12 step discussion thread Voice your opinions here!

[thedawn]

are AA hypocrites too?is it just me?

ok,i will try to be brief but this actually hurts.

i learned 5 years ago when joining AA that we were supposed to look after each other
with phone calls and regular contact and whatnot.
i had a "home group"(a group you attend every week).this was my fav meeting.
this is where i made some friends.i thought.

the last two times i was there i was getting increasingl;y depressed.
it showed.
i lost weight,said dark things etc.

now,the last time i was there,3 weeks ago,i was so weak and anxious i called a woman i barely know
from the meeting and asked her if she could give me a ride(pr therapist suggestion.i normally don't ask favors).
she picked me up by my house,she said she couldn't take me home.that came as a surprise and i went through being stuck
somewhere,broke and about to break down.

i haven't been there in two weeks now.not a phone call or a text from any of these people
i thought were my friends,"bro"'s and were supposed to be there for me.
nothing.
i could have died,they wouldn't be any wiser.
is this normal?
is it just me?
do any of you think one at least could have sent a "whats up"kinda text?

i feel so alone.
i think my AA journey is over.

 

[RedLeader]

AA/NA isn't necessary for recovery. It can work as part of a recovery plan for some people, but it is NOT for everyone and contrary to what some people in the program will tell you, you can recover and be happy and successful without going to meetings. You're not going to die if you don't go to meetings. People in AA/NA aren't doing it any better than people who do other stuff to stay clean. A lot of them are still selfish, fucked-up people who are now addicted to something different and yet still outside of themselves (the program and their concepts of loyalty to it) instead of drugs/alcohol.

At the end of the day, your trust has to be in yourself. If you rely on others, eventually you'll be let down. Don't distort the positive qualities of fellowship people. See them for what they are - people who can help you from a time-to-time, but will let you down if you put too much hope in them. So with this lady, be appreciative that she took you one way, but leave it at that. Next time, perhaps get the return ride set up before you depart.

 

[thedawn]

yeah,good thoughts right there…..

 

[herbavore]

aww, thedawn, that sucks. I think one of the worst cycles that can happen from being depressed is the escalating isolation because of other people's discomfort being around it. Don't let what happened that night make you feel that there is no hope for connection--maybe those people suck but I would not give up. It's appalling that no one even offered to get you home.

 

[thedawn]

not giving up.but giving up AA for now.
i might be too fragile or something but i can't handle that kind of "not caring"
when i have invested a lot of time helping others.
i don't want "anything back".i was a sponsor for two newcomers when i had only 3 months.
i tried to do what they did and so on.
i think it was obvious i was really suffering and needed someone/something.

my bro "jeff"…i have learnt most things the hard way.i really thought he cared about me.

 

[herbavore]

Sometimes the hardest thing in the world to do is to test out the feeling of rejection. About a year before Caleb died I was really confused, depressed, anxious and needless to say the only topic on my mind ever was my fear for my son--in other words, my life. I'm sure it was exhausting for people. They sympathized but not being in the same reality themselves couldn't be there all of the time or even most of the time. I started building things up in my head about how no one really cared. I have two friends that have been my best friends for over 20 years and without ever checking it out with them directly I just started perceiving everything as a lack of caring on their parts. They didn't call me. (Did I call them? No.) They didn't just drop by. (Did I? No.) I had to dredge up the courage to let them know I was really in need of support. I acknowledged that it was probably tiresome to hear all my angst over and over but that was my reality. Turns out that I had built a lot up in my head but that there was difficulty in hearing the despair my life had become.

Probably not everyone in that group is someone you counted as a friend, but if there is one person in particular that you could reach out to and tell how you are feeling--including the feelings of rejection--I think it could be a good thing. I know you are feeling so vulnerable but sometimes we need to hold our perceptions up for a reality check. If in fact the people you thought were actually friends do not live up to that role, at least you know it wasn't just you creating myths in your head and you can move on.

 

[Jabberwocky]

ok,i will try to be brief but this actually hurts.

i learned 5 years ago when joining AA that we were supposed to look after each other
with phone calls and regular contact and whatnot.
i had a "home group"(a group you attend every week).this was my fav meeting.
this is where i made some friends.i thought.

the last two times i was there i was getting increasingl;y depressed.
it showed.
i lost weight,said dark things etc.

now,the last time i was there,3 weeks ago,i was so weak and anxious i called a woman i barely know
from the meeting and asked her if she could give me a ride(pr therapist suggestion.i normally don't ask favors).
she picked me up by my house,she said she couldn't take me home.that came as a surprise and i went through being stuck
somewhere,broke and about to break down.

i haven't been there in two weeks now.not a phone call or a text from any of these people
i thought were my friends,"bro"'s and were supposed to be there for me.
nothing.
i could have died,they wouldn't be any wiser.
is this normal?
is it just me?
do any of you think one at least could have sent a "whats up"kinda text?

i feel so alone.
i think my AA journey is over.

I gave AA a go so many times and every time I left depressed and felt my whole focus on life is all about booze which it shouldn't be. Needless to say I went back to drinking which I quite thoroughly enjoy once I finish my work etc..

 

[bagochina]

When I go to meetings I make it a point not to give out my phone number to anybody (unless they are hot of course and even then I am very hesitant) and never put my faith in others to help me when I am down. I also refuse to work the steps and have only had a sponsor once (been going to meetings on and off since I was 17, 37 now) and I couldn't deal with the constant phone calls and being accountable.

That said venting in those meetings have helped me through some tough situations in the past. Meetings and recovery are HUGE here and there are soo many different kinds of meetings and all sorts of different people. I suggest trying again? I'm going to go to a meeting tonight. Went to a nice group meditation meeting the other day. We all had these reclining rocking chairs and a couple candles in the center and you would listen to this guided meditation cd. I was sooo relaxed after leaving there.

 

[_DankOpiAmp_]

It is worse for you than doing nothing. If the group was caring and supportive it would benefit people ( happens occasionally) but usually it is just a cultist cigarette advertisement that wastes your time and gives you mental stress that make you want to get fucked up.

 

[sarcophagus.heels]

Ugh, seriously, I feel like AA did more harm than good for me. I always left a meeting feeling worse than when I went in. It's super cult-y, and given my skepic/atheist status, it was impossible to look past the incessant focus on spirituality. If they're available in your area, I would suggest seeking out a non-AA support group. It can obviously be very helpful to chat with others in the same situation as you, but AA is just an unpleasant organization. The most helpful meeting I ever regularly attended was a non-AA support meeting associated with a nearby hospital. Any chance you could seek out something similar?

 

[nuttynutskin]

AA is bullshit anyways. The success rate of people quitting the booze on their own is the same percent as people who go to AA. And as I've probably said on here before, convincing someone that they have a disease that they will always have even if they're not drinking is a great way to go about rehabilitation right?

 

[CaseFace]

Why is it that people who don't agree with AA feel the need to talk shit about it? Like you, nutty ^^ you said yourself the success rate is the same, assuming that statistic is true, AA is not detrimental and actually works for millions of people - how does that make it bullshit? By that logic, the other half of alcoholics who got sober without AA, whatever they are doing to stay sober is also bullshit.

I don't see anything in this thread but shit talking. You are all entitled to your opinions, but maybe consider sharing them in a constructive way backed up with evidence rather than just saying "I don't like this, so it's obviously bullshit".

Are there hypocrites in AA? Yes, I'm not disputing that. Is there contradictions in the antiquated literature? Sure. None of that changes the fact that the steps are actually an incredibly useful tool for changing somebodies entire outlook on life. And I know this probably doesn't hold any weight with anybody whose posted in this thread so far - but even the Dalai Lama has said that if he could no longer practice Buddhism, the next best thing would be working AA's 12 steps - and in my opinion thats fuckin' saying something. I have personally seen people totally transformed from immature, ignorant, arrogant, selfish and self centered pieces of shit - into respectable Men and Women. I myself have started to become a respectable member of society because of the changes in my outlook and thinking that I have earned through working the steps. There are many aspects of the program besides the steps that I don't agree with, so what? I don't pay attention to them, and don't pay attention to people who preach them.

@The Dawn - I'm sorry you had this experience - but one meeting is HARDLY a representation of a world wide network of meetings encompassing millions of different people, in thousands of different cities. I would suggest trying out a number of different meetings before making a judgement about the entire program.

 

[nuttynutskin]

Why is it that people who don't agree with AA feel the need to talk shit about it? Like you, nutty ^^ you said yourself the success rate is the same, assuming that statistic is true, AA is not detrimental and actually works for millions of people - how does that make it bullshit? By that logic, the other half of alcoholics who got sober without AA, whatever they are doing to stay sober is also bullshit.

Because, like I said statistically the people in AA have no better chance of becoming sober than someone else that does something better with their time than endlessly going to an organization based on convincing you you have a disease that you're powerless against, cramming faith and religion down your throat and basically dwelling on shit that would personally make me want to drink more.

I don't see anything in this thread but shit talking. You are all entitled to your opinions, but maybe consider sharing them in a constructive way backed up with evidence rather than just saying "I don't like this, so it's obviously bullshit".

There's plenty of evidence why it's bullshit besides what I already stated... For one it's outdated as hell. It was founded in the 1930's by two alcoholics and the principles haven't changed at all with the times. Just think if we were still using the same practices in psychiatry and medicine as in the 1930's. A lot more people would be missing appendages from simple infections, and mentally ill people would be locked up indefinitely in psychiatric institutions and subjected to all sorts of horror. Also as a faith based organization up until 2007 I believe it was still legal to court order someone into AA which is a direct violation of the first amendment.

Are there hypocrites in AA? Yes, I'm not disputing that. Is there contradictions in the antiquated literature? Sure. None of that changes the fact that the steps are actually an incredibly useful tool for changing somebodies entire outlook on life. And I know this probably doesn't hold any weight with anybody whose posted in this thread so far - but even the Dalai Lama has said that if he could no longer practice Buddhism, the next best thing would be working AA's 12 steps - and in my opinion thats fuckin' saying something.

I never heard such a thing but what the Dalai Lama has to do with 12 steps I have clue. I mean what, he's going to admit he's powerless over alcohol? I never even knew he was an alcoholic. I wonder if he advocates telling atheists to find god?

I have personally seen people totally transformed from immature, ignorant, arrogant, selfish and self centered pieces of shit - into respectable Men and Women. I myself have started to become a respectable member of society because of the changes in my outlook and thinking that I have earned through working the steps. There are many aspects of the program besides the steps that I don't agree with, so what? I don't pay attention to them, and don't pay attention to people who preach them.

If someone finds AA works well for them then fine, but at the same time I think there's a lot better recovery programs out there. And why would you choose a recovery program that as you stated has many aspects that you don't agree with? To me that doesn't seem very optimal for recovery or taking a program seriously. There's plenty of others out there that aren't faith and guilt based, and are way more relevant to the times.

Oh, and speaking of bullshit...

 

[sarcophagus.heels]

^ Haha, I was literally just about to link to that video. Penn and Teller are fantastic.

I had a bad impression from AA from the beginning. The first time I started the program, it was as part of an out-patient hospitalization, and after I expressed difficulty with accepting the fundamental tenants of the 12 steps, on an intellectual and philosophical level, she told me that "intellectual-types often do poorly in AA", and that "you can never be too dumb for AA, but I've seen people that are too smart for it." I was like "lol, what? Is that supposed to be helpful?"

During a mandatory AA meeting at my first in-patient hospitalization, we read the "We Agnostics" chapter in the big book. Which I was excited for, because I hoped that it would clarify how I didn't have to compromise my worldview for the sake of AA. But to my chagrin, the chapter focuses on how people have become distracted by Reason and Logic, and need faith to heal. It ends with a description of a nonbelieving man in recovery having a sudden religious experience that cures him of his alcoholism, and he hasn't felt the urge to drink since. The rest of the evening devolved into an argument where about a dozen attendees berated me for my lack of religious faith, and I was put in the position of trying to convince people that being an atheist doesn't mean that I "hate" religion, or the religious, it's just not my personal philosophy, but if your personal faith is helpful to you, then more power to you.

Because of pressure from the different programs I was in, I forced myself to attend AA meetings at least weekly for a year or so. I tried, I really did. And there are some good people in those meetings, and clearly there are many people who have benefited from the program. But I find the 12 steps to be totally disempowering, fundamentally based on faith and relinquishing your sense of agency. Also, hearing other alcoholics talk about nothing about drinking for an hour often just made me want to go buy a fifth and have a pity party.

There are other better programs out there. Unfortunately, AA has a near monopoly on recovery programs. It's reeeally hard to find an alternate program if you're far from a big city, which is a bummer. Something's gotta be done about it.

 

[_DankOpiAmp_]

AA also hasn't helped "millions" of people, it has annoyed and shamed millions of people while helping thousands. Only weak minded morons succeed in AA, and it is not all weak minded morons either, because then the success rate would be much higher. You also used a fallacy. AA doesn't help an additional 5% above those who do nothing. Some people who would have succeeded anyways do so with the program, some who would have gotten clean without cultist shaming/repetitive mantra designed to break down independent thought do not and some extremely pathetic people sacrifice their minds to the cult and do get off drugs. You have to take all of those subtypes into consideration.

 

[electrodevo]

Why is it that people who don't agree with AA feel the need to talk shit about it?

A) AA/NA is the go-to court ordered system for many drug and alcohol convictions in the US. I think this is the #1 reason to shit on AA; the fact that judges force people to go to it and the fact that it is a religious based program, not a scientific based program.

B) AA/NA can be extremely helpful as a support group. This can be great. However, some AA attendees become zealots and reject other forms of medical treatment and psychological help. This is honestly most likely not good. I personally think support groups are probably most useful in tandem with other methodologies. The medical community has progressed a fair bit on addiction neuropharmacology over the years; my guess is, in the future at some point, AA-only zealotry will become about as quaint as "faith healing".

C) One of AA's basis is along the lines of "once an alcoholic / always an alcoholic". This, medically speaking, is pure horseshit and I think a very unhelpful, fatalistic outlook.

I do think AA can be helpful for certain personality types, very helpful in some cases. Especially if they utilize the AA philosophy "in moderation" so to speak.

References:
http://www.psmag.com/navigation/boo...lcoholics-anonymous-time-admit-problem-74268/
http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...octors_are_support_groups_or_medications.html

 

[CaseFace]

I live in an area that has tens of thousands of people between the ages of 16-35 who go to meetings, and I think because of this in general AA is completely different here then in other places. I will concede my presence in this thread with admitting that my experience is different then yours, so debating the point one way or the other would be pointless.

The facts though, are that myself and countless others I have met work the steps in such a way that has nothing to do with religion, faith, god, or any of the other "bullshit"" aforementioned in this thread.

Just to show an example of another way to look at the steps:

The Spiral Steps
1. We admitted that we had a problem and made the decision to reclaim our lives.
2. We came to believe that there was hope for healing, health and balance.
3. We now honor our connection with the divine, as we understand it, and we accept the process of change.
4. We make a searching, fearless and honest inventory of our behavior and beliefs. We consider their effect on our physical, mental, emotional and spiritual selves and their impact on our relations with others.
5. We admit to ourselves and to another human being what is both healthy and unhealthy in our lives and we make a daily commitment to heal ourselves in body, mind and spirit.
6. We are willing to seek our Highest Good and to grow both spiritually and emotionally.
7. We let go of dysfunctional thoughts and behaviors and we consciously welcome joy, love and peace into our lives.
8. We make a list of all beings we have harmed, including ourselves, and we become willing to make amends to them all.
9. We work to restore balance in our lives. We make direct amends to others wherever possible and we value and care for ourselves.
10. We continue to take personal inventory and promptly acknowledge both our mistakes and our achievements whenever they occur.
11. We continue to grow in compassion, strength and understanding. We learn to celebrate our lives and our connection to all living things.
12. Having had a spiritual and emotional awakening, we work to help others along the path and we practice these principles in all our affairs.


I realize as I post this, that it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand because it's not AA. Sure, AA is filled with a bunch of bullshit - but I guess my point is exactly the same as Pen & Teller's point in that episode - Sculpt your own program, and don't be afraid to use aspects of something and leave other aspects out while doing that. Don't follow something you don't agree with, but don't assume that every single aspect of something is bullshit because there or parts you don't like. While these 12 steps aren't AA, they are still part of the 12 step world. AA doesn't own the 12 steps and religion doesn't own spirituality.

The 12 steps have changed a lot since 1930, by the way. And I don't mean alternate versions like these ones - I mean specifically AA's version. When AA started it was like 5-6 steps, not 12. It has expanded into what it is now since then. And while posting this alternate version doesn't hold any weight in this discussion, it's still a very valid thing worth sharing that working these steps is essentially the exact same thing as working AA's 12 steps, just without god.

 

[sarcophagus.heels]

AA also hasn't helped "millions" of people, it has annoyed and shamed millions of people while helping thousands. Only weak minded morons succeed in AA, and it is not all weak minded morons either, because then the success rate would be much higher. You also used a fallacy. AA doesn't help an additional 5% above those who do nothing. Some people who would have succeeded anyways do so with the program, some who would have gotten clean without cultist shaming/repetitive mantra designed to break down independent thought do not and some extremely pathetic people sacrifice their minds to the cult and do get off drugs. You have to take all of those subtypes into consideration.

I agree with most of what you said, but I don't agree that "only weak minded morons succeed in AA". There are great people that go to those meetings, and the people who succeed with AA would probably have succeeded in a program that isn't centered on such a disempowering philosophy. Often, I think people tend to give AA too much credit for their success - if they were able to beat their addiction, whichever way they did so, then good for them.

Your last point is what gets me the most about AA. I attended a lot of different groups while attending to find a good fit. Some were better than others, but there was this underlying culty aspect to it - a lot of empty aphorisms and mantras that people had just sort of internalized without giving them too much thought. It made me deeply uncomfortable. The sheer amount of cognitive dissonance involved in trying to accept the 12 steps just confused me more than anything. It's hard to try to feel strong enough to overcome a horrible addiction when you are surrounded by people who are telling you that you're powerless. There was no getting around that for me.


And electrodevo, you are spot on. People wouldn't be so angry about AA/NA if he wasn't made out to be the ONLY option for recovery and support. If it was just one of many options presented to people, and they didn't feel like they were forced into something they didn't want to be in, there wouldn't be so much backlash.

 

[omnipresenthuman]

Well, all people are basically hypocritical...if we're all honest with ourselves...so, don't see why you're surprised, OP. The AA is just full of regular, fucked, people.

This really isn't that different than being disillusioned by any organized religion. Even Buddhism has monks who've been accused of molesting disciples...

You definitely don't need an organized body like AA/NA to get clean - it's just getting other people up in your business. Some people just DIG that communal aspect when they're getting clean...

 

[CaseFace]

The problem I have with what all of you are saying is not that it's 100% simply untrue - It's that it's all massive generalizations about a very diverse group of people. There is absolutely no difference between what you guys are saying and saying that every single Jew is a greedy money grubbing douchebag, or that every black person is a dirty criminal fried chicken loving watermelon eater, or that every single Asian is great at math and sucks at driving - Stereotypical generalizations that simply do not hold true to entire populations of people. Are there tons of people in AA who match exactly what you guys are describing? YES. Are there tons of people, like myself, who are the exact opposite of what you guys are describing? YES. The difference is that I'm willing to admit that both types exist...

Where I live, there are multiple AA meetings every single day of the week that are nothing like what you guys describe. There are even plenty of specifically atheist/agnostic meetings around here... And even at the meetings that aren't specifically atheist/agnostic you are STILL going to find dozens of people who refuse to go to church or even use a judeo-christian god as their higher power.

I interviewed 20 people in AA at random about what their higher powers were and literally ONE person out of the 20 called their higher power god. The other 19 used things such as "meetings", "the universe", "my higher self", "meditation", etc. I legitimately did these interviews 6-7 months ago while doing my third step, because at the time I thought it meant I literally had to turn my will over to an all power flying spaghetti monster, so to speak and I wasn't cool with that. - Through my research I learned that this is not remotely what it means unless you so choose to look at it that way. NOW, every time I see or hear the word god at a meeting I simply think of "the connection between all living things." Does that make me a weak minded moron?

In one sense I really do agree with you guys - I do see people who treat the big book like the bible and preach religion to stay sober. But at least around here, I know WAY more people like me who utilize what works for them, leave the rest, and preach nothing. Maybe I live in a bubble - Maybe AA really is that bad in other areas, all I know is that you guys don't even go to AA and you're trying to talk shit about something you know nothing about. And not that it matters because you still think it's bullshit since you don't like it, but when it started there was only 5-6 steps, not 12 - so how is it that "things haven't changed since the beginning" when the number of steps has doubled?