Hello everyone
I've been wondering something and would like to get some input from the experts here. I don't think many of you are aware of this puzzling phenomenon so I'll try to explain it in detail, feel free to ask questions. I would like to understand what on earth is the culprit to this. So here we go:
There is anecdotal evidence that the abuse of GABA-B agonists (at least GHB and phenibut) sometimes causes a post-acute withdrawal syndrome (PAWS) different from the PAWSs of other drugs which consists of the following symptoms:
1) pleasure doesn't occur anymore in response to pleasurable stimuli: consummatory anhedonia*
2) opioids do not function anymore: diminished or zero response to exogenous opioids in terms of all effects including euphoria, analgesia and respiratory depression
3) rewarding drugs lose their euphoric and pleasurable effects: stimulants, benzos etc.
4) high tolerance to GABA-B agonists persists especially in terms of the pleasant effects: the threshold for phenibut and GHB goes up to many grams and pleasant effects may be impossible to induce regardless of the dose
*Consummatory anhedonia is a completely distinct phenomenon from the typical anhedonia which may more accurately be described as anticipatory anhedonia. In essence, consummatory anhedonia (CA) means the inability to experience pleasure in response to pleasurable stimuli such as music, sugar or sexual stimulation, however it does not include emotional and motivational dysfunction like the normal anhedonia does. The CA concept is explained in this free article: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3005986/
We shall continue. The anecdotal evidence I'm talking about comes from the following sources:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/249518-GABAergic-withdrawal-resembling-D2-antagonism (feel free to ignore the "resembling D2 antagonism" theory)
http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/59549-the-anhedonia-thread/page__st__270#entry587617
There were a couple of other threads too, can't find them at the moment but I'll try to dig them up.
The point is that apparently excess use of GABA-B agonists can damage the brain's pleasure pathways in such ways that the four symptoms I mentioned occur. The question is: what on earth could be the culprit to this?
It seems sensible that when the acute withdrawal ends the GABA-B receptors have upregulated back to the pre-abuse state. As the consummatory anhedonia (CA) may persist or even emerge after the acute withdrawal, it appears to be caused by something else than downregulated GABA-B receptors. I can think of many mechanisms that theoretically could be responsible for the CA, the opioid tolerance and the lack of drug pleasure, however
1) apparently nobody has found anything to effectively remove the symptoms and
2) not a single theory explains why tolerance to GABA-B agonists remains high even after months have passed since cessation and the acute withdrawal is only a memory and it appears that the GABA-B receptors have upregulated back to normal state
Does anyone have any idea on what's going on in the brains of those who once abused GHB or phenibut and were left with CA and the other mentioned symptoms? It's quite staggering how opioids can lose their effects - this clearly indicates that the problem is a big one and that it has nothing to do with psychological issues nor with the normal, or "anticipatory" anhedonia.
And why am I asking this - did I abuse those drugs? No. But I've got the same symptoms. I believe I have an endogenous condition resembling GABA-Bergic post-acute withdrawal syndrome. I have consummatory anhedonia (no problems with motivation, anticipation and emotions yet I feel zero pleasure when having sex, listening to music, eating candy and so forth), zero reaction to opioids (morphine, codeine), no pleasure from rewarding drugs (stimulants, depressants, hallucinogens) and extremely high threshold for GABA-Bergics (phenibut, GHB).
I have a ton of ideas of what could help but so far the 28 drugs I have tried have not worked. I'll be glad to discuss my ideas (many of them invented by SWIM!) but I'm not gonna mess up this post with them, I'll let you give your input first...
Say it loud whatever you've got in your mind. I hate brainstorming but I have to resort to it now.
Thank you!
Vieno
I've been wondering something and would like to get some input from the experts here. I don't think many of you are aware of this puzzling phenomenon so I'll try to explain it in detail, feel free to ask questions. I would like to understand what on earth is the culprit to this. So here we go:
There is anecdotal evidence that the abuse of GABA-B agonists (at least GHB and phenibut) sometimes causes a post-acute withdrawal syndrome (PAWS) different from the PAWSs of other drugs which consists of the following symptoms:
1) pleasure doesn't occur anymore in response to pleasurable stimuli: consummatory anhedonia*
2) opioids do not function anymore: diminished or zero response to exogenous opioids in terms of all effects including euphoria, analgesia and respiratory depression
3) rewarding drugs lose their euphoric and pleasurable effects: stimulants, benzos etc.
4) high tolerance to GABA-B agonists persists especially in terms of the pleasant effects: the threshold for phenibut and GHB goes up to many grams and pleasant effects may be impossible to induce regardless of the dose
*Consummatory anhedonia is a completely distinct phenomenon from the typical anhedonia which may more accurately be described as anticipatory anhedonia. In essence, consummatory anhedonia (CA) means the inability to experience pleasure in response to pleasurable stimuli such as music, sugar or sexual stimulation, however it does not include emotional and motivational dysfunction like the normal anhedonia does. The CA concept is explained in this free article: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3005986/
We shall continue. The anecdotal evidence I'm talking about comes from the following sources:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/249518-GABAergic-withdrawal-resembling-D2-antagonism (feel free to ignore the "resembling D2 antagonism" theory)
Extreme anhedonia
--
I have also personally experienced a MARKED (almost complete) reduction of the euphoric effects of dopaminergic drugs.
--
A speedball made me feel "high" but not as blissful as a speedball should be.
Think i've experienced this, was using GBL uh probably "too often" heh, and some benzo's as well, after stopping both suddenly, I found that I could eat 30mg hydrocodone, and feel almost 'nothing'... no opiate tolerance..
http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/59549-the-anhedonia-thread/page__st__270#entry587617
For a period of time after my withdrawal from Phenibut last year I experienced consummatory anhedonia in that I really anticipated and wanted to experience pleasure but I never got the response. Pretty sure I would have been immune to opioid drugs.
There were a couple of other threads too, can't find them at the moment but I'll try to dig them up.
The point is that apparently excess use of GABA-B agonists can damage the brain's pleasure pathways in such ways that the four symptoms I mentioned occur. The question is: what on earth could be the culprit to this?
It seems sensible that when the acute withdrawal ends the GABA-B receptors have upregulated back to the pre-abuse state. As the consummatory anhedonia (CA) may persist or even emerge after the acute withdrawal, it appears to be caused by something else than downregulated GABA-B receptors. I can think of many mechanisms that theoretically could be responsible for the CA, the opioid tolerance and the lack of drug pleasure, however
1) apparently nobody has found anything to effectively remove the symptoms and
2) not a single theory explains why tolerance to GABA-B agonists remains high even after months have passed since cessation and the acute withdrawal is only a memory and it appears that the GABA-B receptors have upregulated back to normal state
Does anyone have any idea on what's going on in the brains of those who once abused GHB or phenibut and were left with CA and the other mentioned symptoms? It's quite staggering how opioids can lose their effects - this clearly indicates that the problem is a big one and that it has nothing to do with psychological issues nor with the normal, or "anticipatory" anhedonia.
And why am I asking this - did I abuse those drugs? No. But I've got the same symptoms. I believe I have an endogenous condition resembling GABA-Bergic post-acute withdrawal syndrome. I have consummatory anhedonia (no problems with motivation, anticipation and emotions yet I feel zero pleasure when having sex, listening to music, eating candy and so forth), zero reaction to opioids (morphine, codeine), no pleasure from rewarding drugs (stimulants, depressants, hallucinogens) and extremely high threshold for GABA-Bergics (phenibut, GHB).
I have a ton of ideas of what could help but so far the 28 drugs I have tried have not worked. I'll be glad to discuss my ideas (many of them invented by SWIM!) but I'm not gonna mess up this post with them, I'll let you give your input first...
Say it loud whatever you've got in your mind. I hate brainstorming but I have to resort to it now.
Thank you!
Vieno