discrimination & violation. The whole slew of legal issues is a driving factor too.

that White Matter Microstructure correlates more to either gender
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/34/46/15466.full.pdf+html
Is also why SRS seems to helps.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0111672#pone-0111672-g003
GD flaring up when voices mixmatch.

http://journals.aace.com/doi/abs/10.4158/EP14351.RA
Evidence Supporting the Biologic Nature of Gender Identity

But yes, I can understand why it would be difficult to translate physical differences to behavioral differences such as dysphoria.
Thank you for teaching me about this :p.
 
rakketakke said:
that White Matter Microstructure correlates more to either gender
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/34/46/15466.full.pdf+html
Is also why SRS seems to helps.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0111672#pone-0111672-g003
GD flaring up when voices mixmatch.

http://journals.aace.com/doi/abs/10.4158/EP14351.RA
Evidence Supporting the Biologic Nature of Gender Identity

But yes, I can understand why it would be difficult to translate physical differences to behavioral differences such as dysphoria.
Thank you for teaching me about this :p.
Click to expand...

I don't deny that there is a biological role in gender dysphoria (same with a whole host of other conditions that seem linked). But from your first link I can't see why sex reassignment surgery would help. It shows that transsexuals have neurological differences but there is nothing in my reading showing that SRS actually addresses these underlying correlates.

My personal theory is that gender dysphoria is a "multi hit" condition similar to schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. There's some evidence for differences in androgen receptor activity in the transsexual population as well as the insanely high rate of mental illness in this population. I'll use autism as an example as its been thoroughly shown to be independent of most life experience. So my thoughts are that its a combination of biological predispositions all going wrong at the same time (from a purely Darwinian perspective). Not saying they can't lead full and fulfilling lives, but it seems more and more like a sexual manifestation of mental illness to me. I understand that its not a popular opinion, and I'm willing to hear scholarly counterpoints. Sorry if this is coming off hostile, its just hard to segway into this

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4345542/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2904453/
 
No, it's fine. I really need an objective perspective. You seem much more well-versed in this anyhow. Every human brain differs from eachother so I think it's a valid reason you say it wouldn't help. These parts are still very understudied in behavioral genetics.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ravishly/neuroscience-proves-what-_b_6494820.html
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2010to2014/2012-intersex-and-transsex.html
i'm not trying to cherrypick or anything, I just want to explore all avenues. I'm not quite good at being concise so i'm focusing on the biology, somewhat, first.
Also possible adverse health effects involving HRT.
& the unknown causation in seemingly healthy subjects.

I think SRS can help because these findings support the notion that structural differences exist between subjects with GD and controls from the same biological gender. They found that transsexual subjects did not differ significantly from controls sharing their gender identity but were different from those sharing their biological gender in their regional GM volume of several brain areas, including the left and right precentral gyri, the left postcentral gyrus (including the somatosensory cortex and the primary motor cortex), the left posterior cingulate, precueneus and calcarinus, the right cuneus, the right fusiform, lingual, middle and inferior occipital, and inferior temporal gyri. Additionaly, they also found areas in the cerebellum and in the left angular gyrus and left inferior parietal lobule that showed significant structural difference between transgender subjects and controls, independent from their biological gender.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full
Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html
A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality

http://www.medicaldaily.com/brain-mapping-gender-identity-what-makes-boy-girl-247122
Brain mapping gender identity.
Luders E, Sánchez F, Tosun D, et al. Increased Cortical Thickness in Male-to-Female Transsexualism. Journal of Behavioral and Brain Science. 2012.

In sum, gender identity, whether consistent or inconsistent with other sex characteristics, may be understood to be “much less a matter of choice and much more a matter of biology” (Coolidge et al., 2000).
The scientific evidence supports the paradigm that transsexualism is strongly associated with the neurodevelopment of the brain (Zhou et al., 1995; Kruijver et al., 2000).
It is clear that the condition cannot necessarily be overcome by “consistent psychological socialisation as male or female (tried and tested, behavioral therapy does not help)

from very early childhood” ... It is understood that during the fetal period the brain is potentially subject to the organising properties of sex hormones (Kruijver et al., 2000; 2001; 2002; 2003).
In the case of transsexualism, these effects appear to be atypical, resulting in sex-reversal in the structure of the BSTc, and possibly other, as yet unidentified, loci (Kruijver, 2004).
The etiological pathways leading to this inconsistent development almost certainly vary from individual to individual, so no single route is likely to be identified.
Different genetic, hormonal and environmental factors, acting separately or in combination with each other, are likely to be involved in influencing the development of the psychological identification as male or female.
Psychosocial factors and cultural mores are likely to impact on outcomes (Connolly, 2003)

intersex conditions, maternal stress levels, deficient enzymes and whether the mother was exposed during the pregnancy to endocrine disrupting chemicals are also things to take account for.
http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

For theory:
I think these neurological differences are responsible for various behaviour we think of binary as either male/female but i'm not entirely certain this biological determinism (based purely on genitals, chromosomes) is neccesarily complete. our brain works so that every organism will want to fulfill it's biological design, the internal image your brain has of yourself... If the design is swayed (androgen insensitivity as you stated, par example) so follow psychological, physical & sexual 'manifestations.' of either male/female behaviour. Nature doesn't work in perfect design and on average churns out 3 anomalies in every humanbeing (an old doctors saying ; ). In a way we should be grateful for such a feature but lack of acceptance/ignorance that everyone differs (and lacking research) is very prevalent.

Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine
Lenses of Gender by Sandra Lipsitz Bem

Stephanie Tolan. (psychologist studying intelligence)
It is often said that the highly gifted are more androgynous than other children. They tend to reject strict gender identities, perhaps because they don’t wish to be limited either in their explorations of the world or in their interactions with others. During adolescence this can set up a confusion about gender identity that can be difficult for the individual to sort out. Because high intelligence is considered by society to be a “masculine” trait, highly gifted girls may feel less “girl-like” than other girls. Empathy and sensitivity are considered “feminine,” so sensitive highly gifted boys may feel less “boy-like.” The way they handle this confusion and how they act upon it depends on individual realities. They may become exaggeratedly feminine or intensely macho, trying to establish themselves firmly in their biological gender, or they may go to the other extreme and take on external traits of the opposite gender. They may try to lose their confusion in sexual experimentation or hide from it by rejecting sexuality altogether.

Dabrowski's theories. (a psychiatrist who does away all the negative connotations of modern-day "mental illness", overexcitabilities is an interesting concept.)
there are many individual exceptions to any empirical generalization, but exceptions do not invalidate generalizations either.

This excerpt by Sandra Bern:
One aspect of the identity of the gifted is associated with androgyny: She sees femininity and masculinity not as opposite poles on a continuum but rather as parallel-running sets of traits. According to her you're neither completely feminine or masculine, you have a little of both or a lot of both. The androgynous person will exhibit high levels of so-called male characteristics (independence, autonomy, dominance) and at the same time feminine traits (warmth, awareness of others' feelings, expression).

Very interesting you say that, psychologists in Netherlands (Dutch) tend to see that correlation, it's possibly the first, foremost diagnosis they make. neurotic behaviour comes and goes in all humans, severity is a different thing. I do agree that when attitudes, values and social behavior deemed fe/male are to be supressed that mental illness follows, i'm not discerning the validity of autism and the possible link though.
I know there is one study that cites 30 percent so going of that, it'd be my first diagnosis too.
Still an Autistic brain is after all according to some of the common distinctions between male and female brains a "hypermale" brain - not exactly prime material for a MtF TS.
Significantly lower levels of a key estrogen receptor may play a role in autism spectrum disorders
So could that be seen as a reverse causality in people with forms of autism?
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00787-005-0469-4
http://health.usnews.com/health-news/articles/2014/09/11/estrogen-receptor-may-play-a-role-in-autism

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2904453/
"Feminine interests of many gender dysphoric young boys with ASD concerned soft tissues, glitter, and long hair and could be understood as a preference for specific sensory input typical for ASD."
So autistic people seem to be focused on things of vanity and the actual feel/look of these things rather then identifying to an inherent gender.

In most gender dysphoric children, gender dysphoria will cease when they reach puberty, whereas adolescents with a GID will likely pursue their wish for sex reassignment into adulthood (Cohen-Kettenis and Pfäfflin 2003; Wallien and Cohen-Kettenis 2008; Zucker and Bradley 1995). Likewise, in children under age 12 with co-occurring ASD the gender dysphoria alleviated and in adolescents between age 12 and 18 their GID persisted.
It also seems that autistic people don't pursue this when they reach adulthood.

I know i'm quoting a lot of behavioral science here but this subject transgresses a few fields: neurologic, psychologic, sociologic, hormonal makeup, heredity*, intelligence, sexuality, identity, behavioral science/genetics, up to chemistry ...
*not consistently proven.
I'm sorry, this probably isn't your field and must be pretty boring to you. I do think your model based purely on psychological/sexual causes is incomplete.

http://www.healthcanal.com/mental-h...r-to-look-at-what-shapes-gender-identity.html
Lets hope this grant will bring more light.

What you describe is called Autogynephilia. I have read Anne Lawrence's book "Men trapped in Men's Bodies". I think your basis for sexual perversion comes from Ray Blanchard? Much of the research for this was conducted in gay bars and drag queen bars, so uh... yeah...
His findings also:
1. have never been replicated
2. failed to include control groups of typically-gendered women
3. failed to covary the acknowledged age-difference from ANOVA
4. drew conclusions about causality from entirely observational data

Are you only going of Blanchards work?

I can see it as a symptom of GD combined with puberty. I think it goes a little further then wanting to have sex with yourself as a woman but in our highly oversexualized world, try explaining that you had a concept of a woman as yourself pre-puberty and then testosterone happens, for me it's rather clear.
http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/autogynephilia.html
I've been medicated with substances that counter every part of the dopamine receptor.
They diminished my interest in my enviroment.
Yet the thoughts/feeling/behaviour remained.
Also perpetuating that being a woman is a source of shame puzzles me...
What exactly is there to be embarassed about?

I do think that transvestic fetishism is a thing, fetishes can be anything.

don't let my personal bias be too confronting. I find there's nothing wrong with people wanting to change their gender for social or personal reasons but often times people with other psychological issues; multiple personality disorder, body dysmorphic disorder, just to name a few, mistakenly think they're transgender.
So I understand that you think this is a perversion/mental illness. & HRT/SRS will do absolutely nothing for these people, on the contrary really.
In any case, I do see there's no point in referencing biological markers insofar as proving and therefore validating transgenderism somehow.
But only discerning psychological causes has been overruled.

Also on regret
Pfafflin F., Junge A. (1992) Sex Reassignment: 30 Years of International Follow-up Studies after SRS: A Comprehensive Review, 1961-1991
This study looked at 70 previous studies and reviews on outcomes following sex reassignment surgery. These included 2000 individuals from 1961 to 1991. This doesn’t take into account individuals who transition without surgery. About 70% of MTF individuals were satisfied and 90% of FTM individuals.

Krege S., Bex A., Lummen G., et al. (2001). Male-to-female transsexualism: a technique, results and long-term follow-up in 66 patients. BJU International. 88:396-402.
This study shows little or no regrets possibly due to surgical advances.

Also for that suicide study.
First they note that general population rates for suicidality are around 1.6% in the United States. Then they note that suicidality rates for post-op transsexual people are about 4.1%. They then claim that since this is “hundreds of percent higher” that surgery does not work.
Whilst your concern is valid don't you think most have thought about the consequences: sign me up for ridicule, rejection, unemployment, having to constantly watch my back, not to mention medical bills, electrolysis, therapy, surgeries, legal bills and endless name change hassles.

Yes,the lifetime rate for suicide attempts was higher for people who had had hormone treatment than those who had not but wanted it.
Yes,the lifetime rate for suicide attempts was also higher for people who had had counseling than for those who wanted it but had not had it.

AKA the seeds of these suicide attempts are lack of social acceptance, it's very rare to see post-op regret related to their body. This was also done to people who received support roughly 20-25 years ago when support was even less likely then today.
also Transition-related healthcare is notorious for long-waiting lists, unnecessarily strict requirements and a lack of local services.

https://www.skane.se/Upload/Webbplatser/USIL/Dokument/Sjukhusbibliotek/Johansson, Annika.pdf
another Swedish study in 2009 found that 95 percent of individuals who transitioned report positive life outcomes as a result.

I certainly agree that Trans has a high suspectibility of depression
http://transpulseproject.ca/wp-cont...g-Parental-Support-for-Trans-Youth-vFINAL.pdf
75% of trans individuals with unsupportive or somewhat supportive familes exhibited symptoms of depression, compared to only 23% of those with highly supportive families. And 57% of those without family support attempted suicide, compared to only 4% of those with support.
 
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Have you talked to anyone in your personal life about transitioning? Maybe its best to continue this by PM if it gets a bit more personal. I'm not against HRT in the transexual population, but SRS in the clinical samples I've seen first hand leave a lot to be desired (particularly if you're circumcised assuming MtF, and I'd hazard a guess FtM as well).

For whatever reason the population that experiences gender dysphoria seems to have a massively increased rate of mental illness, now my opinion is that in a large but perhaps not majority portion of this population that gender dysphoria is secondary. But, if you have a primary case you would perhaps be best seeking a consult with a specialist to confirm that there are no confounding factors that could be treated before you undergo any treatment. Keep in mind that there are risks with HRT (blood clots, various cancers, etc) however its up to you and your treating physicians to decide what is right for you.

It might help to know your gender and which gender(s) you're attracted to as well.

Best,

EA
 
Is circumcision the same as orchiectomy?
Click to expand...

Far from it! Otherwise early Christians would have died out within a single generation ;)

Also those "symptoms" you listed could also be signs of hundreds of other issues, and some are not indicative of problems at all, feeling tired after a large meal is actually perfectly normal, as is having emotoinal responses to movies/TV... don't be so quick to diagnose hormone changes (which can be quantitatively measured in blood) by guesswork.
 
rakketakke said:
forced into castration
Click to expand...

Are you from Iran? Serious question, as I'm trying to piece together the transsexual healthcare services part of things.

Almost sounds like you might have some sort of adrenal condition as the adrenals process many of the body's steroids, do you have vertical stretch marks on your torso (sign of high cortisol)? Without sounding alarmist, it does ring a few bells for a adrenal tumor which I really don't want to be missed if it is the case. Here's some reading that might be useful to you http://www.cancer.org/cancer/adrena...dguide/adrenal-cortical-cancer-signs-symptoms

I'd definitely like to see some lab results if you can get them. I'm not saying that you might not just have primary gender dysphoria, but some of the symptoms you have mentioned do strike me as endocrine red flags, especially if you do suffer from the list you gave lest gynecomastia.

edit: here's the wikipedia link to adrenal structure and function, if anything needs clarification please don't hesitate to ask, but some of your issues could be explained by a under functioning 17beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase causing reduced androgen production and decreased clearance of the precursors for the other steroids in the pathway up to that point

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrenal_gland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrenal_gland#/media/File:Adrenal_Steroids_Pathways.svg
 
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