A skeptical view of psychedelic revelations

[perpetualdawn]

Good advice BT. I share your model that "entities" are manifestations of the self, anthropomorphized into separate beings. But by being dismissive of them I could really miss out on valuable insight coming from other parts of my brain that aren't normally able to directly "talk" to my consciousness. But by treating them as if they are real, it can allow them to transmit info. At the end of it all it's worth analyzing the validity or usefulness of whatever insight is imparted, and to treat the entity as part of myth/archetype/subconscious space.

I've never had a straight up separate entity contact, where there was some kind of communication on PDs, but have had very convincing contacts in between awake and dream states. One time I gained a very valuable insight from an ancient ancestor, and that to this day I partially believe that it was a real contact with some old grandfather spirit.

Edit: I guess what I like about that perspective is that it allows the coexistence of the rational mind, and the mythical mind.

 

[pmoseman]

I was visited by Jimmy Hendrix and he taught me how to play the guitar. I can still play all his stuff rather well.

Occasionally I am visited by those I know or had known in real life as well.

Certain dreams will occur many times over until some break through occurs Then they will become a point of departure.

Currently there is a complex landscape of a dozen or so areas combined with dreams and memories, eg peanut butter in a graveyard. They are each my favorite place for their own reason.

You can visit them, they exist on Earth, but you would never know the memories they hold, or what I will be searching for when I visit.

 

[TruffulaTree]

how do you achieve those dreams? do you take anything like african dream root or are you just really good at lucid dreaming?

 

[Xorkoth]

Edit: I guess what I like about that perspective is that it allows the coexistence of the rational mind, and the mythical mind.

Honestly, I believe that's part of being human. All cultures have it. We're spiritual beings and I wonder at the effect it can have on a person's psyche to have no connection to that, it's something that developed in our brains through evolution.

 

[pmoseman]

how do you achieve those dreams? do you take anything like african dream root or are you just really good at lucid dreaming?

Just day dreams, hazy recollections, and vivid dreams intercepted by memory.

 

[perpetualdawn]

how do you achieve those dreams? do you take anything like african dream root or are you just really good at lucid dreaming?

Sounds like you were talking to pmoseman, but I'll pipe in too. The dream I'm talking about happened spontaneously, as I was waking up in the morning. I hadn't set any intention, or taken anything, but maybe sleeping a bit more than regular. It really came out of nowhere and was so profound, I bolted out of bed after and felt very moved. The dream/vision addressed a big question that I had been holding for a long time, so the rational explanation is that it was my subconscious supplying an answer.

As a kid I used to be a really good lucid dreamer, I'd have lucid dreams all the time and control them, fly etc. I think it came out of a necessity to control my nightmares. I still have lucid dreams once in a while, but a busy adult life has drawn me more into the real world, and less in the dream world.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Can any true believers viewing the thread ask the entities they contact if formication is the result of actual invisible/spiritual/alternate-dimensional bugs being irresistibly attracted to tweakers? If so, is there some ritual that can ward them off? A wreath of laurel, with a few crystals thrown in for good measure, perhaps?

And since everybody is preaching to the choir, let me play the skeptic:

Y'all say that psychedelics give valuable revelations (and I would be hesitant to put the sort of introspective stuff you can gain from a session or two with a psychiatric professional under that umbrella), yet you could not name a single one. I am more incredulous of your claims now than when I entered this thread.

 

[treezy z]

honestly i don't like a lot of the shit that's been written about the psychedelic experience because it's gonna influence you to experience what the writer experienced and possibly wants you to experience. the biggest load of dogshit i've read about it is "the psychedelic experience" by timothy leary and the other dude who wrote that book.

 

[Foreigner]

I guess because I've spent a lot of time with Buddhism and debunking mind, reality, and projection, it matters very little to me whether or not what I'm witnessing is real or an hallucination. This movie we're in is capable of producing anything, and it's all present awareness which perceives it. I feel that the author of the article is correct in saying you should not fill uncertainty with idle stories, but on the other hand he doesn't take his theory to its natural conclusion. He says the psychedelic state is like a dream, so then what is the state of sobriety, in that case? No, I'm not talking about psychotic breaks here... I'm talking about a logical interrogation of what people call stone cold sober reality. Why is "reality" not a dream but psychedelic hallucinations are?

Implying that all vision comes from "self" is distinctly modern western. From a place of present awareness, there is no reality and no self perceiving it, so I don't really agree with his belief that all psychedelic phenomena stem from self. It is very clear that at higher doses of LSD and comparable psychedelics, ego is dissolved to the point where the subject-object relationship ceases to matter, unlike in a dream (which the author compares it to) where there is often still that relationship even if we don't necessarily have direct control over it. It's all oneness, whether it's oneness hallucinating or oneness having tea at a cafe on a sunny day. Literary distinctions are mental masturbation over pseudo-separateness.

It's interesting to observe a seasoned psychedelic user attempt to parse projections through the duality of selfhood vs. hallucination, when the very notion of self within an intense psychedelic state is paradoxical. In other words, it's somewhat ironic that the author postulates all hallucinations come from "self" when self itself is not veritably real. Psychedelics taught me that I am not mind, I am not self, I am simply present awareness and there is no "I" in here.

His beliefs are interesting, but I do not resonate with all of them.

 

[pmoseman]

The evidence for me is the contradiction about knowledge. How do you not know any facts about reality if only you exist?

If there is no you then there is nothing but you. It is the ultimate ego-trip. You and all is inseparable. But you do not know the all and cannot answer my questions.

That lack of knowledge about reality shows you are wrong about dismissing reality.

This is an experience of something outside yourself. Perhaps you must choose to experience it, but it is veritable

You are the one controlling your experience, alone. My experience of you is controlled by me.

Your mind is prepared to interpret reality
not knowing what reality holds. This type of mind can separate from reality. It is open, but not detached.

This explains your experience as being out of reality, out of yourself as part of this reality. But without ego there plainly is no experience. Without you in reality there is no experience, thus sleep is explained.

In sleep we meet and experience nothing. The belief you have does not explain sleep. It avoids explaining anything at all.

To remove all the rules and say all is the imagination is not an intellectual process, it is a leap of logic and one kind of many types of self-hypnosis.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Why is "reality" not a dream but psychedelic hallucinations are

Why sober-consciousness is "real": Its utility far exceeds that of alternative states of consciousness. I'm a bit of an instrumentalist, if you can't tell.

Why the dream metaphor: Notice how the walls stop bending when the drugs wear off? You can make a video record of them while they're bendy, and I promise that when you review it after sobering up, you will find that they remained static the whole time. Dreaming and hallucinations both involve sensory perceptions occurring in the absence of appropriate stimuli, so it's reasonable to compare them.

Which brings us to:

(a) It's all oneness, whether it's oneness hallucinating or oneness having tea at a cafe on a sunny day.
(b) Literary distinctions are mental masturbation over pseudo-separateness.

(a) The perception of colorful geometric patterns flying around through the air caused by psychoactive consumption, and perceptions reliant upon EM radiation reflected off of matter stimulating the retina, are of equal epistemic value?
(b) Says the existence monist. 8)

I don't really agree with his belief that all psychedelic phenomena stem from self.

Ah, you are right. I went back over the article, and he does include the term ego, preceded by a definite article. I don't agree with that belief either.

Psychedelics taught me that I am not mind, I am not self, I am simply present awareness and there is no "I" in here.

Alright, so here's a specific psychedelic revelation!

How has this unfalsifable metaphysical position knowledge positively affected your life?

 

[Foreigner]

The evidence for me is the contradiction about knowledge. How do you not know any facts about reality if only you exist?

I'm not claiming that only I exist. My feeling on this is that it can't be known either way. I'm simply putting forth an expanded definition of "reality" beyond all the artificial parsing. Saying this here is real and that over there is not is utterly meaningless from the perspective of present awareness, and it shouldn't be taken as gospel, especially if its intended use is to override to sovereign experiences of psychedelic users.

You can use your free will and choice to determine realness all you like but it's never going to stick with everyone.

If there is no you then there is nothing but you. It is the ultimate ego-trip. You and all is inseparable. But you do not know the all and cannot answer my questions.

Linguistically, I prefer to parse you (ego) from you (present awareness), which I describe more below. It's hard to do in casual conversation though.

That lack of knowledge about reality shows you are wrong about dismissing reality.

The universe contains everything and its contradiction, but that's intellectualizing it (which is fine). What I'm referring to is present awareness which accompanies us through all experience, no matter what the intellectual mind has to say about it. When we were born as a clean slate, we were pure awareness. Then it added layer upon layer of self-reaffirming axioms. I'm not placing infanthood on a pedestal, I'm trying to demonstrate core awareness beyond language and ego identity. You can understand this through meditation and stilling your mind.

When you're having a psychedelic ego dissolving experience, all that remains is "you" in the veritable sense, not a personable, self-constructed "you". That's why I disagree with the author's use of "self" as the origin of the projection. If self is the be all and end all, then that means our psychedelic experiences all stem from the sum of our subjective, intellectualized temporal experience, as opposed to pure consciousness simply observing it. Which means, in theory, if you gave that newborn some LSD, aside from some pretty visuals, they would have no relationship to the experience at all because selfhood is not formed yet.

This is an experience of something outside yourself. Perhaps you must choose to experience it, but it is veritable.

We can't know what is outside of ourselves because even neurophysiologically the experience is generated from within after raw data is collected through the senses. That we can agree on common reality does not negate that it is an internal projection, but that agreement is based on assumptions. No one really knows anyone.

You are the one controlling your experience, alone. My experience of you is controlled by me.

Thus people can choose to accept a psychedelic experience as real, or not. In a more new age way: it's your creation so do what you want with it.

Your mind is prepared to interpret reality not knowing what reality holds. This type of mind can separate from reality. It is open, but not detached.

Again, I never claimed to be beyond the system. What I'm saying is that the system is capable of generating anything and everything, and I don't experience it as discrete dimensions of reality but rather all one thing. It's like a ticker tape. In this part of the ticker tape I'm typing on a machine on a forum, in the next I could be tripping and seeing entities. The layer of consciousness that wishes to quibble over what is real has no relevance to present awareness which is simply experiencing it regardless.

This explains your experience as being out of reality, out of yourself as part of this reality. But without ego there plainly is no experience. Without you in reality there is no experience, thus sleep is explained.

I never claimed to be above or outside of reality. That's impossible. I'm challenging the dualistic assumption that this over here is real, and that over there is not real.

In sleep we meet and experience nothing. The belief you have does not explain sleep. It avoids explaining anything at all.

Maybe you experience nothing. My dream world is florid and lucid most of the time. Again... just another piece of the ticker tape that present awareness is observing.

To remove all the rules and say all is the imagination is not an intellectual process, it is a leap of logic and one kind of many types of self-hypnosis.

You are you calling it imagination vs. logic. I never said anything of the sort.

I'm not trying to say that there isn't an inherent "realness" to existence. What I'm doing here is putting forth my thoughts on challenging pre-conceived notions about who/what the experiencer is. Saying that all psychedelic experience comes from self is a major epistemological assumption, but one which the author graciously frames as a "belief" like any other. I can respect him for that.

 

[Foreigner]

Why sober-consciousness is "real": Its utility far exceeds that of alternative states of consciousness. I'm a bit of an instrumentalist, if you can't tell.

Yeah I can... your definition is pretty utilitarian, but utility is defined by circumstance. The utility of a psychedelic is vast if the person wants to visit another dimension and believes a psych will do that for them.

Why the dream metaphor: Notice how the walls stop bending when the drugs wear off? You can make a video record of them while they're bendy, and I promise that when you review it after sobering up, you will find that they remained static the whole time. Dreaming and hallucinations both involve sensory perceptions occurring in the absence of appropriate stimuli, so it's reasonable to compare them.

Those intellectual markers are not very useful because consciousness alters on its own, without drugs, all the time. From sleeping to wakefulness. From calmness to adrenaline. From pain to bliss. As for stimuli, no one on this planet exists in a vacuum and science does not yet understand consciousness or the extent of its perceptual capabilities; therefore, what you currently see as lacking in stimuli may actually be teeming with unseen interactions.

I can't rely on intellect alone to determine truth in my experiences. What prompts people to declare that what just happened "wasn't real" was a sum of what they were taught to believe and accept about reality, nothing more. There are plenty of cultures, mostly indigenous, who do not see a linear distinction between altered and non-altered consciousness, the dream or the awakening. The only thing that matters is what your heart tells you about the truth of the experience.

Which brings us to:

(a) The perception of colorful geometric patterns flying around through the air caused by psychoactive consumption, and perceptions reliant upon EM radiation reflected off of matter stimulating the retina, are of equal epistemic value?

Yes? No? I don't know. Do a survey.

(b) Says the existence monist. 8)

Actually I'm not a monist, I'm just an annoying contrarian who loves to argue. I naturally question consensus opinions, especially when it comes to consciousness, mostly because I've had experiences which contradict every so-called concrete view. For everything you seem to think I believe in, I've probably had an experience that would make me question it. *shrug*

How has this unfalsifable metaphysical position knowledge positively affected your life?

It has shown me that most positions are prisons. I'm in love with a mystery that I don't understand, which I why I care not to quibble over certainties. Anything we say (including what I've said) is all just a story. People are at where they're at and there's no point arguing. I just enjoy the mind exercise sometimes.

Coming from a place of present awareness, none of us are different from one another and nothing is wrong.

 

[perpetualdawn]

Y'all say that psychedelics give valuable revelations (and I would be hesitant to put the sort of introspective stuff you can gain from a session or two with a psychiatric professional under that umbrella), yet you could not name a single one. I am more incredulous of your claims now than when I entered this thread.

In my life, psychedelic drugs have facilitated profound insights. Some of them fit into your umbrella of the kind of stuff I could have come to with a psychiatric professional, but most often I wouldn't have even thought of seeing one because I didn't know the issue was there, until the PD trip. Plus PDs are a lot more fun than a shrink. Some of them don't fit in that category because they are more along lines of artistic insight, observations of the natural world, or physical feats.

I started typing up a list of revelations, but then felt like I was over-sharing. I could type for hours about various revelations I've arrived at on PDs. Have you not ever come to a useful revelation on psychedelics Never Knows Best? I'm skeptical of your skepticism

 

[pmoseman]

Implying that all vision comes from "self" is distinctly modern western.

"In reality, I am the same infinite Brahman, even when I am experiencing myself as a finite self, owing to ignorance."
Mahānārāyaṇa Upaniṣad (3rd Century)

"That the individual beings are but illusory appearances of a monistic reality."
Vasubandhu (4th Century)

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Have you not ever come to a useful revelation on psychedelics Never Knows Best?

I have learned things mainstream mental healthcare later brought up (e.g. I am disengaged from reality and live inside of my head, where my anxiety makes imagined plans go wrong, so I don't even try'em IRL), and I have been thrown into painful confrontation with some emotional stuff. However, I cannot think of a single concrete example of how any of this led to a positive change in my behavior, which leaves me doubtful that I have gained anything from my psychedelic use.

I do not apply this to everyone else, 'specially since my mental health is...inadequate.

stuff I could have come to with a psychiatric professional, but most often I wouldn't have even thought of seeing one because I didn't know the issue was there

I'm hesistant to put this stuff in the same category, since while psychedelics can provide this benefit, the risk profile is far greater than that of dealing with someone trained to figure out/help you figure out your brain.

Plus PDs are a lot more fun than a shrink.

Well, I haven't experienced anything as euphoric as a good trip, but the latter method of learning can be pretty fun to. It's where I'm getting this specific example thing from, they attack me with that mercilessly, I have learned that my strong preference for abstraction has "helped" with rationalization as much as it has helped with rationality.



So I still would like to see one example from those who can give'em. Also, not relating a concrete experience/anecdote means that your posts are only intelligible to people who have a conception of how one might benefit from the psychedelic experience. To someone without the means to imagine those potential gains, it would appear that no one in here has said anything substantive.

 

[pmoseman]

(1) I guess because I've spent a lot of time with Buddhism and debunking mind, reality, and projection, it matters very little to me whether or not what I'm witnessing is real or an hallucination. This movie we're in...
(2) It's all oneness, whether it's oneness hallucinating or oneness having tea at a cafe on a sunny day.
(3)... it's somewhat ironic that the author postulates all hallucinations come from "self" when self itself is not veritably real. Psychedelics taught me that I am not mind, I am not self, I am simply present awareness and there is no "I" in here.

(1) You are saying that "reality" is bunk.
In which case I must be a picnic table.

(2) That others do not exist. That everything is you.
You are indeed one person, so there is your oneness you are feeling. The totality of you and the totality of all are not the same thing because you do not know or control reality.

(3) And that your awareness is separate from your existence.
Fall asleep, wake up, remember nothing. This is a non-experience that contradicts the idea that experience is universal.

 

[Xorkoth]

(3) And that your awareness is separate from your existence.
Fall asleep, wake up, remember nothing. This is a non-experience that contradicts the idea that experience is universal.

What about falling asleep, waking up, and remembering a vivid dream?

So I still would like to see one example from those who can give'em. Also, not relating a concrete experience/anecdote means that your posts are only intelligible to people who have a conception of how one might benefit from the psychedelic experience. To someone without the means to imagine those potential gains, it would appear that no one in here has said anything substantive.

I will give several:

During a trip I experienced my sense of self that I normally experienced as a unified whole, split into several parts. I experiences these parts as individual entities which were sometimes aware of each other and sometimes not. I witnessed how these parts interacted, and in some cases, interacted in conflict with one another, causing internal strife. Upon emerging from my psychedelic state I remembered these correlations and was able to apply them in such a way that I broke through the depression I had been feeling because I was able to understand where some of that conflict was coming from and put it in its place. Though it was not a permanent solution, it did launch me into a period of several years where I lived my life much more fully and happily.

During a trip, I experienced myself as a spiritual being, in the sense that I was, at the core, the same force of awareness that we all are. This realization led me to realize my spirituality, whereas before I had been decided atheistic, believing that when we die that is all there is. I changed from existing in a cynical and fairly depressing worldview, to one that has since brought me immeasurable happiness and satisfaction. It altered the course of my life forever (or at least, ever since - I can't claim to know what the future holds).

Because of that same realization (which I had on a number of trips, though none so impactful as that first one, since that was the one that actually changed my viewpoint), I was able to much more easily feel empathy for other humans and animals, because of my belief that we are all from the same cloth. This has brought me an immeasurable amount of happiness and contentment with life, as feeling empathy and love brings me great happiness. Could I have arrived here without psychedelics? Sure, probably, but that's not what happened. And thus a useful benefit was derived directly from a psychedelic experience.

 

[phuckingnutz]

Why the dream metaphor: Notice how the walls stop bending when the drugs wear off? You can make a video record of them while they're bendy, and I promise that when you review it after sobering up, you will find that they remained static the whole time. Dreaming and hallucinations both involve sensory perceptions occurring in the absence of appropriate stimuli, so it's reasonable to compare them.

Yes BUT, what if you were to view the video while tripping...the walls would be bendy again....all that the video does is film what is really there.
However, when you SEE the video straight your filters are, again, on-line and your mind sees the filtered version of reality regardless of what the video actually filmed.
So, video is not a valid way to tell if what you were experiencing was "real" or not.

 

[xammy]

Good read. Insta favorited.

Personally I've always been disgusted by people who conceive themselves as "enlightened" after psychedelic use.

Even tho I've been in "another dimensions", it seems that I can't really put it into words what I have learned from hallucinogens.

One thing that comes to my mind is that I'm not so afraid of death after diving into the abyss. I've been into places that goes beyond imagination, but that doesn't make me better than anyone else. It's sad that many people go their whole lives without experiencing these altered states, but that doesnt make their lives any less "good" or less meaningful.

Most importantly, psychedelics have made me appreciate everyday life.

Think about socialization. It's said that it happens in interaction between individual and society. You learn the norms and rules of society etc.. Then you go and take a psychedelic substance. This often happens when youre 16-20, very sensitive age to a person to be influenced, not only by drugs but by other people (especially by significant others). It shows you something completely new and changes your whole perception - no wonder why some people really take that as absolute truth, especially when there is so much propaganda going on about drugs. Its so conflicting, you take something relatively safe that is said to be the most dangerous thing ever and have a deep experience, it really takes some time to put things into perspective.