THC and Dreaming~

[crazyhairman]

I take Delta 8 sometimes before bed. Usually causing me to eat a ton and play videogames for extended periods before bad.

But sometimes I will have extremely vivid long and intricate dreams. Dreams that uplift me even after I wake up the next day.

 

[Foreigner]

Cannabis suppresses REM (dream) sleep while you're using it, leading to lower quality sleeps, which is why a lot of cannabis users sleep more hours: the body is trying in vain to get some REM. When you stop cannabis, the body has REM rebound, so REM occurs more frequently and for longer during a sleep cycle, creating the impression of longer, crazier dreams.

It turns out that dreaming is a necessary part of the healthy brain. When you suppress it, the body rebounds harder with it at the first opportunity that suppression is removed.

The mechanism is probably related to the endocannabinoid system, which regulates sleep, as well as GABA, adenosine, and other neurotransitters. Cannabis has both stimulant and depressant properties. The depressant aspect acts on GABA.

My intuition (not scientific) is that the sleep cycle requires a balance of activity vs. sedation, so you'll have parts of the cycle that the body is heavily sedated and then others when the body is closer to wakefulness (REM) that requires less neurotransmitter restriction. Cannabis probably prevents this dance from happening properly.

 

[JackARoe]

Here is where I think more science is needed like the title of the thread says. I have been a cannabis smoker all my life. I use to remember my dreams even when smoking when I was younger. These days I can not remember my dreams UNLESS I get woken up right in the middle of one. A few times I awoke in the midst of a vivid dream that I for sure would have forgotten had I slept through it. So maybe it is a recall issue and not an actual dream issue.

Eh, I listen to very little on the science of cannabis and dreaming here in 2024 until we study more but how can we even do that? Too many people take too many things. And as the other posters said so many other substances that we as a society take can and do affect dreams.

Now if a drug prevents the deep sleep I think there could be a problem with rest. Makes me wonder if there is a drug that lets one dream but never lets one get to deep sleep.

Just an opinion. I still think you can be a cannabis smoker (as well as take numerous other drugs) and still be well rested whether a person dreams or not. If not we as a society will be tired all the time. Which we are, or we would not have a need for energy drinks.

I don’t miss dreams, though…they’d always just materialize as bizarre, disjointed and sometimes unpleasant or nightmarish narratives for me personally

I do know a lot of people that do not like to dream and when they do it is unpleasant. With cannabis it had been speculated the day dreams cover for the night dreams. But yeah, I don't think we know squat about dreams and cannabis. I trust the opinions here to be more on point. The dream intensity does come back with quitting for a short period for me.

 

[Skorpio]

Cannabis suppresses REM (dream) sleep while you're using it, leading to lower quality sleeps, which is why a lot of cannabis users sleep more hours: the body is trying in vain to get some REM. When you stop cannabis, the body has REM rebound, so REM occurs more frequently and for longer during a sleep cycle, creating the impression of longer, crazier dreams.

It turns out that dreaming is a necessary part of the healthy brain. When you suppress it, the body rebounds harder with it at the first opportunity that suppression is removed.

The mechanism is probably related to the endocannabinoid system, which regulates sleep, as well as GABA, adenosine, and other neurotransitters. Cannabis has both stimulant and depressant properties. The depressant aspect acts on GABA.

My intuition (not scientific) is that the sleep cycle requires a balance of activity vs. sedation, so you'll have parts of the cycle that the body is heavily sedated and then others when the body is closer to wakefulness (REM) that requires less neurotransmitter restriction. Cannabis probably prevents this dance from happening properly.

I looked up a review on THC and sleep, and figure 1 shows graphs of sleep of normal, acute thc, chronic thc, and thc withdrawal and it is a little more complex than suppression of REM sleep.

Acute THC decreases on average the number of REM sleep instances from 4 to 3. Chronic use increases the amount of REM sleep instances back to the normal number of 4, but increases the chance of waking up briefly after these REM instances.

As the effect of cannabis on dreaming is so penetrant, I don't think that a reduction to 3/4 is enough to explain the absence of recalled dreams. I would expect that to be explained by differences in memory generation around REM sleep rather than simply quantity of REM.

 

[Foreigner]

I looked up a review on THC and sleep, and figure 1 shows graphs of sleep of normal, acute thc, chronic thc, and thc withdrawal and it is a little more complex than suppression of REM sleep.

Acute THC decreases on average the number of REM sleep instances from 4 to 3. Chronic use increases the amount of REM sleep instances back to the normal number of 4, but increases the chance of waking up briefly after these REM instances.

As the effect of cannabis on dreaming is so penetrant, I don't think that a reduction to 3/4 is enough to explain the absence of recalled dreams. I would expect that to be explained by differences in memory generation around REM sleep rather than simply quantity of REM.

Interesting take. The endocannabinoid system does also relate to learning and memory. Hard to know how dream cycles are impacted exactly without knowing the mechanisms. There's a lot we don't understand about dreaming too. It could simply be a matter of neurochemistry up- or down-regulating related to circumstance. i.e. during chronic use, a new equilibrium is established that is not present during acute yes, hence acute use showing reduced REM.

Just to be clear though... I am mostly talking about vivid dreams and dream recall, as opposed to REM, and I brought up REM because it's related to dreaming. I think, observationally, even cannabis users have REM sleep. We can't survive without it. But the question is -- how is quality of REM affected by cannabis? It seems to negatively impact it.

When I used to use a lot of cannabis, I found it emotionally numbing... and it turns out that the limbic system is intimately related to the formation of memory, such that memory and emotions are intertwined. So I find it interesting that cannabis has a dulling effect on emotions, memories, learning, and dreams.

 

[Neuroprotection]

sorry, don’t mean to derail the thread but can someone tell me a little bit more about Delta8 THC and how it compares to normal THC in terms of effects. most specifically, I want to know if a high strength Delta8 edible will get you high to the point of paranoia or impaired judgement?

 

[Skorpio]

sorry, don’t mean to derail the thread but can someone tell me a little bit more about Delta8 THC and how it compares to normal THC in terms of effects. most specifically, I want to know if a high strength Delta8 edible will get you high to the point of paranoia or impaired judgement?

It is pretty similar to standard delta 9 thc, but maybe like 60% weaker. They could get you high to the point of paranoia, I'm not sure what the criteria for impaired judgement is. It certainly isn't as impairing as alcohol.

 

[MedicinalUser247]

Well I get a good night sleep from smoking weed. The dizziness and Closed eyed visuals are awesome. Just don't smoke too much because you'll feel fried the next day.

 

[Neuroprotection]

It is pretty similar to standard delta 9 thc, but maybe like 60% weaker. They could get you high to the point of paranoia, I'm not sure what the criteria for impaired judgement is. It certainly isn't as impairing as alcohol.

Thank you for that description. The reason I wanted to know about impaired judgement is for religious reasons. as a Muslim, alcohol is absolutely prohibited as are any other substances which may produce similar intoxicating effects. I would say the criteria for impairing judgement or causing intoxication is anything which makes you largely unaware of your surroundings, impairs rational decision-making including the possibility of making you do something you could would later regret or otherwise very likely to produce severe mental and physical harm. three doing some research and looking at what the scholars have said, I realise that certain psychoactive substances may be in a grey area but that most mainstream Muslim scholars simply prohibit them because they’re completely against the use of all drugs.

 

[Skorpio]

Thank you for that description. The reason I wanted to know about impaired judgement is for religious reasons. as a Muslim, alcohol is absolutely prohibited as are any other substances which may produce similar intoxicating effects. I would say the criteria for impairing judgement or causing intoxication is anything which makes you largely unaware of your surroundings, impairs rational decision-making including the possibility of making you do something you could would later regret or otherwise very likely to produce severe mental and physical harm. three doing some research and looking at what the scholars have said, I realise that certain psychoactive substances may be in a grey area but that most mainstream Muslim scholars simply prohibit them because they’re completely against the use of all drugs.

Yeah, I think if you go wirth the strict jnterpretation it is similar enough to weed to be over the line (I'm assuming weed is haram). Nicotine is more accepted, correct? What about other stimulants (from both the medicinal and recreational perspectives).

May I ask what branch of Islam you follow? Also do you know if there are different attitudes to non-alcohol drugs between Sunni and Shiite Muslims?

 

[Neuroprotection]

Yeah, I think if you go wirth the strict jnterpretation it is similar enough to weed to be over the line (I'm assuming weed is haram). Nicotine is more accepted, correct? What about other stimulants (from both the medicinal and recreational perspectives).

May I ask what branch of Islam you follow? Also do you know if there are different attitudes to non-alcohol drugs between Sunni and Shiite Muslims?

You are correct, weed containing THC which is able to cause intoxication is Haram.
Generally, the two main branches of Islam, Sunni and Shiites consider alcohol and other intoxicants to be Haram unless necessary for medical purposes. personally, I was born and lived most of my life as Sunni but after doing independent research in 2015, I converted to Shia Islam as I felt that the history and rulings made much more sense. i’ve kept my conversion secret from all of those around me.
Nicotine is generally acceptable when not smoked, most scholars from all branches of Islam consider smoking prohibited because of the immense damage it causes. however, because of societies modernisation/globalisation and things like the Internet, many low level preachers are now acting like scholars when they haven’t done the 30 years of intense full time study that would normally be required to be an Islamic scholar in the past. this leads to a major problem.
Certain drugs including some of the dopaminergic stimulants don’t intoxicate an and are quite safe when used at reasonable doses. this means these drugs potentially fall into a grey area and while I understand why most scholars discourage their use, I don’t think it’s fair to just prohibit everything.
I’ve even heard people trying to say nicotine is an intoxicant when that’s just not true.