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Of course homeopathy doesn't work – but patients don't want to hear it

bit_pattern

Ex-Bluelighter
Joined
Oct 17, 2008
Messages
8,128
This is a common sentiment, one I've seen here. people don't want to hear facts that conflict with their beliefs. Sad but true. But the idea of communiation is important. Something about science communication I've come to appreciate recently is that if you want to convince anyone of anything then you have to speak to their values, find common values and have a shared narrative based around those values. Sadly, I'm not very good at it :(
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http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...thy-doesnt-work-but-some-dont-want-to-hear-it

Of course homeopathy doesn't work – but patients don't want to hear it

The medical establishment dismisses homeopathy, but many people are willing to defend it – often because they finally feel heard by alternative medicine practitioners

All my children were resolutely bald for the first two years of their life. I didn’t mind, but the concern of a woman at playgroup made up for my lack of it.

Convinced that baldness signified a "bodily imbalance", she exhorted me to seek homeopathic treatment. I was recommended a practitioner who had successfully treated the woman’s own children for asthma, colic and school-related stress. All her treatments were natural, safe, guaranteed to work, and relatively cheap at $40 apiece. My poor daughter, routinely mistaken for a boy, would soon flaunt Rapunzel-like hair. And what more, my private health insurance would cover her transformation.

When I politely demurred, the woman’s irritation was obvious. "You western doctor types", she shook her head disapprovingly, "you just can’t bear to think that you don’t have all the answers."

Comprehensive research by the well-regarded Australian NHMRC concluded this week that homeopathy is ineffective. Prominent doctors declared it unethical to prescribe, and health funds told to stop subsidising it.

To the medical community fed up of quackery, the results simply confirms an established fact. But as the ensuing furious exchange shows, to those who would cure an infant’s baldness with homeopathy, the conclusion is just another example of the bias of conventional doctors against something they don’t want to learn about. The establishment dismisses homeopathy, but a million Australians are willing to embrace it, defend it, and ridicule the evidence against it.

As an oncologist, I am no stranger to patients who would happily spend the consultation trying to convince me of the salutary benefits of apricot kernel or lavender extract. Discussions of homeopathy as a viable alternative to chemotherapy cause their own share of disagreement. But how does one handle these testy conversations? Time-honoured tools include rolling one’s eyes, declaring that a patient is mistaken, and gradually disengaging, all practiced with varying degrees of subtlety. They only serve to alienate patients who still need our help and partnership.

Users of alternative health take any number of unknowable and even dangerous products, but they all tend to describe one common element – they feel heard. They sense sympathy for their condition, they feel respected, and they are drawn to the appeal of a simple explanation even if it’s wrong.

"I don’t care if homeopathy is crap, but it’s the only place someone really listens to me", said a patient. In other words, what people hanker for is human communion, a rare commodity in modern medicine whose absence is noted by opportunists.

The research findings make me reflect that doctors can either spend their time wondering why people can’t see what’s good for them, or we can seek to improve our communication with patients to at least partly address the reasons people turn to alternative health practitioners. And here, medical training is widely thought to do an inadequate job.

The more medicine advances, the more nuanced it becomes. On a ward round, absolute answers to thorny issue are missing. Should a deeply unconscious stroke patient be artificially fed and for how long? Should a competent woman be allowed to return to a dozen cats, rancid food and an unsafe home? How does one broach a not for resuscitation directive with somebody who doesn’t realise the gravity of his disease? Is the patient refusing treatment in denial or is she reasonably declining the poor offerings?

The answers have less to do with following a strict medical protocol than with skilfully navigating difficult and deeply sensitive conversations with vulnerable patients and anxious relatives. These conversations require a range of skills including medical expertise, but also a greater measure compassion, empathy and patience. Time and again it is not the smartest doctor who helps the patient, but the one who takes the time to listen, who is at ease with uncertainty and who can articulate a viewpoint without seeming arrogant or defensive. Patients say that even when the news is bad, the way it is delivered can sustain hope or shatter it.

As a trainee oncologist, I participated in a memorable workshop with a simulated patient who tactfully told me that I needed to lift my act. I found the experience transformative, more so than memorising all the chemotherapy protocols.

Anyone who has encountered a doctor appreciates that there is an art to medicine. But by and large, we allow doctors to practice medicine with minimal training in how to hone this art and how to communicate effectively with patients. There is an entrenched belief that either the skill is inherent, or that one will eventually master it. On the contrary, it requires regular practice, good role models and robust mentoring.

With or without research to expose homeopathy as bogus, the believers will prevail in their view. Dismissing them outright doesn’t really advance the issue, but we could use the opportunity to examine the role of doctor-patient communication in driving people to seek the false reassurance of alternative remedies.
 
I think Homeopathy has it's place.
The power of placebo is strong. And many pharmaceuticals are prescribed in a cavalier for-profit manner.
Those pharmaceuticals often have significant side-effects, and the 'science' behind them often involves funding studies designed to reach a particular profitable conclusion.
Homeopathy also provides some good practitioners with a medium in which to help patients. Not everyone can be a doctor.

For those mild illnesses which time best heals, Homeopathy may actually be superior to Western medicine. The important thing is that patients must not have any reservations toward using Western medicine for regular screenings and when more aggressive treatment or surgery is needed.
 
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If someone thinks they can rid themselves of run of the mill headaches with homeopathy, then thats fine. Let them do so, and pay for it themselves. If on the otherhand, a terminally ill cancer patient is pinning their hopes on a cure by taking little white placebo pills that is offering someone false hope, and goes against the core of what the medical profession stands for. Even worse, when patients demand that homeopathy be provided free of charge via the NHS (in the UK).
 
What's unfortunate is that if people do feel it's working, now they're just going to be rebuffed with "it's all in your head".

I respect the finding, I am just wary of the culture backlash that will follow.
 
I'll be damned if I'm going to dismiss the concept of water memory. Apparently Masaru Emoto as well as Louis Rey, more recently, have provided good evidence for water memory.

Louis Rey has published two articles, to my knowledge, on this subject:

Rey, Louis, 2002, Thermoluminescence of ultra-high dilutions of lithium chloride and sodium chloride. Physica A 323 (2003) 67–74

Rey, Louis, 2007, Can low-temperature thermoluminescence cast light on the nature of ultra-high dilutions? Homeopathy, 96, 170–174

You can download them here.

Apparently Ars Technica takes issue with his research (see page 5). Diluting the scientific method: Ars looks at homeopathy. John Timmer, 2007

I'm not educated enough to make an assessment of this situation.


I'm under the impression that homeopathy refers specifically to a modality of treating illness using an extraordinary dilution of a substance that can cause similar symptoms in its undiluted form. However, such diluted substances are used beyond the realms of treating disease, simply for their effects on consciousness. As far as I'm aware, all the clinical trials of water-memory substances have involved homeopathic substances. In my opinion, it would be much more efficient to evaluate some of these psychoactive ultra high dilutions. Apparently "homeopathic" LSD, for example, has substantial effects (skip to the "Provers" section): The Homœopathic Proving of LSD-25

I'm not going to dismiss such a substance as water memory LSD until I try it myself. I'm skeptical of the investigations into homeopathy thus far because they've all focused on the non-psychoactives. They've focused on disease and illness and that whole area is just so much more questionable than that of psychoactive substances, where a person can immediately tell if they have an effect or not.
 
Of course homeopathy is bunk, and of course the people pushing it are charlatans. But people keep supporting it. Here's what I think: When people are ill, they dont just want a cure. They want to be listened to, understood, cared for, they want someone to give a fuck. Modern health care has gotten pretty good at using evidence to inform practice, but it has gotten worse at caring and listening. Homeopaths on the other hand have become very successful by tapping into this need to be cared for. They usually provide a tailored, highly personalised service and probably often do a much better job of caring. So even though their product is snake oil, people will be drawn in regardless.

Health care needs to provide evidence based treatment, but also needs to ensure that they engage with the public to ensure that they dont lose people to homeopaths, iridologists, palm readers, voodoo shamans, neopagan healers or whatever.
 
Wasn't Masaru Emoto widely discredited? I don't really remember on what grounds though. Watch this, it's an interesting notion.



Watching that, or believing their claims may leave you in awe, But try to back it up. There is nothing of substance behind it that I've ever found.

This is the Research Centre the video refers too http://www.weltimtropfen.de/ (It's in german - Yay for google translator!)
 
You can tell quite easily who has made science their religion.

Brainwashing and propaganda is so effective. Simply fascinated.
 
You can tell quite easily who has made science their religion.

Brainwashing and propaganda is so effective. Simply fascinated.

Lol, the hilarity =D

Its the complete lack of self awareness I find so funny.

Although it is kind of sad to think that 400 years of Enlightenment thinking has come to this - that the people who have most benefited from science can be so condascendingly dismissive of the framework that allows them to live such long and fruitful lives.

If you really believe the crap you wrote then i 'm sure you'd be the first to reject things like antibiotics and anaethisia in favour of homeopathy the next time you end up in ER. I mean, just look at how great the quality of life was for patients BEFORE science paved the way for modern medicine. An average life expectancy of 35 is exactly the kind of world you anti-science wing nuts want to live in, right?
 
Corazon: placebo has a place, homeopathy doesn't. Placebo effect is powerful but some of the latest research is showing that you can apply the placebo effect WITHOUT deceiving patients. Basic ethics dictate that deception is wrong. The trick is how to utilize the power of the mind to heal WITHOUT resorting to voodoo and trickery.
 
Lol, the hilarity =D

Its the complete lack of self awareness I find so funny.

Although it is kind of sad to think that 400 years of Enlightenment thinking has come to this - that the people who have most benefited from science can be so condascendingly dismissive of the framework that allows them to live such long and fruitful lives.

If you really believe the crap you wrote then i 'm sure you'd be the first to reject things like antibiotics and anaethisia in favour of homeopathy the next time you end up in ER. I mean, just look at how great the quality of life was for patients BEFORE science paved the way for modern medicine. An average life expectancy of 35 is exactly the kind of world you anti-science wing nuts want to live in, right?

Lol
 
Lol, the hilarity =D

Its the complete lack of self awareness I find so funny.

Although it is kind of sad to think that 400 years of Enlightenment thinking has come to this - that the people who have most benefited from science can be so condascendingly dismissive of the framework that allows them to live such long and fruitful lives.

If you really believe the crap you wrote then i 'm sure you'd be the first to reject things like antibiotics and anaethisia in favour of homeopathy the next time you end up in ER. I mean, just look at how great the quality of life was for patients BEFORE science paved the way for modern medicine. An average life expectancy of 35 is exactly the kind of world you anti-science wing nuts want to live in, right?


Thank you bit_pattern, I wasn't sure how to respond - but you have done a good job of putting my thoughts into words - Thanks! ;)
 
Corazon: placebo has a place, homeopathy doesn't. Placebo effect is powerful but some of the latest research is showing that you can apply the placebo effect WITHOUT deceiving patients. Basic ethics dictate that deception is wrong. The trick is how to utilize the power of the mind to heal WITHOUT resorting to voodoo and trickery.

Here's a fascinating doco on the placebo effect and the way it is being utilised without deceit:

[video=dailymotion;x1dpxba]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1dpxba_bbc-horizon-2014-the-power-of-the-placebo-720p-hdtv-x264-aac-mvgroup-org_shortfilms[/video]
 
Good article.

The problem is our brains are designed for anecdotal thinking. So things like homeopathy just make "common sense" on a gut level. Unfortunately our gut instincts are often very wrong.

Everyone "knows" that just because something is natural it means safer and that anything man made is poison. But that's rubbish. Our bodies are entirely made up of chemicals and drugs, it doesn't care whether you are putting something natural or synthetic in it.

Science is complex and there are no easy answers. There's decades sometimes centuries of testing, evidence, research, error correcting, etc. This is very boring and not as sexy as "the health industry is keeping us sick to make money off us you can cure yourself naturally"
 
Placebo is present in every kind of medicine, including modern bio medicine. It doesn't explain how homeopathy has specific physiological impacts for a lot of people.

It's a case where the testimony and anecdotal reporting is being completely dismissed, despite its largesse, because there is no material evidence that anything is physically in the water other than the water itself. Water memory is irrelevant... you don't even have to go there in trying to explain this. You can dilute something ad infinitum and it will always retain a psychic imprint of what was originally in it, and it's the psychic level that homeopathy operates on. It's a subtle energetic medicine. The homeopaths were operating in the USA pre-civil war and were basically exiled, along with the eclectic herbalists, until their return in the 1950's. Modern biomedicine has an historical vendetta against its competitors and the struggle continues.

According to the principles of energetic medicine, homeopathy makes perfect sense and works. Science will continue to beat its drum but oh well. The modern biomedicine industry does everything it can to suppress the non-material aspects of human health which have been integral to most pre-modern medical systems.

If you don't believe in homeopathy then don't use it, but don't take away my right to take it.
 
You can dilute something ad infinitum and it will always retain a psychic imprint of what was originally in it,

You mean to tell me I'm drinking Caesar's piss? *spit take*

It would be interesting to have a blinded comparison between distilled water and a homeopathic "40X" or whatever extract. I'd put good money that people couldn't tell the difference. This is essentially the same excercise as putting $3.99 dollar store "red" wine in a fancy bottle and serving it at a dinner party... it's all in the presentation.
 
Placebo is present in every kind of medicine, including modern bio medicine. It doesn't explain how homeopathy has specific physiological impacts for a lot of people.

Care to cite some examples? Are there double blind studies? Because that could easily be explained by chance and placebo.
 
Care to cite some examples? Are there double blind studies? Because that could easily be explained by chance and placebo.

That is right, the placebo effect works just as well when there is a substance which might have an effect as when there is not but clearly you cant tell who got better because the drug worked or the placebo effect worked. If the drug companies were made to remove the effect of placebo from their trials you would be surpised at how ineffective most medications actually are at treating anything. What it isn't is any kind of proof in favour of homeopathy, 'placebo' is not a 'thing' it is an effect that may or may not be related to a 'thing' but it is a casual relationship and not a causal one.
Alternative medicine is medicine without any proof that it works because if it did work it wouldnt be alternative. Sometimes we might just be waiting for the proof to turn up but mostly it will never turn up and then alternative medicine is a waste of time and money, modern day snake oil for the desperate.
It is difficult in that I really dont care if someone wants to use homeopathy in much the same way that I dont care if they want to use illicit drugs but I do care if they, for example, treat their children with it rather than with antibiotics or expect it from the NHS with my tax money.
 
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