• MDMA &
    Empathogenic
    Drugs

    Welcome Guest!
  • MDMA Moderators:

MDMA Recovery (Stories & Support - 4)

Status
Not open for further replies.
fnono33 said:
Does the brain ever just want to rest? it seems like it would let me sleep naturally. I have attivan. I could try that. Maybe I'll try the propanol if I don't get rest tonight.
Click to expand...

I think the ruminating depression mindset turns on circuits that are counter productive to sleep - eventually the homeostatic drive, the need to sleep, will outweigh these circuits but it's better that you get 8 hours of unfragmented sleep every night. Mindfulness can turn off these ruminating circuits but it can take practice to get good at meditation and then it can take more time for the brain to adjust and start trimming those ruminating depression circuits, at which point rest will start to come naturally.

Ativan would be okay to try. I'd like for you to try and report back. Keep propranolol in mind especially for panic attacks, but it can offset melatonin production so take an extended release melatonin with it.

But I would probably try Citalopram and then Cymbalta or amitryptyline (amitryptyline being more commonly used for sleep, it should be cheap as well) before embarking on long term Klonopin.
 
I was prescribed Propranolol for panic attacks way back in January and found it gave me very unsettling lucid dreams. Was that something to do with melatonin or passing the blood-brain barrier?
 
martainnn said:
Glad to hear youre feeling better dude :)
Click to expand...

Cheers. How is your recovery going? I'm much less fixated on ruminating thoughts now and find sleep is generally improving, although I have made a bad habit of staying up late. (I still feel abit nervous going to bed early) Can't remember the last time I had a panic attack, which means its been a good while. Things are looking up for a change.
 
PillsAndKills said:
I was prescribed Propranolol for panic attacks way back in January and found it gave me very unsettling lucid dreams. Was that something to do with melatonin or passing the blood-brain barrier?
Click to expand...

Could have been due to effects on the adrenergic receptors in the brain itself.
 
My visuals seem to be getting worse, not horrible but a couple more floaters and also some heavy glaring off shiny objects or eater. Tension headache and faceworms and tinnitus too seem a bit worse, and a few occasional starbursts. wonder if it's the remeron? Seems it's highly advised NOT to take it if you have any HPPD effects since it works on the HT2A receptor which is responsible for HPPD...I think I read that . Sometimes I feel this is the only place I can come for understanding, the rest of the world is clueless it seems and thinks I'm crazy.
 
I wouldn't let visual symptoms be the deciding factor on whether or not you continue mirtazapine, but it's always okay to re-evaluate your situation and judge whether things are overall better or worse after a med. Dose is okay to re-evaluate as well. Mirtazapine can be a very different med at different doses.
 
So I took 1mg of Ativan last night and a 5mg of melatonin and got the best night of sleep I've had since this started. Hopefully that'll make up for some of the sleep debt I've accumulated. Feeling the best today that I ever have.
 
fnono33 said:
So I took 1mg of Ativan last night and a 5mg of melatonin and got the best night of sleep I've had since this started. Hopefully that'll make up for some of the sleep debt I've accumulated. Feeling the best today that I ever have.
Click to expand...

I hope this gives you some idea of how important good sleep is and how much good sleep can reverse such awful feelings.. In my opinion long term mindfulness is the path to long term good sleep.
 
Yeah agreed. I started going to bed later the week before my 2 day long panic episode and I think that's what cost me. More sleep=feeling better.
 
[mention]Cotcha Yankinov[/mention] Can I ask your advice?

I am one of those unfortuate individuals possibly in the grip of a LTC i.e. feeling very low most days among countless other symptoms.

Though I am trying to go the mindfulness and exercise route, one night last week I cracked again and took ~2mg of Mirtazapine for several nights running.

After a particularly good sleep, I awoke groggily and suffered the usual crippling derealization throughout the day however it was significantly less pronounced than usual and in the evening, I was bizzarely entirely back to 'my old self' and the feeling of general good health and well being I have so long yearned for returned.

Therefore these are my questions:

How is it possible to be 2mgs of antidepressant away from normality yet having been so severely distressed/disturbed/depressed every hour of the day for the past 9 months?

Therefore I wonder is it wise to keep taking 2mg Mirtazapine and taper out or revert back to the natural route and remember the glimpse of hope offered by the anti-d?

I would very much appreciate any comment on my predicament.

Thanks in advance.
 
Last edited:
Just to clarify - 2mg of Mirtazapine? Even a pediatric dose is like 15mg, although I take about half that for sleep occasionally and still feel a fair amount of effects, especially grogginess (it's mostly the antihistamine effects that you feel at the very lowest doses). But the neurotransmitter histamine facilitates a wakefulness projection out of a structure called the tuberomammillary nucleus that reaches far and wide, it's conceivable that blockade of histamine could allow things to reset a bit (for neuroplasticity to do its thing and for synapses to rearrange) or it could've been the good sleep as well (or maybe a combination).

If you're actually at 2mg and it's working I would just stay there for a little while and see how things go. It's an extremely low dose, and Mirtazapine is an inverse agonist at the H1 histamine receptor which means that it just causes the receptor to disappear essentially, so it's not like it's temporarily blocked and that a mass of H1 receptors await you if you taper. That being said there can still be downstream compensations but I wouldn't worry about that right now. I would keep on the Mirtazapine and let things solidify for at least a week and then consider tapering.
 
Cotcha Yankinov said:
I wouldn't let visual symptoms be the deciding factor on whether or not you continue mirtazapine, but it's always okay to re-evaluate your situation and judge whether things are overall better or worse after a med. Dose is okay to re-evaluate as well. Mirtazapine can be a very different med at different doses.
Click to expand...

I've found I sleep best at 15mg, 7.5mg works but not as good. Although these are low doses, they are still probably messing with my serotonin since my system is so sensitive. Visuals are worst when I don't sleep good. I just hate relying on it to sleep, and fear it will just make things worse when I come off it, especially the HPPD. I will admit I'm better on it for sure....granted I haven't tried coming off it so who knows?
 
2mg? Wow you must have a really sensitive system! I found the groggy feeling in the AM went away after a few weeks. I went up to 15 mg for 2 weeks from 7.5, and I was feeling pretty good (minus the visuals and face crawling and muscle twitches), so I tapered to 7.5 mg the last 3 days and things have gone down hill a bit. I'm going to try the 7.5 for a week and see if my sleep stabilizes . They should make a mirtazapine w/o and the AD effects and just the slept effects....probably would sell very well lol.
 
ADubbs - time spent sleeping and feeling okay is good progress.

Sleep deprivation worsening HPPD symptoms temporarily is a very common report, something I share as well. I've found it takes long term time spent in a non-hyper excitable for visual symptoms to calm down. Mindfulness and good sleep basically. Of course mindfulness leads to good sleep.

There are some other meds that have antihistamine effects but they have other effects as well, off the top of my head I can't remember any that are more selective for the H1 histamine receptor. That being said I'm under the impression tolerance builds pretty quickly to those particular sedating effects. Clonidine is good for sleep and panic attacks and is worth thinking about, it's mechanism of action is fairly opposite to one of Mirtazapine's (adrenergic receptor effects).
 
Last edited:
Cotcha Yankinov said:
Just to clarify - 2mg of Mirtazapine? Even a pediatric dose is like 15mg, although I take about half that for sleep occasionally and still feel a fair amount of effects, especially grogginess (it's mostly the antihistamine effects that you feel at the very lowest doses). But the neurotransmitter histamine facilitates a wakefulness projection out of a structure called the tuberomammillary nucleus that reaches far and wide, it's conceivable that blockade of histamine could allow things to reset a bit (for neuroplasticity to do its thing and for synapses to rearrange) or it could've been the good sleep as well (or maybe a combination).

If you're actually at 2mg and it's working I would just stay there for a little while and see how things go. It's an extremely low dose, and Mirtazapine is an inverse agonist at the H1 histamine receptor which means that it just causes the receptor to disappear essentially, so it's not like it's temporarily blocked and that a mass of H1 receptors await you if you taper. That being said there can still be downstream compensations but I wouldn't worry about that right now. I would keep on the Mirtazapine and let things solidify for at least a week and then consider tapering.
Click to expand...

Yes, definitely 2mg if not less as I split a 15mg into eighths and took the smallest fragments. Interesting, I guess it is a low dose but it still feels like cheating, ultimately I want to be free from dependence on any drug, even if it means living in a less than optimal state. I'm using it to try and assess my current brain chemistry more than anything. I mean, if 2mg is this effective then what are the implications? It could be the so called receptor downregulation? Although would seem to suggest that the receptors aren't capable of housing serotonin yet my responsiveness to Mirtazapine would indicate otherwise. What do you think? Perhaps my brain is simply out of homeostasis, is this the HPA axis dysfunction you refer to?


ADubbs said:
2mg? Wow you must have a really sensitive system! I found the groggy feeling in the AM went away after a few weeks. I went up to 15 mg for 2 weeks from 7.5, and I was feeling pretty good (minus the visuals and face crawling and muscle twitches), so I tapered to 7.5 mg the last 3 days and things have gone down hill a bit. I'm going to try the 7.5 for a week and see if my sleep stabilizes . They should make a mirtazapine w/o and the AD effects and just the slept effects....probably would sell very well lol.
Click to expand...

I know right? Maybe this would explain my love for MDMA. There is such a thing as sedating-antihistamines if you're interested in turning away from the anti depressant route?
 
Last edited:
Your receptors and serotonin stores (vesicles) are certainly working just fine, they are recycled all the time so no need to worry about permanent effects on them.

It could be that disruption of the histamine wakefulness projection has allowed some maladaptive synapses to atrophy. It could also be that at your dose Mirtazapine is starting to block 5HT2A and other serotonin receptors, or that another effect like that is starting to kick in. Please note that 5HT2A is not a particularly beneficial serotonin receptor, you really don't want too much 5HT2A activation - same with 5HT2C.

Another option is just that there was some synaptic reorganization with your night of good sleep.

I would try to meditate. Practice mindfulness everyday and see how things go. The headspace app I highly recommend.
 
Cotcha Yankinov said:
Your receptors and serotonin stores (vesicles) are certainly working just fine, they are recycled all the time so no need to worry about permanent effects on them.

It could be that disruption of the histamine wakefulness projection has allowed some maladaptive synapses to atrophy. It could also be that at your dose Mirtazapine is starting to block 5HT2A and other serotonin receptors, or that another effect like that is starting to kick in. Please note that 5HT2A is not a particularly beneficial serotonin receptor, you really don't want too much 5HT2A activation - same with 5HT2C.

Another option is just that there was some synaptic reorganization with your night of good sleep.

I would try to meditate. Practice mindfulness everyday and see how things go. The headspace app I highly recommend.
Click to expand...


Hmm....so is the blocking mechanism from remeron on 5ht2a good? Or bad? Just a bit confused I'm new to all this!
 
Yes, selective 5HT2A blockers are very good for insomnia and desensitization of 5HT2A and 5HT2C is an important component of long term antidepressant administration. Too much 5HT2A/5HT2C activation is indeed a bad thing.
 
Cotcha Yankinov said:
Yes, selective 5HT2A blockers are very good for insomnia and desensitization of 5HT2A and 5HT2C is an important component of long term antidepressant administration. Too much 5HT2A/5HT2C activation is indeed a bad thing.
Click to expand...

Thanks cotcha, you're very knowledgeable and I know many people on here appreciate it, I certainly do. What made you stay away from ADs? I would have thought that after 2 years of only sleeping 2 hours you would have looked for something to help!

I went to my GP again today for a follow up and explained what was going on....and she goes "I wonder if there's something psychological going on"...lol, obviously! She's then asks me "well what do you want to do? ". I knew then she was at a loss. My MRI came back normal apparently, but I'm still meeting with a neurologist in a month....for what it's worth. Maybe an EEG will show something...not that it changes anything but information never hurts.

I'm going to try a bit of valerian tea tonight, that in combination with the remeron seems to be the best for sleep the few times I've tried it. I haven't had DP/DR (yet) and I pray for people that do...seems awful. Basically just anxiety for me since I hadn't slept for 2 weeks lol.
 
Cotcha Yankinov said:
Your receptors and serotonin stores (vesicles) are certainly working just fine, they are recycled all the time so no need to worry about permanent effects on them.

It could be that disruption of the histamine wakefulness projection has allowed some maladaptive synapses to atrophy. It could also be that at your dose Mirtazapine is starting to block 5HT2A and other serotonin receptors, or that another effect like that is starting to kick in. Please note that 5HT2A is not a particularly beneficial serotonin receptor, you really don't want too much 5HT2A activation - same with 5HT2C.

Another option is just that there was some synaptic reorganization with your night of good sleep.

I would try to meditate. Practice mindfulness everyday and see how things go. The headspace app I highly recommend.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your in depth technical insight, Yankinov. I am very grateful for your expertise.

Although I can't quite comprehend some of these terms, I will do some research and see if I can take anything from your analysis as I have little knowledge of biology or pharmacology.
I'll see how I go over the next few days and report back if you don't mind, I could use a guide right now.

I do meditate using the Vipassana method, which helps me accept certain symptoms and reduce my suffering however if I can rid them altogether with such a little dose of Mirtazapine then it seems redundant.

I have been utterly messed up -chronically- *feeling* as if brain damaged; [in order of severity] DP/DR, anhedonia, TMJ, insomnia, depression, ego dysfunction/difficulty relating to others in social contexts.

Despite my best efforts of healthy eating, regular exercise, positive thinking, meditation, socializing, therapy, challenging myself in every aspect of life and yet minute improvements but then suddenly I am back to normal after 2mg of Mirt?
However I have oft been convinced that I had returned to normality before just to slip back into the LTC once again. I don't know what to take from this. Part of me wants to accept that I will be permanently this way and yet another clings onto the longing to be permanently stable again, not discounting 'normal' fluctuations in life.

Also this revelation that I can 'fix' myself with an anti-d leads me to believe my issue is purely physiological despite every Tom, Dick and Harry insisting that I should look at psychological factors first.

Is there any advice you can offer, in layman's terms this time?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top