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A Guide and FAQ: What to do when someone Overdoses (work in progress)

Flexistentialist said:
It's dangerous advice that is only vaguely useful in a limited context in one country.

I'd wager a guess that 80-90% of OD is in the good ol' USA. So its useful to most of us here. Limited context? I disagree. This info will be useful for anyone who has a friend/acquaintance overdose in their present. Hopefully they have already read the guide and know how to act at that point.

If you live in another country, you could most likely make an addendum for how things would run in your country, which probably isn't a police state like the US.
 
There's not even mention of clearing airways, or breathing for someone - basic airway management. CPR isn't rocket science, and in fact a half properly managed opiate overdose can be dealt with just by breathing for someone, not even any chest compressions needed.

This FAQ essentially is condoning putting your mates life over you getting busted. How does that constitute harm reduction? Maybe the lucky person who doesn't get busted, but what about their mate who has a permanent brain injury (or worse).

Do the mods here believe that not getting busted is more important than a hypoxic brain injury?
 
^ no, we dont believe that, its just the simple truth that a lot of people actual do value their freedom more than their buddies lives.

Its mind blowing, but its true. This guide is for those people.

If you arent one of those people, then carry on as you normall do.
 
There's not even mention of checking a pulse, clearing airways, or breathing for someone.

Yes there is. Check the part where it says, in the first subsection (or second section) "How to check if someone overdosed" that was contributed by jykkE.

Secondly, those who know how to properly do such procedures and got the medical training to do so will know to do these as appropriate. Unless you have taken a class for it, do not attempt to do it. I am most certainly not going to try to teach people how to do it over the internet, nor would it be safe to do so.

Third, if someone has overdosed, these techniques will not save them. It's not like a piece of food stuck in the throat, you're Central Nervous System has literally shut down. They will be unresponsive to such treatments.

CPR isn't rocket science, and in fact a half properly managed opiate overdose can be dealt with just by breathing for someone, not even any chest compressions needed.

No they cannot, and I think it's pretty dangerous advice to say. An opiate overdose needs immediate medical attention, do not try to say to people that they can somehow avoid calling 911. They need to call 911, no matter what they think they know.

This FAQ essentially is condoning putting your mates life over you getting busted. How does that constitute harm reduction? Maybe the lucky person who doesn't get busted, but what about their mate who has a permanent brain injury (or worse).

No, it hasn't. This guide has done everything in trying to tell people how to get the EMT to the person as soon as possible, with information for paranoid people that would have no impact on how fast the EMT got to the person.

There are many situations when someone overdoses, that you may be around people who aren't as knowledgeable. As I stated, the last thing you need is some junky forcibly preventing you from getting help.

If you actually read the damn thing, you'll see that all the steps are clearly explained, and that any of the 'ass saving' measures have no impact on how fast the help would arrive, and many of them actually help the EMT get their quicker, such as moving the body to somewhere more visible.

but what about their mate who has a permanent brain injury (or worse).

A drug overdose and their life is much more pressing than any possible damage incurred by the drug overdose.

Sorry, but you're mentioning an awful lot of things that are actually more dangerous.

Do not attempt CPR if you aren't trained!
Doing CPR will not metabolize or inactivate the body of toxins!
 
Thanks so much everyone for the help and pointers. The mad props I got for this really gave me the support to finish this up! I know who you are, and so do you.

junglistsoldier42 pointed out some solid info and gave some info from a background that was helpful. Thanks mang.

Thanks jykkE, some of the info you threw up I did post in the thread.

Thanks center you gave quite a bit of info and support.

Thanks sonic and GeneralMind for the green light.

Thanks to the Testing Grounds Forum and moderators for letting me use your forum. Thanks felix.

Especially thanks to Sixpartseven, he was everything for this. While I may have been everything you saw on the work, he was everything that was behind it.
 
Then "those people" should be aware of the legal repercussions that come from failing to render assistance and interfering with a corpse.

As the FAQ currently reads, it says there will be no repercussions regardless of where you are in the world. This is totally false. There are both criminal and civil proceedings than can from from this, in most developed countries in the world.

This is really dangerous advice that doesn't fit with the mission of Bluelight. No harm is reduced by dragging an unconscious person to a street corner rather than rendering basic assistance. And don't try to make out that clearing an airway and breathing for someone is too complex and difficult for someone to manage. It's extremely easy to teach / learn basic first aid that could actually save someone's life.

That's all I'm saying on this. Do you guys (mods, specifically) even understand the idea of harm reduction?
 
Then "those people" should be aware of the legal repercussions that come from failing to render assistance and interfering with a corpse.

You're calling in someone who's dying. There is no legal repercussions to doing what I outlined. Period.

As the FAQ currently reads, it says there will be no repercussions regardless of where you are in the world. This is totally false. There are both criminal and civil proceedings than can from from this, in most developed countries in the world.

You are moving a body so the EMT can see it quicker. There is nothing shiesty or shady about this. There is no alternative motive here. You're moving the body so the EMT can get to it. I'm not saying move it to over yonder and beyond, I'm just saying moving it somewhere realistically close for the EMT to see the person quicker. You can so much as move them only to your front porch, if thats as far as you can get them.

The point is don't leave them inside, you need to be able to wave down the EMT if you stay with the body, or have the body recognizable from the street so the EMT knows exactly where to stop.

No harm is reduced by dragging an unconscious person to a street corner rather than rendering basic assistance.

Yes, there is. The EMT sees what's going on much quicker and gets to the person quicker.

Quit saying street corner and twisting words. I understand if you disagree, but you don't need to play the politician card and paint a nasty, untrue picture of what I'm saying. Just talk real man, you don't need to spin it.

This is the NO-SPIN zone dawg.

Okay I don't mean to be condescending but seriously, stop saying street corner like that. I said "well lit, public and safe", which can include a street corner of a certain kind. Not the "street corner" your use of the word implies.

It's very clear in my guide I do not recommend leaving them on just a "street corner" like you're trying to imply I did and paint a nasty picture.

And don't try to make out that clearing an airway and breathing for someone is too complex and difficult for someone to manage.

Bro if you can even manage to say your name when someone has overdosed, I'd be surprised. Obviously you've never been in the situation, but let me tell you, if you can do all this then you must've had military training or something. It's the most fierce, intense, and downright scariest moment I hope you'll never experience.

Yes, it is that difficult. The stress is unreal. Don't pretend you'd play cool buddy, because it's totally different to be in it than to just talk about it. Even I'm full of shit for writing a guide like this, because I don't know if I'd play all that. I do know one thing though - I'd call 911 first thing after having read this guide and understanding this.

It's extremely easy to teach / learn basic first aid that could actually save someone's life.

I don't think you understand - all these techniques, won't save their life. They need professional and chemical assistance. These techniques won't do anything to inhibit the drug or metabolize them. It's not like a piece of food in their throat that you just pop out, or water in their lungs you pump out, or a temporary lapse in breathing.

They're fucking CNS is knocked out. All other instances where such 'basic first aid' procedures are used, do not involve chemicals in their brain that are actively doing a part to shut down the brain.

You can't just do these things and bring an overdose victim to come to. YOU NEED TO CALL 911, you can't just play doctor like this.

You're information could be perceived as an alternative to calling 911, and as so it's dangerous. It also implies that people could just 'easily' do these things and save the person, they can't. They may very well hurt the person unless medically trained.

What you say is 'basic and easy' is not as easy as you say it is. These are not 'easy' procedures - while basic, they often times result in injury. Given that they will do nothing to revert the drug overdose, what is your point?
 
I wasn't going to say anything else, however I will point out that I've been personally involved in more overdose situations than I can remember, including some that turned out fatal, others with permanent hypoxic brain injury and others where everything turned out fine. Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.
 
I've been personally involved in more overdose situations than I can remember, including some that turned out fatal, others with permanent hypoxic brain injury and others where everything turned out fine. Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

I'm very sorry for saying you never been in the situation and being condescending. That was just wrong of me and I crossed a line to be so presumptuous.

I'm so sorry. It's a terrible situation, truly frightening, and sorry to have belittled you for a terrible experience you had and saying you never had it. What I did was like telling a war veteran he's never been in combat when his buddies have died because I didn't know better. It's like saying you're friends deaths didn't matter.

I feel so bad for what I did. Those experiences were very real to you, I'm sure of that, and I just basically said they never happened. I hope you can accept my apology even if you disagree with my guide, which I'll be happy to continue discourse on. I like you man, and I've just been very fierce in defending this guide. It needs to be correct and clear, and I believe, I know, it's correct info no matter how callous or how compassionate or what country you're in. So please, continue talking if I haven't pissed you off too much.

I was wrong in what I said, and an apology is due. I know I've very stubborn and arrogant, because I believe I am correct. But when I'm wrong I will admit it. I'm apologizing for wrongly being condescending based on the presumption you have never been in an overdose situation (I still think my guide is correct though, and what much of you said is wrong).

I really appreciate your input and I have addressed it in my guide.
 
center said:
It's cool 6/7. You know you're my doggy.

Let's not de-rail this any further however...

You can be arrested for being around a dying heroin/opiate user, even if you possess no substances?


My understanding is that if no paraphenalia or drugs are found then you cannot be charged. The hard part is that when someone is about to die, you don't always think about getting rid of your stash.
 
Missykins said:
My understanding is that if no paraphenalia or drugs are found then you cannot be charged. The hard part is that when someone is about to die, you don't always think about getting rid of your stash.

thats not entirely true. there is recent legislation in some states that allow cops to charge you with possession simply for having the drugs in your system (blood test). this is not nation wide and is not a frequent thing, but its possible.

either way, i still dont feel comfortable advising people to dump the body on street corner. there are many situations in which you need to stay with the victim to keep them in the recovery position/monitor breathing. i personally know i someone who would have died if their friends did not stay with them until the ambulance arrived. i vote for a revision of the FAQ..

9 times out of ten, if you call in a heart attack or "unresponsive" person, the ambulance will arrive without cops and will take away the victim with no charges pressed against the caller. yeah, i guess its not always necessary to stay with the victim, but in certain cases it could cost them their lives if left alone. i dont know about everyone else, but i would risk a possession charge to stick around and make sure my buddy lived another day.
 
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chinacat311 said:
i vote for a revision of the FAQ...

I respect the idea, but thats not going to happen.

What I suggest, for those who dont agree with this one, is to write one of their own. If you want, PM me and I will help you out just as much as I helped TR out with this one. I dont discriminate (that much.)


What you have to remember is this FAQ is not for everybody. Its directed at the legally paranoid drug user. The drug user who fears the law. Write one for people who arent concerned with that so much. Write one similar to this, but explain what to do while waiting for the EMS. Thats the best advice I can give you.
 
chinacat311 said:
thats not entirely true. there is recent legislation in some states that allow cops to charge you with possession simply for having the drugs in your system (blood test). this is not nation wide and is not a frequent thing, but its possible.

either way, i still dont feel comfortable advising people to dump the body on street corner. there are many situations in which you need to stay with the victim to keep them in the recovery position/monitor breathing. i personally know i someone who would have died if their friends did not stay with them until the ambulance arrived. i vote for a revision of the FAQ..

9 times out of ten, if you call in a heart attack or "unresponsive" person, the ambulance will arrive without cops and will take away the victim with no charges pressed against the caller. yeah, i guess its not always necessary to stay with the victim, but in certain cases it could cost them their lives if left alone. i dont know about everyone else, but i would risk a possession charge to stick around and make sure my buddy lived another day.

Cops come with the ambulance in my town.
I'm appalled to learn that you can be charged for possession because of a tox screen.
 
Missykins said:
Cops come with the ambulance in my town.

thats just for when a drug overdose is called in right? or do you mean a cop accompanies every ambulance call? man i would hate to live in a small town. the cop thing is why Theodore recommended calling in ah heart attack or "unresponsive person" so there potentially isnt any legal trouble.
 
either way, i still dont feel comfortable advising people to dump the body on street corner. there are many situations in which you need to stay with the victim to keep them in the recovery position/monitor breathing. i personally know i someone who would have died if their friends did not stay with them until the ambulance arrived. i vote for a revision of the FAQ..

9 times out of ten, if you call in a heart attack or "unresponsive" person, the ambulance will arrive without cops and will take away the victim with no charges pressed against the caller. yeah, i guess its not always necessary to stay with the victim, but in certain cases it could cost them their lives if left alone. i dont know about everyone else, but i would risk a possession charge to stick around and make sure my buddy lived another day.

I stated very clearly that you can stay with the body if you want. I actually wrote that you stay with the body, but you can leave.

I wouldn't feel comfortable dumping a body either, but when you consider the most likely alternative of a junky or cracked out drug user - to simply not do anything at all - then yea, calling 911 and dumping the body alone for 2 minutes until the EMT gets there is a helluva lot better than not doing anything at all and letting them die.

I made it very clear also, that you should only dump the body in a safe place. If you called the EMT, then they should be picking htem up in like 2 minutes, so what's the big deal? Yes, you should stay with the body, be a nice person, but in all honesty, there is nothing you can do. The only reason staying with the body would help is if you're in a real sketch place in town, and I made it clear that if the place is unsafe, don't leave the body alone.

Great, if you'd stay around that's awesome. I recommended that you stay with the body in the FAQ. I only said that if you really feel you must leave, you can do so. Obviously, people aren't going to say "Well the FAQ said I could leave so I'll leave, even though I'd rather stay!". The FAQ simply says if, for whatever reason, you can't stay, then go, just make sure they are safe where they are for the few minutes it takes the EMT to get there.

The priority is to call 911, plain and simple.

A few people are making it out like I say "DITCH THE BODY" and that's simply not true. This is not the finished version of the FAQ by the way, and I did address this in the final version which is posted in the OD Guides and DRUG FAQS forum.
 
first of all PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG OR DELETE MY POST but I think its important enough to say that I'm gonna take the chance because I think I am right. I'm really frustrated that I have only seen one person say do the BREATHING PART of cpr. If you are able to stick with the person... DO NOT do the compression part of cpr, but tilting their head back closing their nose and breathing for them can extend their life. A heroin overdose almost never causes cardiac arrest (right?). In other words the heart is usually still beating but their respiratory system cant keep up. So breath for them until the ambulance arrives. Is this not a perfectly legitamet thing to do? I have been told this by drug couselers and paramedics, am studying to be an EMT and can't believe anything would be wrong with this or that it would be difficult to perform for the untrained. If you can kiss someone you can breath for them. Not that you would want to kiss the person overdosing but you smell the shit im steppin in. Bad joke. Someone that KNOWS please respond because if I am wrong I have to call all the people I've told this to and correct my shit. Peace and be safe damnit. -Spaz-
 
Spaazkaz said:
first of all PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG OR DELETE MY POST but I think its important enough to say that I'm gonna take the chance because I think I am right. I'm really frustrated that I have only seen one person say do the BREATHING PART of cpr. If you are able to stick with the person... DO NOT do the compression part of cpr, but tilting their head back closing their nose and breathing for them can extend their life. A heroin overdose almost never causes cardiac arrest (right?). In other words the heart is usually still beating but their respiratory system cant keep up. So breath for them until the ambulance arrives. Is this not a perfectly legitamet thing to do? I have been told this by drug couselers and paramedics, am studying to be an EMT and can't believe anything would be wrong with this or that it would be difficult to perform for the untrained. If you can kiss someone you can breath for them. Not that you would want to kiss the person overdosing but you smell the shit im steppin in. Bad joke. Someone that KNOWS please respond because if I am wrong I have to call all the people I've told this to and correct my shit. Peace and be safe damnit. -Spaz-


You are correct on both points--respiratory arrest comes before cardiac arrest.
 
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