3 Tramadol a day or 12 Kratom. Which is a higher habit?

[Shant]

Went from a 25 year run (heroin to methadone to fentanyl) to nothing but 3 Tramadol a day in roughly 3 weeks. The transition was downright violent, acute depression being the only real symptom that remains at this point. Mild anxiety as well, always on edge. Snapping at my family, pacing until I have holes in my socks, not taking showers, etc…

I was stuck at 3 Tramadol a day (50mg) for about 2 months. Couldn’t walk off for the life of me, which was a bit shocking. Switched to Kratom caps (red Bali or something), appx 12 a day. It’s surprisingly holding me along with the gabapentin (2400mg a day).

Which would you say is the lesser habit? 3 trams a day or the Kratom? Appreciate the help, as always.

 

[Antares]

I don't know the answer to this no matter what, but I think people are gonna need the dose of your kratom capsules to give a good answer.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

I would highly advise against trying to maintain with kratom long term. Tolerance develops more quickly. It's less predictable. Kratom has a lot of potential to become even worse of an addiction than 150mg tramadol.

I would use it to quit, but not long term.

 

[Shant]

I don't know the answer to this no matter what, but I think people are gonna need the dose of your kratom capsules to give a good answer.

Ok, each capsule has 3/4 gram of kratom in it. Only other thing it says is Mitragyna Speciosa: 500mg per cap.

The Tramadol is 150-200mg per day. Appreciate that, shoulda listed the kratom stats up front.

 

[Cbk1013]

Do what gives you better relief and always try to stay in taper mode...Your a BOSS!

 

[Shant]

I would highly advise against trying to maintain with kratom long term. Tolerance develops more quickly. It's less predictable. Kratom has a lot of potential to become even worse of an addiction than 150mg tramadol.

I would use it to quit, but not long term.

I see. Well my plan is absolutely not long term. I dropped from 12 Tramadol to 3 Tramadol very quickly. I got off Frntanyl successfully using Tramadol, it was surprisingly effective. 12 tramadol a day killed 90% of the withdrawal symptoms from stoping fentanyl without tapering.

But going from 3 to 0 is MUCH harder than going from 12 to 3. This is a very small habit, I can’t understand why body needs it so bad. Heart rate spikes, heart beats extra hard, I start pacing, etc…1 Tramadol utterly kills it, for 8-10 hours. My mom takes more Tramadol than me but she could skip a day. Makes no sense. I’ve walked off 20mg of methadone without to much trouble.

I wanna be off Kratom in 2 weeks, 3 at most.

 

[Shant]

Do what gives you better relief and always try to stay in taper mode...You’re a BOSS!

Thanks man I appreciate it. Can’t believe I’m this close…don’t wanna blow it. The Tramadol absolutely gives me more relief. I can barely notice the effects of Kratom.it kills most of the withdrawal but not all, like Tramadol.

But doesn’t that mean kratoms a better choice? If it doesn’t kill withdrawal as well as Tramadol, no euphoria to speak of, doesn’t that mean it’s weaker and therefore easier to beat?

 

[Shant]

Hmmm…this may be a red flag. I just realized that I’m far more constipated on Kratom than I was on Tramadol. Is that an indicator that I stepped it up by mistake? Sheesh…

 

[Cbk1013]

I honestly don't know sounds like you have come a long way...just keep doing what your doing and stay in taper mode and add AA program of recovery and just notice how you feel when your in the rooms...I think its a game changer if you don't over think it and just keep coming back and don't worry about doing it perfect just keep coming back is the only requirement for life IMO...never stop we are never gonna put our addictions to rest but we can tame them one day at a time... I've been to 9 meetings in the last 3 days and I've been in and out of the rooms several times but now and for the rest of my life I stick N stay and keep the taper on until totally off and we don't need to race off either ...just my 2 cents for today always subject to change but thats where I"m at today

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Hmmm…this may be a red flag. I just realized that I’m far more constipated on Kratom than I was on Tramadol. Is that an indicator that I stepped it up by mistake? Sheesh…

It has that effect on some people. Personally it makes me quite regular.

 

[daturetard]

Kratom would be better long term as it's less "dirty" in my opinion. The SNRI properties in my opinion make tram gross IMO and you might get brain zaps coming off of them/aka antidepressant withdrawal, which as crazy as it seems is worse than opioid withdrawals.

 

[JB888]

first off congrats on breaking a habit like that but yeah def go with kratom over tramadol. Tramadol sucks unless u have 0 tolerance plus it has psych drug effects too and it can make u have a seizure.. Tramadol is a shitty drug IME. IDK why these ppl trippin on u tho homie, kratom is like a miracle drug to opiate dependent ppl like better than being on MAT drugs. Kratom is the way to go.

 

[Shant]

Thank you, and guess what? I”m quite convinced I indeed had a seizure on tramadol. About 20 years ago. I only took 350mg, but all at once. I went to see Spider-Man 3. I remember every bit of the movie up until a precise point, then I”m waking up in an ambulance. I was certain I was lucid dreaming. Something many don’t know about an ambulance ride…they shake like crazy. Like King Kong”s trying to get in….especially during stops & starts. I figured it was Dr Octopus & I must be Spider-Man. So I began taking the IVs & wires out of my arm. EMTs tried reason, then force, I told them to release me or we’d all die. They realized what was going on & laughed so I resorted to insults. Told one guy he used a 4 syllable word, he’s smarter than he looks. I guess somehow that actually hurt his feelings (so I guess it worked!) & he said “Fuck you ass hole,” I finally figured it out.

That had to be a seizure, right? I was told I screamed right before I crashed. If it was an OD I don’t see screaming. Plus I didn’t feel fucked up at all…

 

[Shant]

Kratom would be better long term as it's less "dirty" in my opinion. The SNRI properties in my opinion make tram gross IMO and you might get brain zaps coming off of them/aka antidepressant withdrawal, which as crazy as it seems is worse than opioid withdrawals.

Even on lower doses like mine? The SNRI properties I mean. I do have to say, in defense of tramadol, that shit saved my ass when I stopped fentanyl cold turkey. 10 or 12 of those things killed no less than 80% of the withdrawal symptoms.. And was easy to taper down to a few in short order. I’m talking roughly 1 week. It reminded me of how effective darvocet used to be for coming off of OxyContin. The good old days…

 

[Shant]

Good news is I dropped from 12 caps to 6 in one day & felt essentially the same. Seems Kratom is easier to come off than tramadol. Even if we’re talking equivalent dosages, I mean.

I’m so close I can taste it. It will be the first time I will have had zero narcotics in my body in some 25 years. Blows me away though that I’ve basically been clean for 3 months & I’m still miserable, still craving fentanyl every second of the day. We’re not talking about methadone, fentanyl has a fraction of the half life. I don’t understand the extended torment…I realize now how foolish I was to expect that as soon as the physical withdrawal symptoms were gone. This will take longer than I dreamed…

 

[coffeeshroom2.0]

As all has asked what is the Kratom dose. By me a cap is 500mg so you are doing 6g Kratom vs 150mg tramadol and for me personally ally I would go the tramadol route and add gagapentin as needed but also cycle the gabapentin

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Hmmm…this may be a red flag. I just realized that I’m far more constipated on Kratom than I was on Tramadol. Is that an indicator that I stepped it up by mistake? Sheesh…

Probably not.

All that plant fiber from the kratom has the ability to cause constipation on it's own.



Tramadol is a weak partial agonist with an active full agonist metabolite.
Kratom is a weak partial agonist with inactive metabolite. It's full of active antagonists too that can block any perceived opioid-effect. It also contains dopamine blockers, similar to an antipsychotic.

So technically tramadol is world's apart more potent than kratom. O-desmethyltramadol (the metabolite of tramadol) is actually a pretty decent moderate-strength opioid. But this can be affected by your liver enzymes too.

I was addicted to tramadol for nearly 11 years. And kratom has nothing on tramadol IMO. They don't feel anything alike to me either (I hate when people say kratom & tramadol are so similar, when they're really not). Kratom has never been able to satisfy me for some reason. It makes me drowsy & constipated, but not in an "opiate-like" way. It can be okay if you take the extracts but whatever I do feel is incredibly short acting (like less than an hour & not even that pleasurable to begin with), where as tramadol lasts me most of the day.


Ultimately it's up to you which one works with your body better. If you're trying to quit narcotics, then maybe stick with the kratom.

 

[daturetard]

Even on lower doses like mine? The SNRI properties I mean. I do have to say, in defense of tramadol, that shit saved my ass when I stopped fentanyl cold turkey. 10 or 12 of those things killed no less than 80% of the withdrawal symptoms.. And was easy to taper down to a few in short order. I’m talking roughly 1 week. It reminded me of how effective darvocet used to be for coming off of OxyContin. The good old days…

I'm not certain how bad 150 mgs of tramadol would be in terms of snri qualities. I'd say it's probably equivalent to 50 mgs of effexor in terms of snri, which can/will (depending on long term or not) produce wds, that added to opioid wd makes it really scary and I would stay away from trams personally unless it's "potentiating" (adding to) another opis effects. Kratom gives you a stomach ache and that's about it for issues.

 

[Keif' Richards]

It would be extremely difficult for us to give you a useful answer on this one. Specifically, the Kratom is what makes it all so dubious. It's dried plant matter, not to mention it's essentially unregulated in any way. Just like Poppies or Cannabis, the actual potency is going to be determined by the proportion of active substances, in this case Mitragynine(s) relative to the rest of the bulk. As Kratom is uncontrolled, the potency is going to vary pretty widely.

Even if we did know the potency of the capsules you have, as in how much Mitragynine(s) they contain, we do not have a very good understanding of Mitragynine to begin with. It's been used in traditional medicine in its home regions for a long time, yes, but Western Medicine has yet to study it to the extent that we would like.

What you get in the end is that you are actually the authority on this. The way you react to the different drugs/dosages, how does the Kratom moderate your withdrawal/dependence? The easiest way to find the closest approximation you'll be able to get, would be to see how much Kratom is required for you to be well, but not sedated. This will at least give you a ballpark estimate. However, this can all change with a new batch, new cultivar etc.

If you had to pick one or the other, I would avoid Tramadol. It's a drug that seems to cause a lot of problems. Considering there are plenty of other options out there for Opioids of similar strength and effects, it seems unnecessary for Tramadol to even be prescribed. As you've said in this thread, seizure risk goes up immensely when dosage of 300mg Tramadol or more is taken in a sitting. Again, considering Opioids are so prone to tolerance, dependence and abuse, it seems like asking for trouble when the seizure threshold is crossed with such a low dosage. Addicts often make bad decisions, and I can totally see an addict contuing to take Tramadol, have seizures and still not be able to stop taking it. We see worse things in Harm Reduction.

So if I were you, I would stick to the Kratom and forget the Tramadol. This is especially so considering you yourself have had a seizure already. Figure out what dosage of Kratom you need, try to find a legitimate supplier and establish a stable means of acquiring it. Once you find a variety that works for you, you can order in larger quantities to both save money and give you more security.

 

[Shant]

Probably not.

All that plant fiber from the kratom has the ability to cause constipation on it's own.



Tramadol is a weak partial agonist with an active full agonist metabolite.
Kratom is a weak partial agonist with inactive metabolite. It's full of active antagonists too that can block any perceived opioid-effect. It also contains dopamine blockers, similar to an antipsychotic.

So technically tramadol is world's apart more potent than kratom. O-desmethyltramadol (the metabolite of tramadol) is actually a pretty decent moderate-strength opioid. But this can be affected by your liver enzymes too.

I was addicted to tramadol for nearly 11 years. And kratom has nothing on tramadol IMO. They don't feel anything alike to me either (I hate when people say kratom & tramadol are so similar, when they're really not). Kratom has never been able to satisfy me for some reason. It makes me drowsy & constipated, but not in an "opiate-like" way. It can be okay if you take the extracts but whatever I do feel is incredibly short acting (like less than an hour & not even that pleasurable to begin with), where as tramadol lasts me most of the day.


Ultimately it's up to you which one works with your body better. If you're trying to quit narcotics, then maybe stick with the kratom.

Yeah no question tramadol is more potent, so you just take more kratom until it kills withdrawal equally. No question Tramadol lasts longer. A good 10 hours. But it also takes much longer to kick in. In terms of a buzz or euphoria, there’s no distinction for me because I can’t feel a damn thing from either. They literally just kill the anxiety from withdrawal.

Something I noticed though, yesterday, after taking 3 caps(and 1200mg gabapentin) I actually took a nap during the day. Coming off fentanyl I hardly sleep. Certainly can’t take naps during the day. Never once on Tramadol have I nodded, so that came as a shock. But it was a very icky uncomfortable nap. Don’t know if it was a negative or positive…