Detox About to do a Kratom Detox

[Jabberwocky]

Damn, that sounds really shitty my friend! I would try and focus on the fact that as it gets out of your system you'll be feeling better and better. Supplements can be dangerous sometimes, as they're drugs in and of themselves of course and we're all effected differently by different things.

If you have any access to valerian root I'd suggest taking some of that, or some kava kava (or both). Might help relax you a bit. Likewise, taking some magnesium may help calm you down a bit. Definitely avoid caffeine and other stimulants until you're feeling better.

Honestly, I bet a nice hot bath or something relaxing like a sauna would be ideal for this kind of situation DTLC, if you're able to I mean. Hope you feel better ASAP!

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

Pushing the analogy even further, the question remains, "What to do about the marine who didn't have sufficient training or experience and still picked up that weapon?"

Solution: for as long as they're holding the weapon, they need support (training) to learn the skills that will enable them to make the most/proper use of it. To keep them alive so they can learn how to use it properly, or if they can't at least keep them alive (and provided meaningful opportunities) until they're able to come to the realization that they don't want to use it at all.

Smells like harm reduction

good natural progression! that was my present to you to finish that off



In other positive news - I am doing much better in general. This DLPA is a bit of wake up call to not let go of the ball. It's not time to experiment anymore and probably won't be for a long time until I find a good balance in "sober" life.

Still on the CBD and occasional ashwaganda. CBD has been extremely valuable for me actually overall. Also Inositol, Taurine, Magnesium and superfood blend high in B Vits all together, seems to provide an awesome "brain chemistry reset" when I'm feeling burnt out and have dealt with too much stress and anxiety in one day. It's got to be roughly 500mg Taurine, 500mg Inositol and minimum 100mg Magnesium.. (have found my old dose of 400mg magnesium actually gives me a headache for 24 hours). I can't tell you how much B vits are in there, but it's Dr S***** Superfood Complex (I won't turn this into a marketing post). Apart from that - totally changing diet and routine, diet is a big deal... eating shit and going to bed with shit food in my stomach gives me mood issues for hours into the next day and a shit night's sleep.

The biggest plus for me is re-establishing friendships at the moment. I have less fear and less shame at the moment, though I'm still pretty fucked up. The CBD plus general routine is helping with social anxiety now. Seems some friends who I've hardly seen for the last few years are still there for me... it's quite important for wellbeing and I get confused when people tell me it's good to see me... makes such a change from relentlessly beating myself up.

I've actually been getting buzzing just seeing people, sometimes buzzing well into the next day... weird. That said, sometimes it falls flat so the social anxiety still needs a lot of work. I did get my first craving yesterday to hide in drugs for the weekend instead of doing something relaxing or seeing my bro or something.

Wanted to post a little bit of positivity for now, perhaps I'll lay out a bit more of what's helping later. Don't want to go into a full wellbeing psychology rant right now

The biggest issue for now related to drugs is figuring out what my long term position is. But I kind of decided that I will have to figure that out later when I'm more stable. The issue there to be aware of would be complacency - falling back into insane behaviour (and expecting a different result).

 

[Jabberwocky]

Aww, that is so fucking awesome DTLC :D it's so wonderful to see how you have progressed in your efforts at recovery and ended up in the much healthier place you find yourself in today! Right on my friend! Keep up the great work!

And in terms of figuring your life out, you have the right attitude. Take things one day at a time. Focus on getting healthy right now and keeping your feet on the group. You'll build up momentum as you continue forward in your life. You've got the rest of your life to figure your shit out, so there is no rush!

Trust your intuition. You have an amazing heart and an amazing brain. Of course you still have some developing left to do (don't we all!), but that is what makes this process so special. You have no idea how far you'll go if you only allow yourself to keep blazing your own trail!

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

Damn, that sounds really shitty my friend! I would try and focus on the fact that as it gets out of your system you'll be feeling better and better. Supplements can be dangerous sometimes, as they're drugs in and of themselves of course and we're all effected differently by different things.

If you have any access to valerian root I'd suggest taking some of that, or some kava kava (or both). Might help relax you a bit. Likewise, taking some magnesium may help calm you down a bit. Definitely avoid caffeine and other stimulants until you're feeling better.

Honestly, I bet a nice hot bath or something relaxing like a sauna would be ideal for this kind of situation DTLC, if you're able to I mean. Hope you feel better ASAP!

thanks man - yeah I forgot about the fact I have some kava still lying around. Also have some ashwaganda. The fear now is interactions. Seems unlikely but the paranoia is real. I will stick with a tiny bit of kava and see how it goes.

A hot shower might be on the cards too... cheers!

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

@TPD kava seems to have helped take the edge off... that's some intense anxiety I tell you. Still fighting the fear a bit, might try a little ashwaganda too.

I had some warm milk and did some mild exercise (even though it's past midnight here), and rubbed a little magnesium oil in my head. The thing I don't like is the idea of "nerve damage" that I read about DLPA toxicity. But I read that in panic mode so I probably just saw all the negatives and was not objective about what I was reading.

I still have a strange feeling in my chest and the occasional nerve or muscle twitches, I know panic attacks often hit the chest, but I always had mine in the head. I guess post OD/hospital my new fear is my body and not just my head. Either way it was definitely a physiological response during onset. I did go for an intense swim yesterday, which was mostly just the equivalent of short sprints so my heart and chest are gonna be in recovery from that no doubt - it was my first swim since the hospital and my cardio is way off point atm - can't run longer than a few mins still.

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

yeaaahh, so that kava calmed me down for a bit but I had a resurgence... tried a little ashwaganda but too paranoid to take too much. How much has changed! 2 months ago I was happy to take 8 different substances in a day and not bat an eyelid!

so lay in bed awake for along time doing various calming and distracting techniques, hard work as this experience was way too close to the OD to just talk myself out of... but ultimately I got to sleep and it was fine and pretty much mostly panic/anxiety.

Found this today, and it pretty much describes the type of palpitations I was having and seems some people get them normally even without substances, so I'm grateful that I don't currently fall into that camp. I'm sure there is more out there but I'd rather not obsess over it - just avoid DLPA in future... I never had any reaction to it before though. I suppose my biochemistry has changed now somewhat.

http://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/showthread.php?t=113849

 

[DoctorMolecule]

Ashwaganda had helped me a lot, gonna give CBD oil a try just makes pot useless to me

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

Ashwaganda had helped me a lot, gonna give CBD oil a try just makes pot useless to me

yeah I think it works for me as I don't really use THC much at all...

I found co-administering it with some strong stimulating skunk took the edge of the skunk, but was still a nice buzz. I also found that using CBD oil the next day after being quite high, would give me a nice little resurgence of the high for a bit. I am a pretty sensitive guy though

I also found combining CBD with some sunshine or some funny social interaction with my brother etc would lead me to get much more euphoric/warm feelings than just those things alone.

The important thing is, straight hemp oil is supposed to be a waste of time. It needs to be CBD taken from strong plants. I use one called "entourage oil" as it's taken from a range of plants. I won't name the source but just shop around for non-hemp... 2 drops of 14% entourage oil under the tongue always calms me down a little. Doesn't make it all go away like an opiate buzz or benzos, but helps me manage reality better and take the edge of panic sensations.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I also found combining CBD with some sunshine or some funny social interaction with my brother etc would lead me to get much more euphoric/warm feelings than just those things alone.

These combos sound so right

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

These combos sound so right

hehe, yeah those are the shit!

from what I read somewhere, CBD increases "endocannabinoids" - the natural cannabinoid system in your body. I won't dig out a source but I can definitely feel it. What's great about it is it still requires some other positive stimulus to feel it, so there is no misnomer in just getting straight high but without any effort. There is the action/behaviour --> reward. That said, the CBD is still a crutch, but I reckon I would be in the shit without it. Probably the best discovery of the many things I've tried in recent history for my specific "hyper sensitive amygdala" type responses I get to anxiety triggers.

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

in other news, I still have this fucking "ectopic beat" or irregular heart beat since last weekend after taking that DLPA. It's really worrying, but some links I read said DLPA can act over 4 weeks on pain, so...

can't find any sources on half life, or mechanism of action. Just waiting it out, these kinds of irregular heart beat are not supposed to be that dangerous but it's giving me major health anxiety anyway which ends up self reinforcing. Kind of shitty to have thrown this spanner in the works of my progress

 

[Jabberwocky]

How do you know you have this ectopic beat thing? Have you had a cardiogram or something? Perhaps you should visit a cardiologist.

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

How do you know you have this ectopic beat thing? Have you had a cardiogram or something? Perhaps you should visit a cardiologist.

good point, it's a sudden large beat every few minutes. I wondered if it's a muscle twitch or any other chest thing, but it's pretty much definitely my heart. The gist of what I've read is that "many people have occasional irregular heart beats and it's normal", and have read a bunch of stories of people living with similar sensations and including 300 random irregular beats during a 24 hour period. I'm in that kind of range.

On this occasion, I'm trying not to get carried away with it, as I'm hoping it will go away. It's not there on waking and I'm not getting any other issues such as chest pain or dizzyness. I have booked a GP appt (for 2 weeks time).. for now I still feel the negative effects of the DLPA psychologically (increased anxiety/sensitivity) so I assume it's going to take a while to get out of my system.

Your post did make me think I should go to A&E just for an ECG - but that might be excessive, and it would mean revisiting the place of the OD trauma. I might phone the secondary emergency line, for non critical issues, and see what they say. I have also posted on here to see if anyone has any info I'm missing about DLPA.

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

basically this is kind of me, but his case is more extreme... FYI The heart palps/irregular beats seem to be less today than yesterday:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Supplements/comments/247572/warning_lphenylalanine_induced_panic_attacks/

I did use a bit of nicotine on that Friday night before the Saturday I started posting here. Gonna try some chamomile later today.

Seems to be literally DLPA comes in and eats out your other neurotransmitters and makes proteins and shit that you don't want there etc

I wish I had the money to go see a real pro nutritionist to get all my levels tested and a proper supplement diet instead of trying to figure out all this shit myself all the time...!

 

[Jabberwocky]

I'd schedule a normal appointment with your general practitioner doctor person and discuss your feelings about his all with them. They can recommend the ideal course of action for you. It doesn't sound like this is the kind of thing that requires emergency medical attention.

This is a good reminder that we all need to be careful with what we put into our bodies, which definitely includes supplements!

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

I'd schedule a normal appointment with your general practitioner doctor person and discuss your feelings about his all with them. They can recommend the ideal course of action for you. It doesn't sound like this is the kind of thing that requires emergency medical attention.

This is a good reminder that we all need to be careful with what we put into our bodies, which definitely includes supplements!

Done, 2 weeks basically on the NHS here... for now I'm messaging a few nutritionists to see if they can give me info on half life.


... madness really how these things are marketed and sold without much research and backing. I'm not against them per se, but I guess my experience gives me a negative outlook for now. It confirms the angle I was getting to during all the experiments, that supplements and amino acids and pretty much indistinguishable from drugs of all forms, they just happen to come in different (mostly cultural) packaging. Toxicity is just in the dose. It'll take a year or so before I know how I really feel, but for now I'm terrified of all substances... I even got momentarily scared of drinking fucking chamomile today! LOL

Have noticed a possible deal with the irregular heart beat. It potentially comes on stronger when I've been eating meat, which makes perfect sense as meat contains phenylalanine so I'm just topping up the dose. From the sources I found the D form potentially has a massive half life, nothing clear though.

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

going to try eating only veg and carbs for now and see how it goes

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

little update on the DLPA thing here. Still feeling nasty swings and the irregular beat/twitch but it's looking up and making more sense overall:

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...gular-heart-issues-after-taking-DLPA-84-hours


Hopefully I can move away more quickly from this hiccup soon (had a very positive night last night), and start to post a few more positive overviews of my "sober living" plan post Kratom/OD

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

some new conclusions and theories RE DLPA/ectopic beat

OK, sorry for lack of response - I now have come to some clearer conclusions and have some more infos about the DLPA effects. Comments are appreciated.

..

Went to doc, listened to heart, looked at me - said it didn't sound like an ectopic and my heart sounded nice and strong and regular. BP was a "bit high", HR was 73 - and I was anxious, so 73 not too bad IMO.

Had an ECG anyways, just a normal one, not 24 hour. Came back fine and normal. Dr says - it's anxiety.


But, I had a mega panic attack the day before, triggered by I don't know what.

I also now realise that I have intermittent twitches over my body, and the "ectopic" is probably muscle twitching in my chest. I just focused on that one and ignored the other twitches. I also have 24/7 twitching in my right calf, and some intermittent tremors. I get some fast tremors that come and go on my face, neck and left side. Also some squirming feelings.

I also have near 24/7 dizzyness, it gets worse when excited, anxious, angry etc. Exercise can help it go away.

All these can be symptoms of "just anxiety". They also point to nerve issues, which is one and the same with anxiety on many levels. MIND/BODY...


Evidence 1

I took more CBD oil for a few days, and one morning after woke up and had medium tremor in left hand/wrist for about 10 seconds, index fingers + other middle started spazzing out.

I need to point out one more time that DLPA - the D form in particular, is known to have lasting effects for 3-4 weeks therapeutically (and that doesn't mean that there is no more action after that). D forms are long lasting and many are toxic, I guess they make fundamental changes to proteins - I don't have the source right now sorry, but I am still feeling the effects from this I am certain. I spent some days walking around feeling high just after exercising or having a nice night with family etc. DLPA inhibits break down of these happy chemicals, and seems to for a long time.

DLPA and anti psychotics are known to cause and worsen tardive dyskinesia... AFAIK I have some early suggestive symptoms of early TD due to some dopaminergic action going on between the DLPA and the CBD.


Evidence 2

I took 200mg theanine, with some lemon balm, and I went into overdrive. Possibly on the edge of seizure. Walking in sunlight calmed me down a bit, but for about an hour or 2 I was in a very bad place, it was intensely physiological, worse than the anxiety of the DLPA night. I didn't measure my heart rate but it was very high.

Paradoxical reaction due to inability to break down dopamine or some such?

I then traced my previous mega panic attack and mania episode to a day of drinking tea and decaffinated green tea to get some extra theanine, but who knows it may have been "all in my mind". I doubt it.

Anyone who believes this is not a legitimate reaction to theanine, just google - some people have paradoxical reactions to things because their chemistry is messed up.


Evidence 3

I have numbness, tingling - "peripheral neuropathy" basically, since the DLPA and especially after the theanine and stress induced episodes.

Aspartame is linked to peripheral neuropathy.


Evidence 4

I've had these brain zap things for years and never knew what they were. I now started to realise they are nerves on the outside, not in my brain. So, I have pre-existing nerve damage from a toxic drug episode years ago, and they DLPA (+CBD?) combo has made it worse. Excitotoxicity, excess glutamate, inflammation, NMDA upregulation perhaps (I'm getting out of my depth here but feel free to elaborate on these ideas if you like).

I have discovered that anti inflammatories reduce the discomfort in my left hand side head and reduce the "brain zaps". I basically have brain or nerve inflammation already. Most of the tremors have occurred on my left hand side. Most of the supposed "ectopic beats" were on the left hand side or middle of chest.


The last piece of hypothesis, and I won't cite all of the evidence because it gets boring, is unproven and borders on OCD health anxiety - is that I have elevated copper levels and have done for some time. Much of my symptoms and reactions to drugs and in particular DLPA (+CBD) point to that being a possiblity. I'll just say I've had excessive stressors over the years, new copper taps in my bathroom that I drink out of all the time, and have eaten an insane amount of dark chocolate. Around +1 year of the time of the taps installation and the increased chocolate intake, I was very stressed and very busy, and I had my first major toxic drug episode that triggered the brain zaps and high anxiety I have had til this day.

I consistently have responded to drugs in a highly sensitive way over the last 5 years, which all point to an inability to break them down in a normal manner. My biochemistry is weird, could be copper related among other things.


Conclusion

So I have some sort of nerve damage and a messed up biochemistry... I'm going to have some biochemical/mineral tests done to start to figure out where the imbalance is. I should have done this years ago - I've been running around therapists and psychiatrists for 4 years trying to figure this out...

Ideally I want to repair my system and get rid of the tremors and twitches, brain zaps and peripheral neuropathy. Brain zaps and anxiety seem possible to deal with especially now I see the link with inflammation, and as this is all part of a nervous disorder or "anxiety disorder", one would hope the other symptoms go away too.

Any thoughts on this? Help and advice would be interesting on my ideas. I'm sorry but I'm not the type of guy to post scientific sources to all this, but I've been on my phone researching for over a week and also looking at other case studies etc... Also there's not exactly any info that's been researched on the interactions between "entourage" CBD and DLPA. Only standard antipsychotics...


I don't log in much at the moment as I'm trying to avoid triggering more health anxiety until I'm strong enough, so forgive me if I'm slow to reply.

And please don't go posting "dizzyness + nerve issues + X = Y disease", I know I am at elevated risk of many things right now, but I'm trying to be rational and cautious about jumping to conclusions. I will visit my doc and probably a neurologist soon too.

Thanks

 

[DoctorMolecule]

My cessation from Kratom was successful, it's been almost two months since my last dose, the first seven days required my withdrawl kit, now I'm just smoking pot in the evenings.