1st time methadone use

[anonbob]

Hi there, I have read the megathread but it doesn't really answer my question. Cannot select thread prefix on mobile so I could not post in other drugs section. I've developed a dependancy on opiates, namely tramadol, if have 400-600mg per day. Without it, in the mornings I'd wake up suffering horrible withdrawals and wouldn't be able to function. I know 400mg + is not advised too due to seizure risk but luckily I'm evidently not prone to seizures, not to say it won't happen. I then went to oxy codone which to be honest was never that fantastic as tramadol used to be, even at 80mg. Or maybe by crushing them in my teeth I was not defeating the prolonged release sufficiently. I guess my tolerance was too high so I'd need 100mg + to match 400-600mg tramadol. Anyway, oxy is far too expensive, I have thousands in the bank but I could see myself blowing too much money each week on drugs, and I wanted an alternative and to control the problem before it got out of hand. Never considered IV, and I never will.
Bought 100x 5mg methadone and researched on here on its potency and the risks, this forum has been a great help to me, thank you. Started off yesterday on only 2.5 mg, felt nothing so had the remainder 2.5mg 4 hours later. This was enough to prevent 95% withdrawals for 24 hours or so, I had a few tramadol in between because it took a while to kick in. Today I've upped it to 5mg, 5mg 4 hours later and I think I feel better right now but still not particularly positive and definitely not high. Would I be right in saying I'm approaching the threshold of my tolerance I.e enough to stop withdrawals and that tomorrow if I took 10mg, then another 10mg 4 hours later I would expect to feel some high, well being warmth etc? I think I'm being safe in dosage and would like to see the potential recreational value of this, whilst also (or otherwise) using it to slowly taper off opiates.
So my question is, I've had total 10mg today but don't quite feel any positivity, yet any withdrawals are at bay. So if I were to exceed this tomorrow am I going into recreational/high territory? Ok not going to lie and say I don't want to experience this but I genuinely see this as a cheaper and due to the half life, eggective drug to taper me off opiates. I realise that to some, 10mg is nothing, so I'm not too bad. But also to an opiate naive person 10mg might put them on their ass, or worse. I am impressed that such a small dosage is able to counter 400mg-600mg tramadol dependency, does anybody have any advice on what I'm doing ? Would it be safe to try another 5mg this evening, if after another 4 hour period I do not feel any effects/high?

Any advice is appreciated. Thank you

 

[MDPV_Psychosis]

If your plan is to taper off using the methadone then you probably shouldn't increase your dosage tomorrow. It sounds like today you found an adequate dose to alleviate withdrawals... If you start taking more to achieve a high then you are working backwards. You'll increase your tolerance and start associating methadone with a high... That won't help your cause.

Just my 2 cents. Your tolerance is low enough that you could EASILY use a small portion if those 100 pills to taper off completely. But if you start chasing a high you have enough pills to dig the grave you've already started digging even deeper.

You said you want to find the rec value first, then start tapering. I understand where you are coming from and I would have a hard time not doing the same.

You took 5mg today twice and felt fine. 10mg twice tomorrow would most likely get you some type of high then. If your set on taking more tomorrow then maybe try 7.5mg twice instead of 10?

Be safe. The longer you take methadone for the harder and longer the withdrawals from it will be. Since you just switched, a fast taper would be the most painless way to go.

 

[MDPV_Psychosis]

Sorry I can't edit, so apologies for double posting.

I meant to say the most painless/best way to taper would probably be to stabilize on as low of a dose as possible for a few days (low enough to keep you out of severe withdrawals and less than enough to get you any sort of high) and then quickly taper.

Getting off methadone will be much easier now then it will be if you continue to use it for a longer period of time.

Good luck

 

[anonbob]

Thanks for your response dude. I understand and agree with what you're saying. The 10mg I've totalled today isn't quite enough I think as I still don't quite feel 100%, I took 200mg tramadol afterwards and felt better pretty quickly. As you imply, I don't want to find myself in a weeks time with a 20mg tolerance. I've only taken methadone for two days so I'm not addicted to that as you understand, it's the tramadol actually so using methadone as a substitute because it's cheaper and safer than continuing with 400-600mg tramadol and it's more effective. I'm going to try 7.5 x2 tomorrow and then maybe 10 x 2 the day after depending on how it goes. Forgive me if this sounds utterly delusional as an "addict" - I can't believe I'm referring to myself as an addict. But I guess it's true... but is it possible, as part of tapering off to like, instead of getting high EVERY DAY, reduce it to every other day, using only maintenance dosages in between actually getting high, then maybe every 3 days etc and meanwhile lowering maintenance dosages very slowly each week. Does that sound realistic to you? Because I feel that whilst using a maintenance dose every day, yes it's stopping withdrawals but I feel utterly bored and numb, which I understand is part of the point and means it's working but I feel like doing as I have just described, I.e getting high but increasingly less often would be more effective because knowing that I would get a small high every other day (to begin with), then every 2-3 days; it would make it easier to deal with that numb zombie depressed feeling. Or maybe that's because I haven't quite reached what is my correct dosage yet? Or am I just making excuses to myself lol. Either way it must be better than 1, getting high every single day, and 2, increasing my tolerance further. If I can avoid those two things then I feel I would be potentially going in the right direction? All be it slower.

Thanks for your advise this far. Do you really think my dependency now is relatively low and easy to taper off? That's good to know because when I realised I had become dependant I was on holiday, I'd only brought a few pills with me as I didn't want to risk getting caught with class b prescription drugs. I ran out, started feeling what are probably only minor withdrawals and had to book a flight home early. In the 2 days it took me to get home I already started to feel normal again. And I could have probably stopped. But the first thing I did was take more to feel relieved again. Even though I could have quite easily not. And that was when 200mg would be enough and I wouldn't think about having more than 400. So basically at that point the dependency was so low that I could actually tolerate the withdrawals for a few days and then be find. However now I definitely could not. I Feel majorly depressed, can't eat or function - I'm sure I don't need to tell you what it's like. Waking up is the worst thing, I even dream about negative shit. So I can't imagine how worse the withdrawals could be. A few other times I made the mistake of running out of tramadol before buying more and I nearly got myself into trouble. Now with this methadone Ive still got 96 pills left and would buy 100 more long before I ran out

How long could I expect it to take to come off opiates completely by tapering off?

Thanks

 

[opiatekrzy]

A very very long time to come off using methadone, most importantly you would be substituting one opiate for the other

 

[kleinerkiffer]

Tramadol is around 0.1 times as potent as morphine, while racemic is around 2-3 times as potent as morphine. So 0.1 * 600 mg = an equivalent to around 60mg morphine
60 mg morphine / 3 = 20mg methadone
And for 400mg tramadol 40/3 = 13 mg methadone
But don't forget that they are not completely cross tolerant, so the numbers are too high and just reference points, not a dosage advice.
So if 10mg methadone holds you that's good and imo you shouldn't take more and taper asap

And don't forget that tramadol acts as a SNRI, so you may feel SNRI withdrawal as well and taking more methadone won't get rid of this, so you should try and differenciate between opioid and SNRI withdrawal

 

[anonbob]

Thanks again guys.

I've been increasing the dose slightly to determine what's enough to make me feel normal. This seems to be around 10-15 mg per day. However I can tell you I have not been "high" now for about 5-7 days, basically since I started taking methadone. I'm beginning to wonder if it can even make you high but I know it's s proper opiate sand agonist. The fact I haven't been high must surely be a good thing?
Yes the SSRI withdrawal is a good point. I noticed that although the withdrawals were gone, I still did not feel positive. This was probably a combo of being on too lower dose and the lack of SSRI maybe. I've had a few tramadol but really hardly anything compared to what I used to have. I've still got over 80 pills left and soon I'm going to start trying taper off them, plus I will try buy more just to be on the safe side. I noticed that at certain times during the day I felt normal. Very bored but also normal as if I'm not on any drug at all, no high and no withdrawals. And I know that the only way to get high would be to buy a load of oxy which isn't worth the money and the short duration of the high, or take a much larger dose of methadone maybe which I don't feel the need to do, if it even works like that. Even having 10mg of methadone at once I've never felt high at all, I can feel under the influence of something but nothing like a good opiate high. Nor do I feel I've taken too much of it or come close to ODing. I'm still not going to exceed 15mg at a time though. Worst time to suffer withdrawals, even minor is when skeeping. It really makes me face horrible dreams. And I try to avoid that, because as you know methadone takes a while to kick in so once I'm at that stage I just have to suffer it for an hour or two until it kicks in.

It was said that it would take a "very very long time" for me to taper off methadone, so how many months are we talking ?
Taking 2x 5mg per day was doable, but 2x 10mg made me feel normal. The fact that I'm not even getting high anymore must mean I'm not going backwards right?
How about SSRI withdrawal, that's not as bad right? I could get citalopram but it doesn't seem to be a big issue right now, 200mg tramadol seems to keep this at bay and it's an imporovement on 600mg. To be honest I might not even need that anymore.

Please let me know how long I should try taper for, thanks.

 

[Keif' Richards]

You should be administering that Methadone rectally my friend. Methadone is practically in a class all its own in terms of commonly prescribed full agonist Opioids. Medicine and/or science has come to the conclusion that the drugs with the faster, more intense effects are ultimately the more desirable or recreational. Methadone violates this rule by requiring 3-6 times as long to onset than other common Opioids like for instance, Oxycodone. This leads many to imply that Methadone lacks euphoria and isn't recreational. I would agree with this, but you can easily beat Methadone's innate extended release mechanism by changing your ROA.

Instead of a 2-3 hour time to onset, you can have it in 15 and be nearing your peak around 1 - 1.5 hours. People doubt me, but I don't just post this shit for fun. It's the real deal from a real Opioid connoisseur who spent literally years looking for how to make Methadone a better experience. Along the way I injected it several times, stupidly, by inserting a venous catheter in my bathroom and using 60ml luer lock syringes. Sadly, it cost me a couple of good veins and there isn't any advantage whatsoever over rectal administration.

For everyone who can't administer drugs rectally due being grossed out or homophobic, get better acquainted with your body! The body is either infinitely beautiful or endlessly disgusting depending on the view you choose to take. In the grand scheme of things, squirting a small amount of liquid into your rectum will not change your life forever or make you doubt your validity as a straight male. I usually start the shower, lay down on the floor, take my 15 minutes of stillness, then shower, get dressed again and it's all over within 20 minutes.

As far as your taper is concerned, it really shouldn't take a "long, long time", although it's a pretty subjective experience. Even if you decided to go very slow and reduced by 1mg per week, you would still be done within 2.5 months and I would doubt that you would experience any withdrawal symptoms by going at that rate.

 

[anonbob]

Hi Kief, thank you

Rectal ROA isn't new to me, but what's the bioavailability going to be compared to oral ? Because if it's multiplied a lot then I need to know to lower my dosage. ! I assume I simply dissolve the pill in a small amount of water, and the rest I know! I would never consider IV, I hate injections! Only reason I'd consider rectsl is to use my pills more efficiently as I've got around 70 left and without describing my source which I believe is against the rules, it takes me a week to get more and the vendor is currently on vacation. The ones I have should last a while and I should be able to get more in time but I need to be cautious until I have a new order on the way, it's not guaranteed. and this time I'll get 100x 10mg which will last much longer for tapering. Thanks again, if you could give me further info on the rectal ROA then I may give it a try tomorrow will 5mg, I doubt I'd use it exclusively though as the long half life is the whole point of the tapering.

Thanks

 

[Keif' Richards]

^In response to your last post: Methadone's oral bioavailability is noted to be potentially varied, with it sometimes being absorbed at a rate as low as ~%40% and sometimes as high as ~99%, but typically, it's assumed to be around ~80% - ~90% in most individuals with normal metabolism and no drug interactions. Part of what made Methadone a suitable treatment in the first place was the fact that it had a relatively efficient oral bioavailability, especially when compared to the mainstays of the class, Morphine and Heroin.

So, given this, you really shouldn't need to adjust your dosage at all. Given the math we've done, to err on the side of caution, you could reduce by 10% or so. In my experience the rectal route does not take away significantly from the duration of effects. I'm sure they are shortened somewhat in due to the increased onset time, but as someone who took Methadone everyday on a schedule, it never effected me in a way that caused me to require a dosage adjustment. But, even given the bioavailability difference, I always found the experience of rectal Methadone to be more potent. This could help you reduce the amount that you're using.

Try it out and report back to us please! I think people have formed an idea about old Keif' that he just likes to insert foreign material into his rectum. I assure you that this is (at least partially) untrue. It's a highly effective route of administration for many drugs, but some in my opinion, like Methadone, were meant for the route.

 

[anonbob]

My only concern is, I've read on here that plugging will definitely turn you into a proper gay. Even only once

 

[anonbob]

I've not really increased my dose/tolerance but I've never been able to get any high, even plugging 4x 5mg. Perhaps it's not enough ?

 

[Lorne???]

I've not really increased my dose/tolerance but I've never been able to get any high, even plugging 4x 5mg. Perhaps it's not enough ?

DO NOT PLUG METHADONE. It has a slower onset, and a less reliable BA, which is slightly lower, IIRC.

White grapefruit juice is the best OTC inhibitor, along with cimetidine.

Oral methadone with P450 inhibitors are the best way to go. It makes the methadone more potent,(sometimes more quickly) and it can, double the the T1/2.

I've posted plenty on the subject, but would give specifics if you are interested.

But, rectal being faster is mostly a myth. Some drugs/medications are absorbed faster(diamorphine, due to very high solubility, is absorbed slightly faster) but most are actually absorbed MORE SLOWLY.

Rectal is basically like sublingual administration, but less consistent(often, and if done not done properly) but, as a trade-off, it often gives a longer a half-life, and a longer duration( typically a slight to moderate increase, AFAIK)

Anyway, forget plugging, and other things can increase potency(P450. Especially 3A4 inhibitors, and other tricks are around

 

[anonbob]

Methadone has just never given me any high, even taking 4x 5mg. Nothing does anymore. And I will never do heroin etc. Oxycodone does fuck all. Methadone is so strong and cheap yet I can't get any recreational value out of it. I won't inject anything. Only idea is to try like 8x 5mg. As 4 does nothing. Any ideas ?

 

[Spideronthewall]

You should be administering that Methadone rectally my friend. Methadone is practically in a class all its own in terms of commonly prescribed full agonist Opioids. Medicine and/or science has come to the conclusion that the drugs with the faster, more intense effects are ultimately the more desirable or recreational. Methadone violates this rule by requiring 3-6 times as long to onset than other common Opioids like for instance, Oxycodone. This leads many to imply that Methadone lacks euphoria and isn't recreational. I would agree with this, but you can easily beat Methadone's innate extended release mechanism by changing your ROA.

Instead of a 2-3 hour time to onset, you can have it in 15 and be nearing your peak around 1 - 1.5 hours. People doubt me, but I don't just post this shit for fun. It's the real deal from a real Opioid connoisseur who spent literally years looking for how to make Methadone a better experience. Along the way I injected it several times, stupidly, by inserting a venous catheter in my bathroom and using 60ml luer lock syringes. Sadly, it cost me a couple of good veins and there isn't any advantage whatsoever over rectal administration.

For everyone who can't administer drugs rectally due being grossed out or homophobic, get better acquainted with your body! The body is either infinitely beautiful or endlessly disgusting depending on the view you choose to take. In the grand scheme of things, squirting a small amount of liquid into your rectum will not change your life forever or make you doubt your validity as a straight male. I usually start the shower, lay down on the floor, take my 15 minutes of stillness, then shower, get dressed again and it's all over within 20 minutes.

As far as your taper is concerned, it really shouldn't take a "long, long time", although it's a pretty subjective experience. Even if you decided to go very slow and reduced by 1mg per week, you would still be done within 2.5 months and I would doubt that you would experience any withdrawal symptoms by going at that rate.

Hey Kief' Would you say Plugging 65ML of Tang-mixed-methadone (95mg) is safe?? Im trying to get a slight potency increase once a week of my 'Done now that im mid-taper. Just wondering about the tang.
I've dont the IV of the oral solution, stay away from, IV unless you have tablets to etract from LOL

 

[Keif' Richards]

DO NOT PLUG METHADONE. It has a slower onset, and a less reliable BA, which is slightly lower, IIRC.

White grapefruit juice is the best OTC inhibitor, along with cimetidine.

Oral methadone with P450 inhibitors are the best way to go. It makes the methadone more potent,(sometimes more quickly) and it can, double the the T1/2.

I've posted plenty on the subject, but would give specifics if you are interested.

But, rectal being faster is mostly a myth. Some drugs/medications are absorbed faster(diamorphine, due to very high solubility, is absorbed slightly faster) but most are actually absorbed MORE SLOWLY.

Rectal is basically like sublingual administration, but less consistent(often, and if done not done properly) but, as a trade-off, it often gives a longer a half-life, and a longer duration( typically a slight to moderate increase, AFAIK)

Anyway, forget plugging, and other things can increase potency(P450. Especially 3A4 inhibitors, and other tricks are around

Sorry, Lorne, but you're mistaken. I mean no disrespect. Please be careful in going out of your way to tell people they're wrong. I would definitely make sure that you have correct information first to avoid this in the future. Methadone indeed has a much, much faster onset by the rectal route and I can't find a single article anywhere implying that it has a slower onset.

Also, the cytochrome inhibitors you mentioned don't actually potentiate. It's a common misconception though. They only interfere with the ultimate metabolism of the drug, making it last longer, but not actually increasing it's potency. Also, if you're on maintenance, don't expect taking a couple of Cimetidine (Tagamet) to make your daily dose strong enough to get you high. It's pretty common for Methadone patients to be able to consume double and triple doses without getting high. Obviously, this is extremely dangerous, but it's often how it is. I know I would routinely consume my take homes in double dosages and at most, it would make me pretty tired. It sucks, but Methadone is a pretty effective drug for managing addictions .

Here's an article to back up what I'm implying here. It's one of a few Pubmed articles espousing the potential benefits of the ROA. In the article, it's stated that rectal administration is a viable route due to its rapid absorption and relatively high bioavailability. In truth, the rectal bioavailability of Methadone is a matter of conjecture, although some claim the difference ould be as high as 10%. Even if it was the case that 10% would be lost, the 15 minute onset compared to 3-5 hours would be a welcome change for many, I'm sure.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1884589/

Actually, here's another decent articles. It's dealing with Cancer Pain, granted, but it also mentions distinctly the rapid onset of rectal Methadone.

http://annonc.oxfordjournals.org/content/6/8/841

While there seems to be some conjecture as to the actual Tmax time for rectal administration, which could actually be similar to oral administration. The main difference is that the onset is quicker, even if the time to Tmax is similar. Most importantly guys, I've lived it. I've taken Methadone hundreds of times, pluggged it and injected it. I have no reason to bullshit you. Rectal administration is worth it.


Now, onto spideronthewall. You won't actually get a potency increase, although the quicker onset can definitely be interpreted as a stronger hit. That's how it felt for me at least. If you want to get aggro, I used to crush up a couple of Diphenhydramine (Benadryl) and mix them in the solution. The antihistamines will also come on quickly and can give you the "Pavlovian" response of "I got a stronger hit".

The bioavailability difference is disputed, but widely believed to be minimal. You shouldn't need to alter your dosage at all. I think we'd appreciate you getting back to us after experimenting so we can empirically clear things up regarding this route of administration.

 

[tacodude]

You should reword the bit about injecting methadone as being worth it to stating that injecting is only worth it if it's not the oral liquid solution as that can mislead many into injecting methadone take homes, which can easily lead to infections and amputated limbs. I'm not overexaggurating either I wish I had the link to the horror photos.

 

[Keif' Richards]

^I see what you're saying. I worded that a little funny and I'm gonna change it. It could look like I'm saying that both rectal and intravenous administration are "worth it". What I was trying to say, is that I've done all of the routes so people know I'm actually familiar with all of the different ROA's and can maybe make a reasonable judgment on the topic.

Injecting Methadone is very bad, specifically the liquid that you get from the clinic, but Methadone itself is actually caustic, so it's a lose lose. I lost a large vein on my arm through 2-3 injections of liquid Methadone. So don't do it.

 

[anonbob]

Whilst you argue amongst yourselves, OP here still cannot even have a hint of a high. It has been great to manage my opiates dependency but my point was I was to experience a high from this drug every now a day again. I've not been high for so long now, months. it's saved me money and stopped me feeling withdrawals but the lack of any positivity for so long has taken its toll and I'd just like to experience a few hours of bliss and relief for one evening at least. Likevevery now and again a glass of wine helps chill people out but I rarely drink alcohol. To the person who provides me a working solution tonight I will PayPal them $10 right now if it works. Let's say I have 4x 5mg methadone, I do have diphenhydramine pills and can buy grapefruit juice. I don't want to exceed 4x 5mg because it's a waste and plugging or oral has proven no success. So whoever can give me a method right now that works, i'll do it right now and PayPal gift $10 to anyone who is successful at making me feel moderately high/happy right now in the next few hours. I will not IV. If anyone can provide me with a real solution then the beer money is yours and I will report back. Otherwise the answer is that methadone cannot get me high. I am satisfied with its use as opiate management, my dependency has not increased so that's good.

Thanks ?

 

[anonbob]

No of course I don't want any harm! I do have diazepam though. But as far as I've determined in over a month now, methadone has zero recreational value. Seems great for managing addiction though. If anyone can truly prove otherwise then please tell me ! I'll even stick a Big black dildo up my ass and I'm not even 1% gay