Bupe will kratom cause precipitated wd?

[Picnic_Johnson]

I've heard doctors erroneously say that using another opioid while on Suboxone will cause withdrawal. I don't know if it's because they believe that or they just hope to make the ignorant patients believe that

 

[OpiateKiller]

That's what I was afraid of
Like the brand but not the black liquid. Does it list an amount for also
7-OH mitragynine?

I was wrong its 310mg total, 48% Mitragynine - 148 mg
and 7-OH mitragynine is around 7 mg per capsule

 

[plumbus-nine]

Kratom contains some alkaloids which are (mu) opioid antagonists, yeah but my experience is that it doesn't precipitate withdrawal - the affinities will be pretty low I guess.

 

[darvocet21]

Kratom contains some alkaloids which are (mu) opioid antagonists, yeah but my experience is that it doesn't precipitate withdrawal - the affinities will be pretty low I guess.

Makes sense otherwise Kratom would be ostracized if it caused overdoses, hounded and chased into the shadows with all the cool drugs. Like Fentanyl

Kratom is subtle. You have to admire a plant that coaxes you into using smaller and smaller amounts in order to get more out of it

 

[plumbus-nine]

Makes sense otherwise Kratom would be ostracized if it caused overdoses, hounded and chased into the shadows with all the cool drugs. Like Fentanyl

Kratom is subtle. You have to admire a plant that coaxes you into using smaller and smaller amounts in order to get more out of it

My first cup of red vein kratom recently set me straight to bed nodding for some hours. Were just maybe 10g and I was tolerant to 120mg/d morphine which I skipped on that day. Lasted maybe 6h, then withdrawal signs began. Similar with the 20x extract I ordered, this one was snorted pretty potent. Unfortunately this wasn't repeatable, tolerance is only partial with traditional opiates but develops quick.

 

[darvocet21]

Kratom contains some alkaloids which are (mu) opioid antagonists, yeah but my experience is that it doesn't precipitate withdrawal - the affinities will be pretty low I guess.

Makes sense otherwise Kratom would be ostracized if it caused overdoses, hounded and chased into the shadows with all the cool drugs. I'm joking kratom is cool. For now

My first cup of red vein kratom recently set me straight to bed nodding for some hours. Were just maybe 10g and I was tolerant to 120mg/d morphine which I skipped on that day. Lasted maybe 6h, then withdrawal signs began. Similar with the 20x extract I ordered, this one was snorted pretty potent. Unfortunately this wasn't repeatable, tolerance is only partial with traditional opiates but develops quick.

I've heard people say vein color can vary year to year on the same tree. I don't know what to believe. How long were you taking the morphine

 

[plumbus-nine]

I've heard people say vein color can vary year to year on the same tree. I don't know what to believe. How long were you taking the morphine

Years, was tapering down from 480mg/d to 120mg/d using pregabalin + memantine, then the kratom arrived and I gave it a try. Might have had some remaining morphine in my system though as they are retard capsules which work 24+h, withdrawal usually kicks in only the second day of skipping doses. First it worked greatly, as I said was borderline-nodding from a cup of red vein (very possibly that you're right and vein color doesn't really mean much - I have now red vein again and it's much weaker than the sample was.) and specially the 20x extract works great, it more or less substitutes for the morphine but unfortunately has a slight dysphoria attached to it - I guess because of dopamine and serotonin antagonism.

 

[darvocet21]

Kratom is very unpredictable. The only thing you're guaranteed to feel is about 10 minutes wondering does this feel like one Vicodin or two? I never forget when Joe Rogan said it made him so high that he couldn't believe it was available in stores. I wanted to knock him on the head and say I can't believe you get DMT for free everynight

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Kratom is very unpredictable. The only thing you're guaranteed to feel is about 10 minutes wondering does this feel like one Vicodin or two? I never forget when Joe Rogan said it made him so high that he couldn't believe it was available in stores. I wanted to knock him on the head and say I can't believe you get DMT for free everynight

I have never been able to achieve opioid-effects from kratom. I find it hard to believe people prefer it over heroin/bupe/methadone.

 

[Robby D]

I have never been able to achieve opioid-effects from kratom. I find it hard to believe people prefer it over heroin/bupe/methadone.

To me it is a nasty feeling almost like a strong psych drug taken for the first time! Just made me feel really weird and made me shake. Definitely not a good smooth opiate buzz at all!!

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

To me it is a nasty feeling almost like a strong psych drug taken for the first time! Just made me feel really weird and made me shake. Definitely not a good smooth opiate buzz at all!!

I agree. Some of the alkaloids in kratom are related to coffee and are actually opioid antagonists.
I've tried all kinds of brands, capsules, extracts. Some of the extracts feel alright but they don't get anything close to an opiate for me, even with low tolerance.

I'm glad it works for other people, but I can't understand why it does nothing for me.
Not only does it not give me any opioid effects, but it also tears up my stomach with all that plant matter to digest. Having to redose that every few hours would be brutal on me.


Kratom worked for me ONCE back in 2012. This was when people were spiking kratom with o-desmethyltramadol. When that stopped, I noticed kratom no longer & to this day still does not produce even a quarter of a decent enough opioid effect in me to get a buzz, let alone replace something as strong as heroin, fent, bupe or methadone. I could see it maybe helping some after coming off bupe or something. But that's about it. Although I tried that a few years ago when I got bupe off the streets and it just barely helped with getting me up off my ass, but still didn't feel like an opioid.

 

[plumbus-nine]

I agree. Some of the alkaloids in kratom are related to coffee and are actually opioid antagonists.
I've tried all kinds of brands, capsules, extracts. Some of the extracts feel alright but they don't get anything close to an opiate for me, even with low tolerance.

Worse actually are some of these alkaloids being dopamine D2 and serotonin antagonists, really indeed like a freaking psych pill. I agree with that I'd never prefer it to any real opioid but when in withdrawal it's a godsend being legal and (more or less) cheap.

But yeah the plant is a coffee relative and contains opioid antagonists as well as a dissociative and adenosine antagonists (like caffeine is) but most of these only in trace amounts, kratom doesn't precipitate withdrawal unlike bupe.

Oh it for me too worked only once, that was a strong red vein and later 20x extract intranasal - without O-DSMT that is, but kratom really has a weird property of working only once. Guess that's because of just partial cross tolerance. Nowadays it just takes withdrawal away but guess in the dosages I'm using (that is as much as possible until reaching ceiling) it would get somebody w/o tolerance high.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

I agree. Some of the alkaloids in kratom are related to coffee and are actually opioid antagonists.
I've tried all kinds of brands, capsules, extracts. Some of the extracts feel alright but they don't get anything close to an opiate for me, even with low tolerance.

I'm glad it works for other people, but I can't understand why it does nothing for me.
Not only does it not give me any opioid effects, but it also tears up my stomach with all that plant matter to digest. Having to redose that every few hours would be brutal on me.


Kratom worked for me ONCE back in 2012. This was when people were spiking kratom with o-desmethyltramadol. When that stopped, I noticed kratom no longer & to this day still does not produce even a quarter of a decent enough opioid effect in me to get a buzz, let alone replace something as strong as heroin, fent, bupe or methadone. I could see it maybe helping some after coming off bupe or something. But that's about it. Although I tried that a few years ago when I got bupe off the streets and it just barely helped with getting me up off my ass, but still didn't feel like an opioid.

Coffee is a opiod antagonist (i read), not a strong one i guess. but its rumored to be one.

So Kratom sharing that isn't that surprising, but makes you wonder how it effects people. And how Coffee effects people

 

[plumbus-nine]

Coffee is a opiod antagonist (i read), not a strong one i guess. but its rumored to be one.

So Kratom sharing that isn't that surprising, but makes you wonder how it effects people. And how Coffee effects people

Oh, that's interesting and might be why coffee potentiates opioid withdrawal - it must be a weak one though because I used to drink strong coffee while on morphine and it didn't antagonize it. My bet's rather on coffee's main activity as an adenosine antagonist, thus kinda antagonizing the brain's tiredness molecule. Do you have a link to the source where you read it?

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Worse actually are some of these alkaloids being dopamine D2 and serotonin antagonists, really indeed like a freaking psych pill. I agree with that I'd never prefer it to any real opioid but when in withdrawal it's a godsend being legal and (more or less) cheap.

But yeah the plant is a coffee relative and contains opioid antagonists as well as a dissociative and adenosine antagonists (like caffeine is) but most of these only in trace amounts, kratom doesn't precipitate withdrawal unlike bupe.

Oh it for me too worked only once, that was a strong red vein and later 20x extract intranasal - without O-DSMT that is, but kratom really has a weird property of working only once. Guess that's because of just partial cross tolerance. Nowadays it just takes withdrawal away but guess in the dosages I'm using (that is as much as possible until reaching ceiling) it would get somebody w/o tolerance high.

Amazing information! That explains why my kratom experiences have actually always been rather unpleasant, rather than warm & cozy like heroin & the like. Being antagonists at those receptors I would think would render any recreational potential to be futile (unless you're into taking psyche meds recreationally I guess haha).

Opiates/opioids technically use to be considered "psychiatric meds" here in the US (and im sure many other places) and I have found them to be very efficient at that job and to feel much cleaner & less side effects than today's "traditional" psychiatric medicine.

I'm assuming it was the O-dsmt kratom that I got back then. It felt like I had taken a couple hydrocodone (even got opioid nausea). I was a huge tramadol addict back then as well and looking back on that experience and the experiences I've had with "today's kratom", I am absolutely betting that kratom was the tramadol metabolite.

I find my buprenorphine more fun/helpful than kratom and I hate buprenorphine. So that's saying alot. lol

Thank you for that extra information!!! Excellent to know!

Coffee is a opiod antagonist (i read), not a strong one i guess. but its rumored to be one.

So Kratom sharing that isn't that surprising, but makes you wonder how it effects people. And how Coffee effects people

I use to find coffee on heroin and tramadol to make me more sedated actually. It didn't always necessary increase the euphoria or anything, but it would throw me into a sleepy nod feeling.

Maybe the antagonists have low affinity and the slight antagonism at receptors is actually potentiating the opioid sitting on the rest of your receptors. Or perhaps opioids interact with adenosine receptors some how? Not sure, but I never found coffee to put me into withdrawal at all. Although I believe the reason coffee helps get your bowels moving in the morning is it's antagonism in your intestines.

 

[plumbus-nine]

Coffee doesn't induce withdrawal but it increases intensity of persisting withdrawals at least I find and read too that one should avoid caffeine while withdrawing. Makes sense because w/d already is excitatory and caffeine inhibits the brain's response to exhaustion.

Strangely I find kratom extract (specified 20x and full-spectrum) to be superior to the same amount of plain leaves, maybe it isn't really full spectrum but an extraction method focusing on mitragynine - I'm not sure but pretty convinced that it isn't the mitragynine or 7-HO but other alkaloids which are responsible for kratom's somewhat dirty feeling.

I found coffee to be still stimulating while on morphine but less so than usual. Yeah, opioids indeed make superior psychiatric medicines, I find it sad that the war on drugs focuses so much on making opioids worse than they are. Primary problem imo isn't tolerance or addiction as one is supposed to stay on psych meds infinitely anyways at least in heavy cases but that opiates (less so opioids, seemingly) suppress hormones, specifically testosterone in men, with time this can turn into full blown depression but could easily be substituted - a substitution to the substitution, lol but I tried it and supplementing T indeed lifts opioid induced depression but it's too expensive for me to afford unfortunately so it remains an experiment. Libido comes back too with T.

Today's medicine are a gamble anyways - it's completely random what we have on market, and they shelve a ton of promising molecules but today's approval process is a bad joke which costs a fuckton of money and doesn't stop toxic molecules from hitting the market but makes them throw stuff which only helps a certain percentage because it must pass trials ...

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Coffee doesn't induce withdrawal but it increases intensity of persisting withdrawals at least I find and read too that one should avoid caffeine while withdrawing. Makes sense because w/d already is excitatory and caffeine inhibits the brain's response to exhaustion.

Strangely I find kratom extract (specified 20x and full-spectrum) to be superior to the same amount of plain leaves, maybe it isn't really full spectrum but an extraction method focusing on mitragynine - I'm not sure but pretty convinced that it isn't the mitragynine or 7-HO but other alkaloids which are responsible for kratom's somewhat dirty feeling.

I found coffee to be still stimulating while on morphine but less so than usual. Yeah, opioids indeed make superior psychiatric medicines, I find it sad that the war on drugs focuses so much on making opioids worse than they are. Primary problem imo isn't tolerance or addiction as one is supposed to stay on psych meds infinitely anyways at least in heavy cases but that opiates (less so opioids, seemingly) suppress hormones, specifically testosterone in men, with time this can turn into full blown depression but could easily be substituted - a substitution to the substitution, lol but I tried it and supplementing T indeed lifts opioid induced depression but it's too expensive for me to afford unfortunately so it remains an experiment. Libido comes back too with T.

Today's medicine are a gamble anyways - it's completely random what we have on market, and they shelve a ton of promising molecules but today's approval process is a bad joke which costs a fuckton of money and doesn't stop toxic molecules from hitting the market but makes them throw stuff which only helps a certain percentage because it must pass trials ...

I couldn't agree with you more there!
I try to be very vocal about the war on drugs and the value some of these 'evil deadly illegal narcotics' do have for some people who use them.

I have treatment resistant depression, panic & anxiety and personality disorder. Only things that have ever made me feel normal were tramadol in the 300-400mg range, diacetylmorphine, hydrocodone, methadone & of course buprenorphine.

Unfortunately though because of buprenorphines long ass half life and partial agonism, it is a difficult drug to use once you're tolerant, as adjusting the dose (up and down) doesn't do much good, like it would with a shorter acting full agonist.

I think it sucks that we do not have this option to use morphine, diacetylmorphine, various opioids for mental health & even recreation. There is a lot of misinformation surrounding opioid overdose (especially the danger of 'heroin overdose') and I try to be as vocal about it as I can. They have done a good job demonizing opiates/opioids and any potentials they may have as medicines & have flooded our markets with shitty fentanyl (which can be deadly).

I'm always glad to see another person who understands, knows the literature and the facts and sees through all this drug war BS. Thank you for your insights!!

Some countries have already legalized & give addicts diacetylmorphine. They've seen overdose/death, crime & new addictions go way down. Why we have not implemented such a thing in our Western world is beyond me. I'm basically denied my right to take a medicine that helps me, emotionally, physically and even spiritually at times. A "criminal" for exploring my own bodies chemicals!

 

[plumbus-nine]

Some countries have already legalized & give addicts diacetylmorphine. They've seen overdose/death, crime & new addictions go way down. Why we have not implemented such a thing in our Western world is beyond me. I'm basically denied my right to take a medicine that helps me, emotionally, physically and even spiritually at times. A "criminal" for exploring my own bodies chemicals!

Switzerland is among these countries but still diamorph substitution comes with heavy restrictions, one need to go there daily for infinite amount of time while they hand out morphine, bupe or methadone after just one positive urine sample and the spoken agreement to that it will be something one might have to stay on forever. It was almost too easy to get into substitution but the weekly appointments sucked. I can't imagine to be dependent on daily visits.

Buprenorphine's main benefit as well as problem is indeed its partial agonism. I tried up to 4mg/d and it did next to nothing for me while the full agonists take away each and any anxiety - I too have treatment resistant anxiety and depression, personality disorder is imo a flawed diagnosis where they put these people which don't fit into the other diagnosis. Like schizophrenia. Some fuck ass doc wanted to diagnose me with paranoid schizophrenia when I have none of the symptoms. They even wanted to inject me with Invega Sustenna - just look at the coming off threads here. Ugh. Never visited that doc again. Unfortunately it was in the clinic where I got my substitution - they didn't take me off but began to force me going daily. Then I moved to Mexico with one month worth of morphine, now it's five months and still some left but I'm not over withdrawal, just switched to Kratom, Pregabalin and Memantine.

Yeah, the war on drugs is bullshit and intoxicates the minds of people who don't know better about drugs. Even some addicts repeat that BS and see their habit as evil and support criminalization of dealers or even consuments. Indeed criminalization never solved anything, just see alcohol prohibition... they should sell all the stuff in pharmacies again like in old age of pharmacy "non addictive" heroin.

Overdoses would drop if people had access to pure stuff because then they'd know how much to use but nowadays it's Russian roulette to buy heroin off random people, bad luck and it contains fentanyl hotspots and you're dead. That's war on drugs in its purest. Fuck Nixon.

 

[Xorkoth]

That's what I was afraid of
Like the brand but not the black liquid. Does it list an amount for also
7-OH mitragynine?

yeah there is about 7mg of 7-HO-M per capsule. Technically it says "less than 7mg" which is kinda weird but I am assuming it means around 7. Strange because they always list exact mitragynine content but every product that lists 7-HO-M says "less than X%" on it for that.

Makes sense otherwise Kratom would be ostracized if it caused overdoses, hounded and chased into the shadows with all the cool drugs. I'm joking kratom is cool. For now

To my knowledge kratom hasn't ever caused any sort of dangerous overdose in humans. It does not depress breathing at all which is how opiates cause overdose deaths so I believe that is why. Not that you can't dose too much, you easily can, and it's unpleasant because it makes you feel nauseous and dizzy and dysphoric. But it's not dangerous.

Kratom is very unpredictable. The only thing you're guaranteed to feel is about 10 minutes wondering does this feel like one Vicodin or two? I never forget when Joe Rogan said it made him so high that he couldn't believe it was available in stores. I wanted to knock him on the head and say I can't believe you get DMT for free everynight

Back when my opiate receptors were virgins and I did kratom in the traditional method (by brewing substantially larger doses of crushed leaf than when eating raw powder, in 2 x 20 minute simmering extractions, and discarding the leaf matter - using 12-18 gram doses, depending on tolerance level), I would get so high, it actually to this day was some of my absolute best opiate experiences and overall drug experiences of my life. I can't get that sort of high anymore, since I ruined my receptors over many years of kratom addiction followed by full agonist opiate addiction. But for those who are opiate naive, when dosing the traditional way (not consuming the leaf material seems to allow for substantially higher doses without the dizziness/shittiness setting in), kratom can produce a very euphoric and pleasurable high. it wasn't just me either, all of my friends I introduced to it absolutely loved it, it was a daily ritual we all looed forward to greatly. Every time for the first 6 months of using it, it felt similar to a cocaine rush on the come-up, we would start chatting nonstop and bouncing around the room. Then after an hour it would settle into a strong, semi-nodding opioid high, especially if you smoked some weed with it.

The first time I ever did it, I bought 10 grams from a head shop. No one knew what it was, and there were only a few reports on Erowid to go by. I brewed it up the traditional way (the only way I saw any reports of preparing it - toss and wash was not a thing then), drank it, and got in my friend's car to drive around and smoke weed. About 45 minutes in I realized I felt AMAZING, I was gushing to my friend about how amazing I felt and how this was some of the best I'd ever felt. I got really nauseous and he pulled over and I puked a couple of times, then kept feeling great for a few hours.

 

[darvocet21]

yeah there is about 7mg of 7-HO-M per capsule. Technically it says "less than 7mg" which is kinda weird but I am assuming it means around 7. Strange because they always list exact mitragynine content but every product that lists 7-HO-M says "less than X%" on it for that.



To my knowledge kratom hasn't ever caused any sort of dangerous overdose in humans. It does not depress breathing at all which is how opiates cause overdose deaths so I believe that is why. Not that you can't dose too much, you easily can, and it's unpleasant because it makes you feel nauseous and dizzy and dysphoric. But it's not dangerous.



Back when my opiate receptors were virgins and I did kratom in the traditional method (by brewing substantially larger doses of crushed leaf than when eating raw powder, in 2 x 20 minute simmering extractions, and discarding the leaf matter - using 12-18 gram doses, depending on tolerance level), I would get so high, it actually to this day was some of my absolute best opiate experiences and overall drug experiences of my life. I can't get that sort of high anymore, since I ruined my receptors over many years of kratom addiction followed by full agonist opiate addiction. But for those who are opiate naive, when dosing the traditional way (not consuming the leaf material seems to allow for substantially higher doses without the dizziness/shittiness setting in), kratom can produce a very euphoric and pleasurable high. it wasn't just me either, all of my friends I introduced to it absolutely loved it, it was a daily ritual we all looed forward to greatly. Every time for the first 6 months of using it, it felt similar to a cocaine rush on the come-up, we would start chatting nonstop and bouncing around the room. Then after an hour it would settle into a strong, semi-nodding opioid high, especially if you smoked some weed with it.

The first time I ever did it, I bought 10 grams from a head shop. No one knew what it was, and there were only a few reports on Erowid to go by. I brewed it up the traditional way (the only way I saw any reports of preparing it - toss and wash was not a thing then), drank it, and got in my friend's car to drive around and smoke weed. About 45 minutes in I realized I felt AMAZING, I was gushing to my friend about how amazing I felt and how this was some of the best I'd ever felt. I got really nauseous and he pulled over and I puked a couple of times, then kept feeling great for a few hours.

Reminded of 90s discovery poppy pods in the dried section of a local flower shop. For a few months I became their best customer