Benzos What the come on of benzo withdrawal feels like?

[lecroute]

So it sounds like you’ve being dosing daily for over a year and can stop without withdrawal?

I don't take benzos daily. I have periods of days to weeks where I take none, because I either don't feel like it (after taking too much for some days I had enough of how they work on me) or because I think it's a good thing to lower the dose to avoid building up tolerance.

 

[lecroute]

We are all human but some of us seem to have more resistance to dependency than others it seems

Yes. And that's why it's so treacherous to replace one thing with another (like quitting drinking by using benzos without a doc to control your benzos). And why alcoholics shouldn't smoke weed, or gamble, and things like that. It has to do with how a person's rewarding system works.

 

[50shadesofDave]

Lucid, be very careful in thinking your usage does'nt warrant a protracted w/d.
I have been searching for information online to help myself, i came across a story from a lady online that ended up in a protracted state. She was using for a little over a year and was scripted a low dose of alprazolam (.75 per day) 3 x .25 if i remember correctly.
She had the lot, akasthesia etc.

Go easy with things and on yourself, to me it seems benzos themselves can wreak havoc in small amounts dependant on the person.

I wish you well mate when you go for it.
Take care.

 

[mauve]

Check out benzobuddies a wealth of info on benzodiazepenes.

The onset of WD symptoms are very dependent on dose, type of Benzo and your physiology.

Me personally the start of diazepam WD is extreme fatigue and hypersensitivity to sound, and other stimuli. After a re-dose I'm back in the room.

When I went cold turkey, pure panic, hallucinations, tachycardia, hypertensive crisis ugh

 

[LucidSDreamr]

yep, those sound to me like my benzo wd symptoms. and if you HAVENT gotten them yet, if you use them regularly you will. even 10mg a day is enough to cause awful wd, and if i could go back i would never use them more than once every few months.
If you are starting to get benzo wd, RUN from them. The wds seriously make opioid wd look like a fun time. so very bad.

There are the only thing working for my chronic pain right now. Only 10 mg works better than a knockout dose of opioids. When the pain subsides i can take Tolerance breaks but its been going strong recently without letting me take my breaks.

So I just live with permanent pain?

Idk man i might die before i ever have to go through full blown benzo withdrawal and living a life in pain until that point is going to really destroy my life.

But i will tread very cautiously and use as little as possible. Cut down to 5 mg maybe

I really hate this life on drugs man. Drugs were what destroyed me and gave me permanent pain/organ damage and now other drigs seem to be the only way to live normally.

 

[lecroute]

Check out benzobuddies a wealth of info on benzodiazepenes.

??

 

[negrogesic]

Bacopa extract and (liposomal)fisetin+quercetin modulate normalize the receptor expression and binding affinities of GABA-A and NMDA receptors (as well as apparently some of the other receptors as well like serotonin and dopamine).

There is ample evidence that you can search regarding bacopa. It even normalizes Gaba receptor density and function after experimental damage by pilocarpine in a mouse model of epilepsy.

Decreased GABA receptor in the cerebral cortex of epileptic rats: effect of Bacopa monnieri and Bacoside-A

Gamma amino butyric acid (GABA), the principal inhibitory neurotransmitter in the cerebral cortex, maintains the inhibitory tones that counter balances neuronal excitation. When this balance is perturbed, seizures may ensue.In the present study, alterations ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The fisetin I happened upon by accident, I take large doses as a senolytic treatment, and I took an especially large dose when I was released from alcohol detox last year. For the first time on my life I had no cravings for alcohol whatsoever. I could literally go to the bar, hang around people drinking and not be interested at all. I analyzed what was different this time and the only different thing was the three-day course of 1,000 mg of liposomal fisetin and quercetin three times a day.

I found several studies identifying that both fisetin and quercetin modulate, GABA receptors and Glu receptors studies varied with respect to how they did it but obviously it seemed that things normalized.

fisetin binds to GABA and AMPA receptors

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-binding-site-and-molecular-position-of-fisetin-to-GABA-A-receptor-the-views-of-the_fig5_362617737

(fisetin significantly increases Gaba levels in the brain)

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2210523912000323

quercetin modulates the effect of GABA and NMDA receptors

"Notably, systemic and prefrontal-specific delivery of quercetin reduced basal locomotor activity in addition to alleviated the MK-801-induced hyperactivity."

Quercetin Reduces Cortical GABAergic Transmission and Alleviates MK-801-Induced Hyperactivity

An imbalance between neuronal excitation and inhibition represents a core feature in multiple neuropsychiatry disorders, necessitating the development of novel strategies to calibrate the excitatory–inhibitory balance of therapeutics. Here we ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I have used bacopa in the past which absolutely helped with Gabaergic and serotonergic dopaminergic imbalance but never kept me from wanting to drink. Perhaps this time the combination did the trick.

Anyway, hopefully that will work for you.

I tried quercetin a few times and each time found it to be too anxiogenic. But yes, one would hope NAM of GABA-A would promote unregulation, but each time I took quercetin it's induced anxiety in me.

Was thinking of trying to obtain or even travel abroad for flumazenil therapy (since I haven't seen it offered in the US). Granted, I've always been anxious, but after going through two periods of severe benzo withdrawal from sustained, massive doses of benzos, that damage has been quite severe.

The brain's constant efforts to maintain homeostasis during exposure to high-dose, long-term benzo exposure can result in epigenetic changes, such as expression of genes encoding the associated subunits of the GABA-A receptor, eventually leading to a decreased number/lowered efficacy/reduced sensitivity to GABA-A. And of course, given the far reaching role of GABA as the ultimate inhibitory neurotransmitter, there are all kinds of downstream neuroplastic changes that occur when sensitivity to it is diminished.

Long-term benzodiazepine use is like continually turning down a dimmer switch on a light, only to find that over time, it requires more effort to achieve the same level of darkness and eventually, when fucked with enough, the switch stops working entirely, and you can never fully dim it all the way down (thus a little light is still coming through all the time -- glutamate, etc). It's interesting, during benzo withdrawal or benzo rebound you can actually see the "light" leaking through when you're laying in bed trying to sleep. Normal when you close your eyes when you're trying to sleep you see relative darkness. But during benzo withdrawal, with your eyes shut, things seem brighter. That's that glutaminergic light shining through, so to speak.

Feels alot different than opioid withdrawal, which is something that you can pretty much fully recover from. Serious benzo dependencies leave an impression on you that never fully goes away. Unfortunately I put myself through two bouts of it, punctuated by maybe 7 years

I have not made significant attempts to try to ameliorate or upregulate, if at all possible, largely because I developed a phenibut dependency that I'm still trying to rid myself off. I will say, while the insomnia is brutal, pregabalin, gabapentin and phenibut withdrawal don't even remotely compare to benzo withdrawal (which feels like being a star of a horror film that never fully ends).

 

[LucidSDreamr]

I tried quercetin a few times and each time found it to be too anxiogenic. But yes, one would hope NAM of GABA-A would promote unregulation, but each time I took quercetin it's induced anxiety in me.

Was thinking of trying to obtain or even travel abroad for flumazenil therapy (since I haven't seen it offered in the US). Granted, I've always been anxious, but after going through two periods of severe benzo withdrawal from sustained, massive doses of benzos, that damage has been quite severe.

The brain's constant efforts to maintain homeostasis during exposure to high-dose, long-term benzo exposure can result in epigenetic changes, such as expression of genes encoding the associated subunits of the GABA-A receptor, eventually leading to a decreased number/low efficacy/sensitivity to GABA-A. And of course, given the far reaching role of GABA as the ultimate inhibitory neurotransmitter, there are all kinds of downstream neuroplastic changes that occur when sensitivity to it is diminished.

Long-term benzodiazepine use is like continually turning down a dimmer switch on a light, only to find that over time, it requires more effort to achieve the same level of darkness and eventually, when fucked with enough, the switch stops working entirely, and you can never fully dim it all the way down (thus a little light is still coming through all the time -- glutamate, etc). It's interesting, during benzo withdrawal or benzo rebound you can actually see the "light" leaking through when you're laying in bed trying to sleep. Normal when you close your eyes when you're trying to sleep you see relative darkness. But during benzo withdrawal, with your eyes shut, things seem brighter. That's that glutaminergic light shining through, so to speak.

I have not made significant attempts to try to ameliorate or unregulate, if at all possible, largely because I developed a phenibut dependency that I'm still trying to rid myself off. I will say, while the insomnia is brutal, pregabalin, gabapentin and phenibut withdrawal don't even remotely compare to benzo withdrawal (which feels like being a star of a horror film that never truly ends).

That’s just the benzos. I recall reading you’ve been up to like 300 mg of methadone with fentanyl on top of it. And kicked all that and the benzos.

Jesus I can’t imagine.

As far as permanent damage from all this what would you rate it if you could?

Let’s say 10 means you eventually (even after year(s)) felt normal again. And 1 means you stayed fucked up and basically ruined forever.

 

[mauve]

??

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[lecroute]

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There was a question in that post. Internet's been a pain in the ass today. Let me see....
Ah! It was about this

Check out benzobuddies a wealth of info on benzodiazepenes.

I couldn't find it (internet troubles) but did by now. THX

 

[mauve]

There was a question in that post. Internet's been a pain in the ass today. Let me see....
Ah! It was about this

I couldn't find it (internet troubles) but did by now. THX

Oh sorry, yeah benzobuddies.org is a great forum for anyone affected by benzos

 

[negrogesic]

That’s just the benzos. I recall reading you’ve been up to like 300 mg of methadone with fentanyl on top of it. And kicked all that and the benzos.

Jesus I can’t imagine.

As far as permanent damage from all this what would you rate it if you could?

Let’s say 10 means you eventually (even after year(s)) felt normal again. And 1 means you stayed fucked up and basically ruined forever.

Yeah I used to have a monster opioid habit, was at 380mg/day of methadone, ontop of which I still tried to get high by shooting 100ug/hr fentanyl patches whole (16.8mg of fentanyl in one shot), and have also withdrawn at various times from a huge array of pharmaceutical and opioids, even less common things like opium, tianeptine, and loperamide.

But I don't think any of my opioid use caused me any lasting damage. Maybe it's entirely unrelated, but opioids might have even slowed down the aging process because I look unusually young. Any lasting damage from opioids is definitely more related to the process of injecting them, rather than any inherent toxicity. I mean, I permanently collapsed some veins in my arms and my feet, and i think i might have had a mild heart attack from "cotton fever" (i was out of heroin so I used a bunch of old cotton filters to try to get some residue). But I never once OD'd (at least, not seriously) -- although I did once near fatally OD'd on the qualude analog etaqualone (I underestimated its barbiturate-type power and woke up days later, half-alive and gagging in an ICU with a breathing tube down my throat).

Benzodiazepines are far less forgiving because, compared to opioids (who's effects are more confined to specific systems within the brain), benzos produce very widespread ("global") inhibitory effects by increasing the effect of a much more important messenger in the brain - GABA (which is very deeply integrated into the brain's functioning). It's simply a far more complicated system, responsible for maintaining the brain's overall inhibitory tone, whereas again, opioid receptors have a far more limited role in the brain. Also, the following is just an assumption (but bet there is research out there that corroborates), but I imagine that opioid receptors, being G protein-coupled receptors, are much easier to bring back into homeostasis than GABA-A receptors (which are ligand-gated ion channels) and are less susceptible to epigenetic damage (aka, opioids are less epigenotoxic than benzos). Basically, benzos are neurotoxic, whereas most opioids aren't.

The problem is, benzos are so goddamn effective. I feel like no drug is as effective as benzos are in terms of the treatment of specific symptom (meaning, I feel like benzos are more effective at relieving anxiety than opioids are at treating pain, though they both do their job well). This is why, I find myself taking benzos at least a few times a year. This year has been much worse though, and I haven't fully paid my tab yet. Whatever anxiety they do relieve, you've got to pay it all back, with interest. At least I do (given my shot GABA-A receptors).

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Whatever anxiety they do relieve, you've got to pay it all back, with interest. At least I do (given my shot GABA-A receptors).

not if you die before you kick. How sick is that? That that is my thought process.

Thanks for the thorough reply.

Most recreational opioid users say they always return to normal but I don’t know the hyperalgesia might be permanent to some extent if you happen to have chronic pain and also have a long opioid history.

I can’t prove it and have searched the literature but I feel that my sensitivity to pain is permanently fucked, but there is some evidence that I was like that before because I had chronic pain since childhood for various reasons long before I found opioids.


I used to have a script of the fent patches too. I would shoot them but I liked extracting with alcohol and smoking better. That resulted in my only overdose despite using mountains of regular illicit fentanyl without problems. Then again I was on 6 drugs when I ODed on those patches. MDMA, fentanyl, oxy, alcohol, benzos, mxe, and amphetamine.

When they tested me at the hospital they were like “who the fuck are you?” Like it was a spectacle the nurses had never seen a tox screen that crazy.



It was after getting home from a rave. Hit that foil and woke up in the ambulance with the narcan crushing my soul amd body covered in my own shit that kept coming out of me all night even after being discharged and my wife cleaning me like a baby all night.

I HATE BEING A DRUG ADDICT AND A PAIN PATIENT SO MUCH!!!!!!! I hate what I am. Luckily I don’t hate who I am.

I’m trying to work recovery these days but when you’re also medicated and in pain it is so complicated and barley anybody in recovery understands chronic physical pain.

 

[mauve]

I can't deny all the damage chronic benzo prescriptions have done, in an interview prof Ashton replied that it could be compared to the thalidomide scandal, and if benzodiazepenes were discovered now, there is no way they would be approved for use in medicine.

But I continue to read many success stories, and we Benzo warriors by sharing our knowledge of various methods to be Benzo free gives me hope I too shall heal like many others have

 

[lecroute]

Maybe it's entirely unrelated, but opioids might have even slowed down the aging process because I look unusually young.

Many opioid/heroin users I've known appear younger that what they are. It's not only the looks, but also the way they "tick". Even the high-functioning ones seemed to never give a shit about the stuff that make most average people so miserable (newer car, better schools, nicer clothes, cheaper insurance...)

Whatever anxiety they do relieve, you've got to pay it all back, with inter

Reading this I'm relieved I wasn't prescribed benzos because of anxiety issues. Doesn't mean I never had anxious moments for no.apparent reason at all.

I’m trying to work recovery these days but when you’re also medicated and in pain it is so complicated and barley anybody in recovery understands chronic physical pain.

I imagine it's a difficult situation, being treated for an addiction for something you need for medical reasons. It's what happens to me and benzos. There are illnesses, and injuries, and conditions that won't go away with relaxation techniques and 12-step programs and al the positive thinking in the world.

 

[lecroute]

I can't deny all the damage chronic benzo prescriptions have done, in an interview prof Ashton replied that it could be compared to the thalidomide scandal, and if benzodiazepenes were discovered now, there is no way they would be approved for use in medicine.

But I continue to read many success stories, and we Benzo warriors by sharing our knowledge of various methods to be Benzo free gives me hope I too shall heal like many others have

This thread is beginning to make me anxious

 

[Kingoffrogs]

You will be anxious, irritable, have nausea, insonmnia, headaches... you might get really sweaty or shaky...

Really it varies from person to person, and it also depends on a multitude of factors, IE are you withdrawing from Xanax or Diazepam, how hydrated are you, how long where you taking them, how frequently where you taking them, etc. But you should experience at the very least one or two of the symptoms I listed above, they are pretty common among those suffering from benzo/alcohol withdrawal.

 

[mauve]

benzo.org.uk : Benzodiazepines: How They Work & How to Withdraw, Prof C H Ashton DM, FRCP, 2002

 

[lecroute]

After the clona fun I had yesterday and today, I'm beginning to feel a little restless (not just the legs). I'm a bit sleepy, but also feeling the need to do something. I already refilled my water bottle because I know I will need it (btw: drinking lots of liquids is something I always do when taking higher doses of benzos because they keep me from getting sleepy when I don't want/need to sleep). I can still feel the physical relaxation, but I know this will be over soon because my subconscious is already busy with ugly everyday stuff. It's 9:56 pm and though I don't need to wake up super early, I'm already in bed hoping that for once I will be able to sleep for more than 4-5 hours. It will take me a while to be able to.sleep, even if I'm feeling sleepy. And the restlessness will get worse. I'll begin to feel uncomfortable no matter how I sit/lie/stand. I'll become impatient. And I know that eventually I will have to take at least a little bit of clona to be okay.
So that's the thing with coming off.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

You will be anxious, irritable, have nausea, insonmnia, headaches... you might get really sweaty or shaky...

Really it varies from person to person, and it also depends on a multitude of factors, IE are you withdrawing from Xanax or Diazepam, how hydrated are you, how long where you taking them, how frequently where you taking them, etc. But you should experience at the very least one or two of the symptoms I listed above, they are pretty common among those suffering from benzo/alcohol withdrawal.

I’m 3 days out from my last 10 mg of diazepam right now and none of those heavy things you described.

The only thing was not sleeping for 2 days even if opiated. So theres some level of dependency there already.

Luckily the opioid is working on the pain again now so I can take a T break from the Diaz.