Bupe Suboxone can ruin your life

[Hexenstahl]

There are many other drugs that should be first tried.

Like what?

But in the world where SSRIs are norm it's no surprise some come to conclusion that opiates are good alternative.

Especially since SSRIs completely mess with your serotonin system in the long-term. People often struggle with crippling, adverse health effects long after they have discontinued their use of SSRIs, which isn't the case with opioids. The swiss-german forum Eve&Rave is full of such threads. The mental imbalances caused by long-term SSRI use makes opioids even more attractive in psychiatric use in my opinion. This is why I'm interested to know what other drugs you think are better than opioids, because SSRIs and similar frankenstein ADs cause nothing but trouble for most people. The only downside I see with opioids is simply the incredibly powerful addictive potential, but in a system where opioids were freely available like at the end of the 19th century where no drug regulation laws existed, I see no problem with that.

Many people argue that opioids aren't suitable for treating mental illnesses such as depression because the euphoric response that is so highly sought after by depressed patients (I hate the term recreational because it doesn't illustrate WHY non-pain patients use opioids) diminishes over time. That is a bad argument to make, because a) the same is true for the physical painkilling response in pain patients (known as opioid-induced hyperalgesia) and we don't go around telling people to not use opioids to treat their pain because of OIH, and b) this problem can actually be solved by using either one of three options:

1) opioid rotation (I myself have unintentionally made the experience how switching from morphine to levomethadone during a period where I haven't used ULDN, got rid of almost all side effects and I felt the full effectiveness of opioids again. It was like being my old sober self with all the vitality and libido, while being high af all at the same time. This method is incredibly underrated in medicine). I wish opioid rotation was allowed in substitution therapy. Perhaps one day.

2) gradual dose reduction. If the dose falls below a certain threshold, the G-Protein coupled signalling switches somewhat back from Gs to Gi.

3) and today with the modern advances of science: ultra low dose naltrexone. That is my #1 method to keep opioids effective. I'm using it since 2 years now, daily (with the exception of the twoo weeks when I switched over to levo), and I haven't had to increase my dose even once, OIH went away, euphoria came back (ofc not to an opioid naive level, but that is not even necessary to treat depression effectively) and except itchiness I have no side effects whatsoever. Normal libido, no lethargy, no constipation, no nothing. However, due to the greed of the pharmaceutical-industrial complex, I don't see this becoming the norm in pain medicine as it massively cuts into the profits of said corporations due to the tolerance reducing effects it has on the patients. Therefore the patient must do that all by himself.


So I personally see opioids as the best option when it comes to using a non-toxic antidepressant medication (but I'm open minded, so if you have a better argument, then I'm open for change). I'm gonna have to post some excerpts from opioids in mental illness here in the forum eventually. Too many people aren't aware of the incredibly versatile uses that opioids can have at different dosages.

 

[Aqlis]

2) gradual dose reduction. If the dose falls below a certain threshold, the G-Protein coupled signalling switches somewhat back from Gs to Gi.

3) and today with the modern advances of science: ultra low dose naltrexone. That is my #1 method to keep opioids effective. I'm using it since 2 years now, daily (with the exception of the twoo weeks when I switched over to levo), and I haven't had to increase my dose even once, OIH went away, euphoria came back (ofc not to an opioid naive level, but that is not even necessary to treat depression effectively) and except itchiness I have no side effects whatsoever. Normal libido, no lethargy, no constipation, no nothing.

Could you talk a bit more about those 2 points? Does the dose reduction absolutely have to be gradual? Say, if I were to cut from 240mg codeine to 150mg codeine, would that still apply? Also, what is meant by "the G-Protein coupled signalling switches somewhat back from Gs to Gi"? I'm a bit dense as far as that goes

Also, no lethargy, no constipation? that sounds almost too good to be true. that alone is a very compelling reason to get into ULDN, tolerance cut&euphoria be damned. Too bad I can't really access naltrexone easily.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

I thought all opioid receptors are Gi/o coupled with no Gs so I'm not sure what that means either.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

So I personally see opioids as the best option when it comes to using a non-toxic antidepressant medication (but I'm open minded, so if you have a better argument, then I'm open for change). I'm gonna have to post some excerpts from opioids in mental illness here in the forum eventually. Too many people aren't aware of the incredibly versatile uses that opioids can have at different dosages.

I guess first thing I would recommend to someone is trying cannabis, and trying different ROAs and different ratios of cannabinoids. But to depressed users of cannabis I would first recommend trying to stop use. Cannabis isn't likely to help with any more intense depression but trying wont hurt people otherwise healthy. I would, as I know many psychiatrist who don't rely solely on drugs do so, recommend that person indulges in hedonistic stuff. By that I mean things like long walks true nature, followed by having a great meal at some restaurant by Adriatic sea, followed by skinny dipping at sunset. Add some weed to that and many people will have even better day. Prolong that long enough and for some Sun will come up. So I think for depression cannabis alone doesn't really work but for some might just be that drop needed to make existence bearable.

If weed doesn't help or person is looking for something with more lasting effects. If that person in question is pretty stable personality I would recommend psychedelics and emphatogens depending on how deep/high person is willing to go. If possible coupled with therapy or at least as good as it gets set & setting. While emphatogens are usually considered more for healing trauma and some other uses they can definitely help with depression too. That's anyway often connected to other mental problems where emphatogens are definitely showed to help. But I would strongly advise against MDMA, especially as initial stuff used. Much better option imho is αMT which I find to be wonderful antidepressant with minimal side-effects. I would suggest starting rather low, than having moderate to strong experience when ready and than maybe use it like it was originally intended, 5mg or so a day. I strongly believe are many better options than MDMA and would recommend MDMA only if person seems to handle really good some imo safer substances. Someone having rebound anxiety/depression from let's say bk-MDMA definitely shouldn't hope it would be better with MDMA, tho there are exceptions for sure.

If person is willing to try psychedelics I would recommend starting with something that has minimal body load and that could be considered candy-psychedelic in dose taken. As it's used quite extensively 2c-b would be obvious choice, low dose mescaline might work great too. If person feels that such exploration of psyche doses them good than gradual increase forward intense experience might proceed. And for that it would best be to stick with classic psychedelics like LSD, mushrooms, DMT and mescaline. This is path that can result in bad outcomes and I don't meant just during the experience but if done properly for most people it pretty safe. Obviously if person suffers from certain mental problems along depression this option could be a worst idea.

Out of pretty easy to find stuff that dose not produce strong high in lower doses I would first recommend harmine, harmaline and other related substances. Those alkaloids are very effective for some people and those who only get slight relief should explore other MAOi drugs. Also that option is great for anyone who doesn't look for any noticeable high as a way out of depression. While you can have a really intense experience with some MAOi drugs, most become effective for depression at much lower doses. Really great antidepressant is l-deprenyl. Another great advantage of l-deprenyl is that it repairs some damage done by other drugs and that makes it even better option for certain drug users, given they won't combine it with wrong stuff ofc.

Coming to classic stims, benzos, dissos and opiates is where many will find their panacea and many more think they found it until sobering up. Ofc in all those categories there are drugs that'll work great for some people but imo risks are significant and using them in a correct fashion is usually reserved for shorter periods. And with exception of dissos they are not, as far as I know, showed to really cure depression and are rather treating symptoms and usually stopping them follows with worse condition than before starting them. Dissos MIGHT be exception but I think that they rather have really long antidepressant effects than ability to treat it (semi)permanently like psychedelics. But it's still possible to have disso experience that on the mental level allows person to break trough problems and handle life better, it just seems less common and sometimes even when it seems so it's too often followed with addiction. Salvia and ibogain might be exception but I don't think either is known to be very effective for such use but I might be wrong.

Understand that I'm in no way claiming opiates ain't good for you personally. Hell I'm even pretty convinced they do myself too more good than damage and wouldn't mind at all having some opium, morphine or something. What I've seen almost countless times is opiate use going wrong. Often causes had nothing to do with legality of drugs as stuff used was either pharmaceutical or as good but surely it would be even worse if it wasn't so. Some people are simply more prone to personality changes be it from thing happening in the brain or around them.

 

[Jnowhere]

Fuckk subs I did heroin just to go to rehab to get prescribed subs then when I couldn’t get a doctor to prescribe them back home I was so sick I just used heroin to get off. I’m back on subs again for blues and since I got these I’ve heard about sublocade. It’s a prior authorization some kinda bs but it seems promising , get like 3shots over a period of time then 6 or 9 months later you no longer have any suboxone in you . Injectable taper

I don't mean this to be insulting: But who and why would anyone use heroin to get on subs? Not to mention rehab?

 

[Hexenstahl]

Could you talk a bit more about those 2 points? Does the dose reduction absolutely have to be gradual? Say, if I were to cut from 240mg codeine to 150mg codeine, would that still apply? Also, what is meant by "the G-Protein coupled signalling switches somewhat back from Gs to Gi"? I'm a bit dense as far as that goes

Also, no lethargy, no constipation? that sounds almost too good to be true. that alone is a very compelling reason to get into ULDN, tolerance cut&euphoria be damned. Too bad I can't really access naltrexone easily.

Hi Aqlis. The reason I said "gradual" is because jumps that are too big will lead to wd symptoms, that's all.

Regarding the G-Protein thing and how Naltrexone interacts with it, I have written about it and tried to explain it in this post here: https://bluelight.org/xf/threads/methadone-to-oxy-equivalent.934232/page-2#post-15911009

I hope that helps. Let me know if you still got questions. ULDN really does work. It's not only proven by studies and medical literature like "Opioide in der Medizin" by Enno Freye, but you can also find a ton of anecdotal evidence of its efficacy on reddit. I'm willing to help anyone who wants to benefit from ULDN. Have you already checked out the thread that I have written about it?

 

[Aqlis]

Hi Aqlis. The reason I said "gradual" is because jumps that are too big will lead to wd symptoms, that's all
Regarding the G-Protein thing and how Naltrexone interacts with it, I have written about it and tried to explain it in this post here: https://bluelight.org/xf/threads/methadone-to-oxy-equivalent.934232/page-2#post-15911009

I hope that helps. Let me know if you still got questions. ULDN really does work. It's not only proven by studies and medical literature like "Opioide in der Medizin" by Enno Freye, but you can also find a ton of anecdotal evidence of its efficacy on reddit. I'm willing to help anyone who wants to benefit from ULDN. Have you already checked out the thread that I have written about it?

No worries. I usually only do about 3-5 days on with the rare 10-15 days when I get lots of money randomly lol. But majority of the time after a codeine binge I get 0 or only the mildest WD, it's like I skip straight ahead to PAWS where it's just mental and cravings without the other debilitating fuckery. Currently on involuntary 3-day tolerance break (forgot pharmacies are closed due to holiday today ), so when I start using again monday I'll do 150mg instead. For economic reasons, cutting down from eating 16 to 10 pills each use and limiting side effects. If it ends up also makes the codeine a better painkiller/more euphoric then that'd be just *chef's kiss*.

I'm actually a huge fan of the ULDN thread ever since cdin put me onto the secret sauce lmao. I've pinned it (along with the info about avoiding withdrawal via ULDN) in our #opioids channel on the BL discord&bring it up often when people ask about opioid potentiation. Thanks for the link to an easy to follow explanation of how/why it works too, I've added that as well. I'm mostly awed about the lack of side effects that seem to plague the vast majority of opi users, since I had no doubts about the tolerance reduction properties. I need to look into getting some but it's hard due to my basically pathological avoidance of doctors&medical services, limits my options to sketchy online vendors.

 

[Jnowhere]

Morpine er pills, don't do shit for getting a buzz or depression. I used them a long time with Oxy for pain and they barely helped. IV morphine helps with pain but not depression, at least for me. That is why Oxy is so addictive. When I first started taking it years ago there was not only a total disappearance of my severe and very major depression, but actual happiness for a while
That goes away over time though. I am careful with my pills because I am in legit physical pain and wd's on top of that would be a disaster. However, on a rare occasion when I have taken more, because I have memory issues, was a severe drunk, even taking more, will not get into details, the euphoric an anti depressant qualities were not increased very much if at all. Long term use kills that effect. Even when on a rarer than rare occasion a large benzo boost didn't help much if at all. Opiods or opiates lose that anti depressant feeling rather quickly. Taking large doses may help but that fades and makes things worse, like running out of pills. Members of BL often run out and turn to fent, which from what I understand only helps wd's but can kill, raises tolerance sky high and can lead to fent addiction. I have never gone near heroin. Not judging( no crying babies) but that is gone too, old Joe has effectively let them the cartels get a strong hold in so may cities. I would take big pharma over the cartels any day. Now those blue fentanyl mystery pills are common.
It has only gotten worse here in America under Biden. I have to take piss test every month, however everywhere month I have a phone visit, so I am spared that. Our government, here in USA, is fighting the war on drugs by making people with legit problems use, less and less. Don't give me any BS, it got really bad, in 2022, Thank you Joe Biden. Fent is cheap and deadly and people like me with legit issues, keep getting screwed by the FDA and Biden administration. This really started getting bad, with Obama. Oh but weed is legal in many places. There are billboards near me advertising pot shops. Weed does little for severe chronic( bad pun) pain. It is the same old bullshit, only worse with the left in charge, in terms of painkillers. Go to pain management doctors. I will not get into it but, I have a great story on that. Many are no help. Unless you are dying of cancer, you are screwed. The doctors are being intimidated by FDA and who does the head of FDA answer to?
The drug cartels for the first time have a stronghold in almost all major cities now. It just isn't gangs, it is a take over that has happened in last 2 years or so. That is why those blue fent pills are everywhere, but I can't get a higher dose of oxy for my pain. I admit I got one more oxycodone pill a day after giving up 60mg of morphine a day. That left wing bitch in Lansing has to sign all bullshit state laws here. And allow new more restrictive policies.
My doctor admits if this were years ago he would give me a lot more for the pain. They keep lowering it while the fent pours in over the boarder. Who suffers, every law abidding citizen without stage 4 cancer in long term chronic pain. Some may have a little better
Maybe some states are more leininant, but my state is blue, for now.
Big Prama caused problems a couple in particular, but the deathtoll is small compared to the fentanyl deaths. That comes from Mexico and China and corrupt Joe and his rich druggie son can't afford to piss of China or Mexico.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

I've done everything from cannabis & ecstasy to cocaine & meth to shrooms & acid, etc..

While all of these drugs have a purpose & can help me or other people in various ways from stopping suicidal thoughts to just having a nice mental vacation...

I still stand by the fact that opioids help me the most. They are something I can take every day & even if I don't get too much of a "high" from them after awhile, they still do something inside me that quiets my self destructive nature.

I can thanks opioids for keeping me off alcohol the past 7 years. That's a huge victory for me & better for my long term health.
And alcohol greatly exaggerates my depression to the point where I've tried to kill myself while drunk so times. So something like that is completely legal & advertised in my face everywhere, but I'm still battling people online who think opioids are the devil. Why should depressed people have access to alcohol but not things that help them? Society is so dumb. lol

Totally agree with opioid rotation like @Hexenstahl mentioned,
Some opioids barely share cross tolerance, so if a person loses their effect or are having side effects / whatever, if they had the option to switch to a different opioid, it would solve so many of those issues. Even my sub doc thinks it's kinda ridiculous that they can give me tons of bupe (which is also an opioid) but it's highly frowned upon for me to take virtually any other opioid for the same reason. It's ridiculous & arbitrary.

 

[Jnowhere]

Believe it or not I can thank opiods for keeping my off alcohol for almost 7 years too
And on Benzos

 

[Hexenstahl]

I guess first thing I would recommend to someone is trying cannabis, and trying different ROAs and different ratios of cannabinoids. But to depressed users of cannabis I would first recommend trying to stop use. Cannabis isn't likely to help with any more intense depression but trying wont hurt people otherwise healthy. I would, as I know many psychiatrist who don't rely solely on drugs do so, recommend that person indulges in hedonistic stuff. By that I mean things like long walks true nature, followed by having a great meal at some restaurant by Adriatic sea, followed by skinny dipping at sunset. Add some weed to that and many people will have even better day. Prolong that long enough and for some Sun will come up. So I think for depression cannabis alone doesn't really work but for some might just be that drop needed to make existence bearable.

If weed doesn't help or person is looking for something with more lasting effects. If that person in question is pretty stable personality I would recommend psychedelics and emphatogens depending on how deep/high person is willing to go. If possible coupled with therapy or at least as good as it gets set & setting. While emphatogens are usually considered more for healing trauma and some other uses they can definitely help with depression too. That's anyway often connected to other mental problems where emphatogens are definitely showed to help. But I would strongly advise against MDMA, especially as initial stuff used. Much better option imho is αMT which I find to be wonderful antidepressant with minimal side-effects. I would suggest starting rather low, than having moderate to strong experience when ready and than maybe use it like it was originally intended, 5mg or so a day. I strongly believe are many better options than MDMA and would recommend MDMA only if person seems to handle really good some imo safer substances. Someone having rebound anxiety/depression from let's say bk-MDMA definitely shouldn't hope it would be better with MDMA, tho there are exceptions for sure.

If person is willing to try psychedelics I would recommend starting with something that has minimal body load and that could be considered candy-psychedelic in dose taken. As it's used quite extensively 2c-b would be obvious choice, low dose mescaline might work great too. If person feels that such exploration of psyche doses them good than gradual increase forward intense experience might proceed. And for that it would best be to stick with classic psychedelics like LSD, mushrooms, DMT and mescaline. This is path that can result in bad outcomes and I don't meant just during the experience but if done properly for most people it pretty safe. Obviously if person suffers from certain mental problems along depression this option could be a worst idea.

Out of pretty easy to find stuff that dose not produce strong high in lower doses I would first recommend harmine, harmaline and other related substances. Those alkaloids are very effective for some people and those who only get slight relief should explore other MAOi drugs. Also that option is great for anyone who doesn't look for any noticeable high as a way out of depression. While you can have a really intense experience with some MAOi drugs, most become effective for depression at much lower doses. Really great antidepressant is l-deprenyl. Another great advantage of l-deprenyl is that it repairs some damage done by other drugs and that makes it even better option for certain drug users, given they won't combine it with wrong stuff ofc.

Coming to classic stims, benzos, dissos and opiates is where many will find their panacea and many more think they found it until sobering up. Ofc in all those categories there are drugs that'll work great for some people but imo risks are significant and using them in a correct fashion is usually reserved for shorter periods. And with exception of dissos they are not, as far as I know, showed to really cure depression and are rather treating symptoms and usually stopping them follows with worse condition than before starting them. Dissos MIGHT be exception but I think that they rather have really long antidepressant effects than ability to treat it (semi)permanently like psychedelics. But it's still possible to have disso experience that on the mental level allows person to break trough problems and handle life better, it just seems less common and sometimes even when it seems so it's too often followed with addiction. Salvia and ibogain might be exception but I don't think either is known to be very effective for such use but I might be wrong.

Understand that I'm in no way claiming opiates ain't good for you personally. Hell I'm even pretty convinced they do myself too more good than damage and wouldn't mind at all having some opium, morphine or something. What I've seen almost countless times is opiate use going wrong. Often causes had nothing to do with legality of drugs as stuff used was either pharmaceutical or as good but surely it would be even worse if it wasn't so. Some people are simply more prone to personality changes be it from thing happening in the brain or around them.

Some pretty good arguments, but the issue with psychedelics (and I count modern weed to psychedelics. There is actually a good article on this topic in the psychopharmacology journal I can refer you to if you like) is that they can be too unpredictable. You can't control what will happen when using them and if things go south the patient very likely ends up in a worse position than before.

I've heard some good things about microdosing them, but I need to see more empirical evidence until I'm convinced of their large scale use.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

Empirical evidence seems to show there is no benefit to microdosing compared to placebo

 

[Hexenstahl]

Morpine er pills, don't do shit for getting a buzz or depression. I used them a long time with Oxy for pain and they barely helped. IV morphine helps with pain but not depression, at least for me. That is why Oxy is so addictive. When I first started taking it years ago there was not only a total disappearance of my severe and very major depression, but actual happiness for a while
That goes away over time though. I am careful with my pills because I am in legit physical pain and wd's on top of that would be a disaster. However, on a rare occasion when I have taken more, because I have memory issues, was a severe drunk, even taking more, will not get into details, the euphoric an anti depressant qualities were not increased very much if at all. Long term use kills that effect. Even when on a rarer than rare occasion a large benzo boost didn't help much if at all. Opiods or opiates lose that anti depressant feeling rather quickly. Taking large doses may help but that fades and makes things worse, like running out of pills. Members of BL often run out and turn to fent, which from what I understand only helps wd's but can kill, raises tolerance sky high and can lead to fent addiction. I have never gone near heroin. Not judging( no crying babies) but that is gone too, old Joe has effectively let them the cartels get a strong hold in so may cities. I would take big pharma over the cartels any day. Now those blue fentanyl mystery pills are common.
It has only gotten worse here in America under Biden. I have to take piss test every month, however everywhere month I have a phone visit, so I am spared that. Our government, here in USA, is fighting the war on drugs by making people with legit problems use, less and less. Don't give me any BS, it got really bad, in 2022, Thank you Joe Biden. Fent is cheap and deadly and people like me with legit issues, keep getting screwed by the FDA and Biden administration. This really started getting bad, with Obama. Oh but weed is legal in many places. There are billboards near me advertising pot shops. Weed does little for severe chronic( bad pun) pain. It is the same old bullshit, only worse with the left in charge, in terms of painkillers. Go to pain management doctors. I will not get into it but, I have a great story on that. Many are no help. Unless you are dying of cancer, you are screwed. The doctors are being intimidated by FDA and who does the head of FDA answer to?
The drug cartels for the first time have a stronghold in almost all major cities now. It just isn't gangs, it is a take over that has happened in last 2 years or so. That is why those blue fent pills are everywhere, but I can't get a higher dose of oxy for my pain. I admit I got one more oxycodone pill a day after giving up 60mg of morphine a day. That left wing bitch in Lansing has to sign all bullshit state laws here. And allow new more restrictive policies.
My doctor admits if this were years ago he would give me a lot more for the pain. They keep lowering it while the fent pours in over the boarder. Who suffers, every law abidding citizen without stage 4 cancer in long term chronic pain. Some may have a little better
Maybe some states are more leininant, but my state is blue, for now.
Big Prama caused problems a couple in particular, but the deathtoll is small compared to the fentanyl deaths. That comes from Mexico and China and corrupt Joe and his rich druggie son can't afford to piss of China or Mexico.

I have once shared a video where an ex lapd officer admitted how the CIA tried to recruit him into bringing crack into the country back in the 80s. Gary Webb's investigative journalism has revealed the role of the CIA behind the crack epidemic so I'm sure they have their hands in the fentanyl epidemic too. This is a problem that is beyond the stupid left right paradigm. It's a systemic issue. Doesn't matter if Sleepy Joe, Obummer, Trump the manchild or Bush the intellectually handicapped is in office. None of these people are anti-prohibition. Forget about the politicians. They aren't the ones in power. It's the corporate hand and the intel behind them that's running the show.

 

[Jnowhere]

Would you like me to remind you of some of your past leaders? And the evil their organizations did?

 

[Hexenstahl]

Empirical evidence seems to show there is now benefit to microdosing compared to placebo

Then this topic seems to be settled...

 

[Hexenstahl]

Would you like me to remind you of some of your past leaders? And the evil their organizations did?

MY leaders??? Also, whataboutism doesn't falsify what I have said...

 

[Jnowhere]

I could start with Kaiser Wilhelm and work MY up or (figuratively speaking down)

Then this topic seems to be settled...

I thought so, I can trash my presidents because I am an American, a taxpayer and a voter.

 

[Jnowhere]

88

 

[Jnowhere]

I thought so, I am a history buff and I get surly when my meds kick in. Especially when Europeans go after my country and Europe has more skeletons in its closet

 

[Hexenstahl]

@Jnowhere
Why are you quoting my response to someguyontheinternet regarding microdosing? That's another topic and has nothing to do with what we were talking about.