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5HTP vs L-Tryptophan

So what does this mean? You do get 5HT produce outside your brain and if the dose was higher you would get it in the blood, hence the risk of heart problems is real?
 
I would say that for a single dose, the effect on the heart would be minimal. Perhaps if you were taking 5-HTP everyday, it might be something to worry about.
 
For what it is worth, I have found websites now selling L-Tryptophan OTC, and labeling it for human consumption (as compared to the veterinary related stuff that is also available).
 
I buy 1Kg of bulk USP L-tryptophan every few years for a few hundred dollars.


X
 
magnesium as mentioned above is good, so is l-theanine and l-taurine which act as NMDA antagonists/blockers thus combating MDMA-induced neurotxicity and tolerance build-up. Many NMDA blockers have also been implicated in sparing effects upon 5-ht and serotonin when concominantly administered with MDMA and other alike substances.
 
I was not aware either l-theanine or l-taurine were NMDA antagonists. I've had a quick search around, but found nothing conclusive. Any references?
 
Brain Res. 1978 Jul 28;151(1):215-9.

Theanine as a glutamate antagonist at a crayfish neuromuscular junction.

Shinozaki H, Ishida M.
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Toxicol Lett. 2001 Apr 30;121(2):89-96.

Inhibition of glutamate transporter by theanine enhances the therapeutic efficacy of doxorubicin.

Sugiyama T, Sadzuka Y, Tanaka K, Sonobe T.
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Biol Pharm Bull. 2002 Dec;25(12):1513-8.

Neuroprotective effects of the green tea components theanine and catechins.

Kakuda T.

Theanine is more efficient in blocking activation of AMPA/Kainate in glutamate receptors but also to a lessr degree blocks NMDA.
 
Biosci Biotechnol Biochem. 2002 Dec;66(12):2683-6.


Inhibition by theanine of binding of [3H]AMPA, [3H]kainate, and [3H]MDL 105,519 to glutamate receptors.

Kakuda T, Nozawa A, Sugimoto A, Niino H.
 
There isn't much good evidence that MDMA neurotoxicty is blocked by NMDA antagonists anyways... But there is some evidence that theanine binds very weakly to ionotropic glutamate receptors, but probably so weakly it doesn't matter
 
JF Stover and AW Unterberg
Increased cerebrospinal fluid glutamate and taurine concentrations are associated with traumatic brain edema formation in rats.
Brain Res, September 1, 2000; 875(1-2): 51-5.
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N Menendez, O Herreras, JM Solis, AS Herranz, and R Martin del Rio
Extracellular taurine increase in rat hippocampus evoked by specific glutamate receptor activation is related to the excitatory potency of glutamate agonists.
Neurosci Lett, July 17, 1989; 102(1): 64-9.
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SS Oja and P Saransaari
Modulation of taurine release by glutamate receptors and nitric oxide.
Prog Neurobiol, November 1, 2000; 62(4): 407-25.
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A Dahchour and P De Witte
Taurine blocks the glutamate increase in the nucleus accumbens microdialysate of ethanol-dependent rats.
Pharmacol Biochem Behav, Feb 2000; 65(2): 345-50.


Endogenous taurine acts as a negative feedback loop upon most of the excitoxic actions at glutmate receptors; supplementing with exo-taurine makes good sense therefore
 
BilZ0r said:
There isn't much good evidence that MDMA neurotoxicty is blocked by NMDA antagonists anyways... But there is some evidence that theanine binds very weakly to ionotropic glutamate receptors, but probably so weakly it doesn't matter
Click to expand...

There isn't much evidence at all as far as how and what produces the 'alleged' MDMA neurotoxicity - just exploring possible pathways..
 
I would say that the likelyhood that MDMA "neurotoxicity" is NDMA-receptor mediated is extremely unlikely. Significant excitotoxic insult results in actual neuronal destruction, not just "pruning" of the axons.


X
 
Yeah, but that actaul binding paper junglelove, shows that theanine has a Ki for the NMDA receptor of 300µM, there no way you're gonna get that kinda concentration in the brain from recreational use.
 
Adam X said:
I would say that the likelyhood that MDMA "neurotoxicity" is NDMA-receptor mediated is extremely unlikely. Significant excitotoxic insult results in actual neuronal destruction, not just "pruning" of the axons.


X
Click to expand...

I agree, though there is a larger question as to what effect NMDA antagonists have on methamphetamine/amphetamine. People report that they don't need to dose escalate when taking dexamphetamine and DXM concommitantly.
 
I would wager that the same thing occurs when taking an SSRI like Prozac. DXM is also an SSRI. I would assume that post-synaptic serotonin levels probably mediate tolerance to dopamine increasing drugs by maintaining a homeostatic ratio of dopamine to serotonin. Even small increases in serotonin would likely have some effect on development of tolerance. I noticed that daily L-tryptophan also prevents tolerance to dextroamphetamine, and when some tolerance eventually does occur taking a break from Dexedrine and supplementing with high (2-3g/day) levels of L-tryptophan bring tolerance down to baseline within 21 days.


X
 
That's extremely interesting, I've never heard anything like that before (re dopamine-serotonin ratio). You're implying that tolerance isn't just due to some period of neurotransmitter excess but stems from an imbalance in the neurotransmitter ratio, which in theory could be altered by the appropriate drug from the opposite class?

Do you think this applies equally well to the noradrenic and cholinergic systems?

Do you have any references which might support this notion?
 
has anybody proven that DXM is an SSRI? i had that suspicion, i always feel happy after taking cough medicine :)
 
DXM does indeed have serotonin-reuptake inhibiting properties. I found a whole bunch of references on this earlier I think...
 
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