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Plants for energy

dopamimetic

dopamimetic

Bluelighter
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
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Well I am withdrawing from morphine and possibly also venlafaxine (have taken this stuff for about 10 years, solely due to dependence), and amph/dissociatives in background and while it's not as bad as projectile vomiting or cold shivers etc. thanks to memantine, I just lay in bed bored to hell without any energy ... caffeine doesn't really help. Any ideas besides the obvious coca leaves or amphetamine? Would modafinil help maybe? Or real plants like rhoidola rosea etc... kratom??
 
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White vein kratom help my mood and energy levels. On days I take white, I will usually take 5 grams of my red maeng da and 5 grams of white Thai.

There is a plant ma huang that is banned here in the US, but I hear that there are teas and powders available for purchase online. I have actually ordered ma huang seeds online and they passed through customs fine. Ma huang is an ephedra plant, it provides fantastic energy and has mood boosting qualities.
 
Just checked and it seems you can grow Ma Huang (the ephedra plant) for personal use.
 
Maca is a pretty decent stimulant in my opinion, it can be subtle but will get you going. It’s not very euphoric.

It comes in various colored roots. The 3 most common ones are; yellow, red, and black. Yellow is the most common one you’ll find in grocery stores. Black is the rarest. Each one has different properties. I’ve tried yellow and black.

I’ve used powdered yellow from a few different brands. The black root was whole.

Usually it takes a few hours to kick in, about 90-120min. Once it does it can range from a low level energy to anxiety inducing. Too much causes anxiety in me and those I know.

It also greatly enhances libido at times.

-GC
 
Ma Huang is more properly known as Ephedra sinica, but it turns out that there are many other species in the Ephedra family... some even native to the USA, where it is known as "Mormon tea".

If you want a more reproducible effect taking some pharmaceutical ephedrine should do the same. Really it's no better than taking amphetamine, mechanistically speaking.

Yohimbine / yohimbe in VERY small doses may work similarly; it's an adrenergic autoreceptor antagonist - actually acting as an agonist, acutely affecting adrenaline activation, aiding arousal. (yes, 15-word alliteration streak)
 
This is not a suggestion of any kind, but I just read about the effects of l-dopa (found in mucuna pruriens herbal products), and it seems to be identified as partly amphetamine-like by rodents when given with a peripheral decarboxylase inhibitor (the 5-HTP amino acid, also sold as a supplement, has this effect). Levodopa with a COMT inhibitor even causes a conditioned place preference, but the flavonoid COMT inhibitors in green tea extracts aren't necessarily effective enough for this. I didn't find information on whether l-dopa causes a leftward shift in the amphetamine CPP dose-response curve, if it does then it possibly also increases the CNS stimulant effect of ephedrine.

I'm getting some mucuna pruriens extract in a few days, and I will test what the effect feels like.
 
I've had excellent luck with Sida Cordifolia tea as a nice, herbal stimulant. Potency varies WIDELY between batches, like most natural psychoactives though, so don't give up if you don't get strong enough effects on your first try. I prefer it to ephedra, it's a much smoother experience.
 
Anonymous Dissident said:
I've had excellent luck with Sida Cordifolia tea as a nice, herbal stimulant. Potency varies WIDELY between batches, like most natural psychoactives though, so don't give up if you don't get strong enough effects on your first try. I prefer it to ephedra, it's a much smoother experience.
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Fantastic to know. Thank you
 
Thanks for the input. @jose ribas da silva, do you have experience with hibiscus tea? Am really interested in this, as I am struggling now for fucking years (almost 10) with quitting venlafaxine. Granted I haven't tried all possibile options like switching to fluoxetine but as after just one day without venla I feel such heavy sadness I guess my serotonin system is heavily fucked up.. only thing that was able to substitute were dissociatives (dxm, obviously as its a SNRI, and dck etc..). It's very different but the intensity is almost comparable to the morphine... cause with that one, memantine & loperamide, maybe amph for energy are able to mask the withdrawal completely but for venlafaxine there is no such thing ... a hell of brain zaps, tension, sadness, hopelessness, anxiety, low energy etc...

That's what I found:
.... Antidepressant-like activity of anthocyanidins from Hibiscus rosa-sinensis flowers in tail suspension test and forced swim test
.... In vivo antianxiety and antidepressant activity of Hibiscus sabdariffa calyx extracts
.... Antidepressant-like effects of methanol extract of Hibiscus tiliaceus flowers in mice


Ok, my search for plants failed today and I got modafinil which appears to help, and a doc recommending me to taper the morphine with tramadol (oh yeah, another venlafaxine relative), both OTC here so plenty of supply available yet I feel at least the tramadol isn't the answer... I will try to get hibiscus tea and sida cordifolia, as I even have a script for lisdexamphetamine but no fucking pharmacy around here carries it or is able to order, plain dexamph doesn't exist as Rx, and methylphenidate... well had I known that, maybe I would have opted for it, but I dislike ritalin, it's so jittery, caffine-overdose like and gave me heartburn once...

Other option would be bupropion, but my understanding is that during opioid withdrawal your (nor)epinephrine system is fucked up and there's already too much of these transmitters around, causing things like yawning, runny nose, tension, discomfort, anxiety (granted, memantine takes much of that away) -- then the best solution would be to get clonidine, yet when I already have no energy I don't think that one will do any good?

Oh, the kratom was something I've thought of myself of course. Maybe I'll just get some white vein kratom for the meantime.... but still, if hibiscus helps me off venlafaxine, I'll be seriously astonished.

@polymath: Have been interested in peripheral carboxylase inhibitors before, to turn 5-htp into an effective antidepressant as for me severe gastric disturbance begins at dosages lower than required for decent central activity (it works though, was able to completely ameliorate venlafaxine withdrawal with it but ended up with severe nausea, diarrhea etc) ... have asked a bunch of pharmacies whether they could get me carbidopa or similar, but even with prescription they say it's not possible and available only in combination with l-dopa - a compound I have avoided up to now, the side effects sound terrible but maybe this applies primarily to people with Parkinson's and a healthy dopamine system will re-regulate much faster and easilier?
I know that dopamine agonists have effects beyond what's popular knowledge (guess part of the benefits I get from memantine are indeed from its d2 agonism) and many textbooks deny that so who knows ...

Rhodiola Rosea anyone? I remember taking one capsule of extract and feeling an uncomfortably strong stimulation, but that was long long ago. Some years ago I've acquired some again and felt little to no effect.
Schisandra Chinensis is also said to be a general topic and energizing, as is the Noni fruit (morinda citrifolia, interestingly a coffee relative) that's even a MAO inhibitor and I'm going to try it as soon as I get one ...
 
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dopamimetic said:
@polymath: Have been interested in peripheral carboxylase inhibitors before, to turn 5-htp into an effective antidepressant as for me severe gastric disturbance begins at dosages lower than required for decent central activity (it works though, was able to completely ameliorate venlafaxine withdrawal with it but ended up with severe nausea, diarrhea etc) ... have asked a bunch of pharmacies whether they could get me carbidopa or similar, but even with prescription they say it's not possible and available only in combination with l-dopa - a compound I have avoided up to now, the side effects sound terrible but maybe this applies primarily to people with Parkinson's and a healthy dopamine system will re-regulate much faster and easilier?
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I think venlafaxine can increase the side effects of 5-HTP, so that could be the reason for the gastric disturbance. It competes for the same decarboxylase with l-dopa, so a large dose prevents dopamine formation outside the CNS. I'll have to test whether it has side effects on me. I also have disulfiram, which inhibits dopamine beta-hydroxylase and probably changes the effect of l-dopa in some way (not necassarily in a good way because it's also known to make the effect of cocaine more unpleasant).
 
Interesting, didn't know that venlafaxine is competitive on decarboxylase - but wouldn't that indicate that taking 5-htp together with venlafaxine would make a bigger portion of it reaching the brain (not counting any effects of venlafaxine for now)??

Yeah, read about disulfiram effects on dopamine metabolism before but this is some stuff too I didn't want to touch yet even when I don't drink..

Modafinil works great for the anhedonia at the moment :)
 
I meant that the 5-HTP is a decarboxylase inhibitor like carbidopa, and can therefore prevent side effects of l-dopa:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Parkinson’s disease: carbidopa, nausea, and dyskinesia

When -dopa use began in the early 1960s for the treatment of Parkinson’s disease, nausea and reversible dyskinesias were experienced as continuing side effects. Carbidopa or benserazide was added to -dopa in 1975 solely to control nausea. Subsequent ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
It is documented that 5-HTP controls l-dopa-induced nausea, utilizing the same basic chemical mechanism as carbidopa and benserazide: AADC inhibition. Carbidopa and benserazide inhibition is irreversible while 5-HTP inhibition is reversible. The use of 5-HTP is superior, since under proper administration it is a nutrient that does not deplete systems or induce abnormal system functions when properly administered.
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The reason why 5-HTP could cause more side effects when taken with venlafaxine, is that both are serotonergic. There are some reports of serotonin syndrome from combining SSRIs with tryptophan or 5-HTP.
 
Yerba Mate is good for pretty mellow long lasting sort of energy. Great for rainy days or sitting in traffic without going crazy or feeling "confined." Actually it's a great stimulating herb to use for most indoor work that requires mental focus, not physical endurance. Coffee would be a better choice for more physical activities like hiking or yardwork.
 
modafinil is usually great for fatigue and lack of energy, and perhaps a small mood boost, but nothing legal would substitute for a pharmaceutical stimulant.
 
Carbidopa and benserazide inhibition is irreversible while 5-HTP inhibition is reversible.
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This makes me think that 5-HTP is not per se a aromatic amino acid decarboxylase inhibitor. It's just a competitive substrate i.e. DOPA decraboxylase preferentially binds 5-HTP over L-DOPA.

Sida Cordifolia is active because it's a source of ephedrine alkaloids.

Hibiscus tea, while a fixture of Latin American cuisine, doesn't have any pharmacologically active species in it that I know of. It does taste nice though.

Another mildly sedative herb might be Melissa officinalis or lemon balm. It smells pleasant and presumably has a mild sedative effect. W: Nicholas Culpeper considered lemon balm to be ruled by Jupiter in Cancer, and suggested it to be used for weak stomachs, to cause the heart to become merry, to help digestion, to open obstructions of the brain, and to expel melancholy vapors from the heart and arteries.[...] The alchemist Paracelsus believed that lemon balm had the power to restore health and vitality. Traditionally, an alchemical tincture of lemon balm was the first tincture an aspiring alchemist made.

I feel such heavy sadness I guess my serotonin system is heavily fucked up.
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I would attribute the lack of energy/motivation to a norepinephrine disturbance rather than serotonin. After all, venlafaxine is a SNRI not SSRI.
 
Took 100 mg of 5-HTP and less than half a teaspoon of 4x mucuna pruriens extract about 40 minutes ago. This made me feel nervous really quickly, like ephedrine or methcathinone would. Someone may actually think this is recreational in some way, but there's a bit too much of the 'wired' feeling to me, especially when you don't know if it can provoke a panic attack.
 
Yeah I don't like that feeling either I guess.. the good stims are anxiolytic at the same time. Had my share of panic attacks from NE with DXM ...

But @sekio you might be partially right. I always thought that venla wasn't too heavy on NE as it doesn't feel so, compared to DXM or bupropion, even desmethylvenlafaxine ... but apparently it still has one of the worst withdrawl syndroms among all antidepressants. Consider switching to fluoxetine or fluvoxamine (interested in the sigma agonism of that one, as antagonism of sertraline was heavy shit) yet my hunch is that these chemicals hit some unrelated receptor like something opioid, at last it's a tramadol relative and naloxone has shown to partially inhibit the AD effect from venlafaxine and mirtazapine if I recall correctly. I don't give much on naloxone tests either as this chem had horrible effects in me when I was opioid naive tho.

Currently I am pretty ok. The hefty dose of 160mg memantine appears to have fixed much, now I really feel small doses of tramadol again so guess the opioid thing is over and modafinil helps with clarity. But need to find a way off the venlafaxine.
 
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