β-phenethylamine - Limited Experience - More Amp than Coke

[Hammilton]

You'd have to take so much as to get rid of MAO-A and MAO-B.

While MAO-B is only effective against dopamine and phenethylamine and possibly one or two other very simple monoamines closely related to dopamine, MAO-A is effective against 5HT and NE-like monoamines, AND dopamine-like monoamines.

I lean towards believing his claims. I have heard it said many times that PEA's effects are noticeable without an MAOI if administered at very high doses. (I know what Shulgin et al say on the matter, but presumably he didn't test it on that many people; some may have naturally fairly low levels of MAOs and others naturally high levels. Perhaps Shulgin's were all high end of the continuum in terms of MAO concentrations.)

Sure, it's reasonable to believe that there is some variation on human MAO levels. However, the variation needed here would be pretty extreme. Possible, sure, but given that MAO is possibly one of the most important enzymes in the body, enabling us not to die from eating anything with much tyrosine and tyramine. Unfortunately, they're both rather ubiquitous in our diets.

It's not reasonable to believe that he had accidentally taken an MAO-I. If he had done so, four grams would have resulted in death. Both mitragyna, who I've been talking to about this, and I have overdosed on this drug. It's very easy to do, unfortunately- and our doses were no where near four grams. They were nowhere near a gram. Not even close to half a gram. Maybe a 250mg (1/4 gram).

Phenethylamine is a TAAR agonist, however. If there is any activity at all associated with PEA in un-deMAO'd people, it's likely to result only from TAAR agonism. TAAR agonism may produce some anxiolytic effect, but (so far) there's no indication that selective agonists will be recreational.

I'm not concerned with what Shulgin has to say about the subject; his analysis is useful in understanding the qualitative nature of psychedelics (where even with similar binding affinities and ratios, the qualitative nature may be consistently different and remarkably constant) but it's not really useful here. Sample size is much too small, there's no control, subjects aren't administered the drug blind (as far as I can tell, anyway). However, there is lots and lots of research on the subject of PEA.


Interestingly, while I was researching the subject, I came across this http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/63/11/1209

It finds significantly elevated MAO-A levels in untreated depressed patients. I should look into comparisons between SSRIs, TCAs and MAO-A inhibitors in depression treatment. I wonder if MAO-A inhibitors are way more effective or not. I suspect not, given the efficacy of imipramine.

 

[psood0nym]

^Thanks for trying this out. I've been curious about it as well. It seems like a cheap and plentiful source of non-committal euphoria, to be blunt. In other words, really fun, not terribly fascinating, and a potential trouble-maker. Maybe one for summer...

 

[Morissey]

Phenethylamine = phenylethylamine = beta-Phenethylamine = beta-PEA = PEA

You still don't understand what the placebo effect is, do you?

The fact that you say it wasn't placebo doesn't mean anything. When you experience placebo effect, you cannot tell the difference. This is the reason drugs are administered in a double blind fashion in scientific studies.

This is why bioassays really aren't all that useful. When you have a large collection of them, it may be interesting to comb through them to find similarities.

I’m not stupid. You should stop being idiotic and accusing us of not knowing what the placebo effect is. EVERYONE I have given PEA too (sourced from the link in my previous post) got very noticeable effects. It was almost overwhelming for me at one stage on 4-5 grams with an empty stomach. Placebo effect is not even a possibility here.

Now the product could be adulterated but I highly doubt that... There has to be a misunderstanding.

Without food: (Food kills it completely)
500mg = barely noticable
1g = barely noticable
1.5-2g = noticably tingles
3-5g+ = very noticable tingles and light-headedness

Personally I don't find the substance very enjoyable. To suggest that it is non-active or placebo is obsurd.

 

[Hammilton]

I’m not stupid. You should stop being idiotic and accusing us of not knowing what the placebo effect is. EVERYONE I have given PEA too (sourced from the link in my previous post) got very noticeable effects. It was almost overwhelming for me at one stage on 4-5 grams with an empty stomach. Placebo effect is not even a possibility here.

Actually, you're making yourself look more and more so. If you experienced placebo effect you would not know it or be able to distinguish it from the real thing. Your experience would appear very real to you. This is why subjective report's are largely useless in determining activity and why blind trials are standard for drug approval.

If you were on an MAOI, you would have a rational basis for assuming your experience was real. Barring such, where every bit of carefully obtained evidence says it's activity is absent outside of this condition, it would be irrational- and stupid- to believe that your reports are anything else.

Unless you were smoking cigarettes (or taking a small handful of herbal supplements with MAO-B inhibiting activity), there is no logical explanation, and placebo effect is the most likely and most reasonable explanation.

Constantly saying "It's not placebo because I really felt it, and other's did too!" only makes it more obvious that you don't understand what placebo effect actually is.

 

[Morissey]

Actually, you're making yourself look more and more so. If you experienced placebo effect you would not know it or be able to distinguish it from the real thing. Your experience would appear very real to you. This is why subjective report's are largely useless in determining activity and why blind trials are standard for drug approval.

If you were on an MAOI, you would have a rational basis for assuming your experience was real. Barring such, where every bit of carefully obtained evidence says it's activity is absent outside of this condition, it would be irrational- and stupid- to believe that your reports are anything else.

Unless you were smoking cigarettes (or taking a small handful of herbal supplements with MAO-B inhibiting activity), there is no logical explanation, and placebo effect is the most likely and most reasonable explanation.

Constantly saying "It's not placebo because I really felt it, and other's did too!" only makes it more obvious that you don't understand what placebo effect actually is.

I would love to see you taking 10grams of the stuff...

It is extremely unlikley to be a placebo due to the intensity of effects. That, and the fact that not one person out of the 8 or so I know who have tried it have not felt anything.

I have used a lot of substances in my time, I am 100% sure this not a placebo, I don't believe such strong effects could come from a placebo and effect everyone who tries it.

I'm sure that for anyone who has consumed 4grams+ on an empty stomach, the idea of it being a placebo is laughable. Find me someone who has had 4-8 grams of the stuff (empty stomach) and felt nothing lol

Why dont you go ahead and try it for yourself... then you will see..


(I am not on any MAOIs)

 

[Hammilton]

For the record, about a month ago I did take this challenge. 8 grams, empty stomach. No effect. Well, significant nausea. Vomited once after about twenty minutes.

Still have two grams, will probably take some selegiline and enjoy it properly.

It's been years since I stopped using it and I still crave it.

 

[atara]

I was able to do this successfully by taking a (usually broken) caffeine pill about ~20 min beforehand, presumably it's gastro-pro-kinetic (though some suggested it's a weak MAOI) i.e. clears out the stomach, then taking ~1.5g PEA dissolved in water. The water tastes foul beyond belief. The resulting effect lasts about 20-30 minutes, hardly long enough to be worth it IMO, but at the time I didn't have other options. Focus is not great; euphoria is prominent.

Somewhat amusingly, 1-phenethylamine seems to be the more likely candidate for an effective stimulant.

 

[JBrandon]

It's been years since I stopped using it and I still crave it.

The reports you posted didn't make it sound like anything that special, so it's interesting to me that you miss it. Must have that just right combo - positive effects & minimal crash.

 

[Hammilton]

Well, it's addiction, I suppose. It felt like extremely clean amphetamine. I've since tried enantiopure d-amphetamine, and this is very similar. Prominent, clean euphoria with almost no peripheral effects. The clash was extremely mild compared to other stimulants I've done. Taking adderall two consecutive days results in a day long lethargy on that third day, if experienced without the drug, but this beta-phenethylamine? Nope. Most fast onset, short duration drugs make for a powerful crash. Not this. It's probably like dexedrine that gets removed from your brain before it has a chance to cause serious damage. If you were to dose constantly throughout the day, I've no doubt that the crash would be horrendous, but I only did it for five hours or so.

Edit: I don't know about the 1-phenethylamine thing. I had some (have some? I dunno right now, would have to look where I put it) but never consumed it; doesn't it have MAO inhibiting properties? I can't remember why I shelved it now, I think I started a thread on benzylamine derived stimulants a long time ago. That it would be a stimulant isn't surprising, I mean pcp is a benzylamine.

 

[bloodshed344]

Right, because eating 4 grams would result in death. Strong effects are noted from 200mg. I think it's fairly safe to say that 20x that dose would result in death.

Phenethylamine is entirely without effect unless an MAOI is administered. There are many studies proving this. It's fair to assume that any effects noticed when someone is not an MAOI are the result of placebo, I think.

Old post but I just want to say that it's possible that eating such a large amount at once that some of it would end up getting absorbed but it wouldn't be enough for death obviously.

 

[JBrandon]

@bloodshed - the issue isn't absorption but rather enzymatic degradation.

I just read a report the other day that several "natural weight loss" pills were found to contain this. Interesting to see how (if) they got it to be active. Plenty of "natural" MAOIs out there, but then you're looking at selling a product with a very large liability for harmful interactions...

 

[ebola?]

this beta-phenethylamine? Nope. Most fast onset, short duration drugs make for a powerful crash. Not this.

I've found the maob inhibition from selegiline to severely attenuate stimulant crashes, so that could be what was at play there.

ebola

 

[Solipsis]

Placebo effect can knock a person unconscious in some cases, how is that for intense effect? Shulgin reported this in PIHKAL as one of the decisive moments in his life that made him want to become a chemist.
Though what I don't understand personally is how placebo effects are not necessarily that consistent with expectations or pre-existing knowledge of a substance.
I myself found PEA to have a very short-lived warm and lovey-dovey mood elevating and boosting effect. The only other thing that is that short-lived for me is GABA. In any case I wouldn't try to make any claims based on either of those reactions.

 

[ebola?]

Though what I don't understand personally is how placebo effects are not necessarily that consistent with expectations or pre-existing knowledge of a substance.

I think that because most cognitive processing occurs unconsciously, we're largely unaware of the majority of our 'expectations' and how they influence our experiences.

ebola