Misc Why does overconsumption of caffeine cause me to fatigue in sports?

[Mycophile]

I know this info SHOULD be available online, but even after looking it up I have not gotten a satisfactory answer.

I consume WAY too much caffeine, usually a MINIMUM of 4 or 5 cups of coffee a day and sometimes as much as 8 or 9, and do martial arts and various contact sports.

I have consistently found throughout the years that if I consume more than 5 cups of coffee in a day it is almost impossible for me to perform well athletically.

No matter HOW much water or gatorade I have had along with my coffee to try to prevent dehydration once I start training or exercising ALMOST IMMEDIATELY my arms and legs will cramp up and I'll feel like I have run 5 miles and lifted a shit load of heavyweight even before I've finished warming up and I'll gas out aerobically and lose to guys who I am MUCH better than.

BUT...IF I can keep my caffeine consumption under 5 cups a day I perform quite well and rarely if ever have these problems.


I have tried to quit over the years but been unable to do it and find that even moderating is quite hard but it's my goal to keep my intake to no more than 4 cups a day so this won't happen and I think I can eventually get there.

I want to know:

1) What causes this to happen medically speaking??

2) What can I do about it?? (Other than ONLY moderating, I'd like to know if any other supplements like maybe Pedialite or something else like extra Potassium or Magnesium which I already take could help).


There's a few things I think could be doing it:

1) Dehydration

2) Raised blood pressure

3) Raised body temperature


Not sure what else.


I think it is probably dehydration because dehydration causes muscle cramping and I sweat SO much more than I should because of all the caffeine but I also know that it makes my blood pressure and body temperature go up and I'm wondering if that's also a problem.


The odd thing is that VERY few people I know who drink caffeine have had this problem!!!

I've only talked to a couple people who have experienced it but most people say it's never happened to them and are skeptical that it even CAN happen as they think caffeine only helps performance!!!

Maybe it's cause very few people consume as much caffeine as me lol...but still...searching online has led to VERY few answers even when I put in things like "caffeine and athletic fatigue".

All I get are that it's dehydrating and can cause fatigue from a crash.


Anyone have MORE CONCRETE answers as to exactly what happens in the body when a person consumes more than 400mgs of caffeine in a day and then tries to take part in serious sports that require strength, speed and cardio???

 

[Mycophile]

I'm sure someone like Sekio will have a theory on this.

I really doubt there could be that many reasons.

Probably just dehydration right??

 

[SluttyPeach]

Found this on the internet. I don't know anything about it but this may help you =)

http://www.livestrong.com/article/541881-caffeine-and-muscle-cramps/

 

[Mycophile]

Found this on the internet. I don't know anything about it but this may help you =)

http://www.livestrong.com/article/541881-caffeine-and-muscle-cramps/

THANK!!

That's the info I've been searching for for YEARS!!

So the mystery is solved, it seems that most if not all of it is caused by dehydration, or at the very least loss of nutrients through sweat and water loss leading to muscle cramping and interrupted messages to the spinal cord causing muscles to contract faster and tension to build in the muscles involuntarily as well which I've noticed.

I'm MUCH more tense on caffeine obviously.

What I STILL don't get though is why sometimes I have clear urine, which is a sign that one is NOT dehydrated, on days I overconsume coffee and STILL gas out and have cramps when training???

Maybe there's a bit more to it than JUST dehydration.

Does anyone know??

And can anyone discern from this info whether or not there might be any other supplements I can take to help with this issue if I DO fuck up and drink too much caffeine??

Or is drinking less coffee the ONLY solution??

Obvioulsy I am going to try to drink less to solve the problem, but I'd like to know if anything else could help.

If anyone has any theories as to what else could help and why I have clear urine while still experiencing these issues please post.

 

[Listening]

This may not be the same for you, but: I have previously had lots of cramping issues (foot cramps) when consuming too much alcohol. Dehydration was only part of the problem. I finally solved the issue when, in addition to staying well-hydrated, I started taking a multi-mineral daily. BAM. Haven't had those types of cramps since.

 

[legaluser]

also coffee isnt good for your stomach so 5+ cups a day could be leading to your body not absorbing nutrients, even water, as well so your body is under performing due to so much caffeine coffee it has to get rid of.

have you looked into take caffeine pills, or other supplement that give you energy but dont have anywhere near as much calories or strain on your stomach? pure caffeine, hordeine, etc.

You should look into stuff like that since the calories from coffee cant be all that good for your working out, id rather take pure caffeine powder, but itd still come with problems, id also try ur best to do less caffeine maybe make it a once a day kinda thing.

 

[Mad Dash]

Look caffeine does a lot of things to your body and one of them is increasing your heart rate. Imagine your resting heart rate at around 60-70 BPM right? When you run you are at 120-150 BPM. Well add caffeine to that mixture and you are talking a potential 30-60 BPM you are putting yourself above the threshold for a stable heart rate. That is why you don't take pre-workout supplements before cardio because you are just going to hurt yourself. When I take my PWS I only use it for weight lifting because it puts me in the weight loss zone reducing the need for cardio so I can continue to put on muscle instead of burning it off. So cut some of the damn caffeine out! lol

 

[sekio]

coffee is not that strong of a dehydrating agent, it is after all pretty much 95% water by mass.

the simple answer is, caffeine increases your heart rate/blood pressure/adrenaline levels as part of its effects, if you combine it with strenuous physical excercise you're going to push your body out of its normal operating parameters. because elevated levels of adrenaline etc alter cardiac parameters (pumping force, heart rate, respiratory rate and depth) heavy caffeine usage will effectively make a mild jog into a strenuous sprint, from your body's perspective. this is also related to how overconsumption of caffeine can result in tremor, twitching, feeling 'on edge' etc.

the obvious answer to fixing this issue is consuming less caffeine pre-workout, or giving a longer period of time between consuming caffeinated substances and excercise to allow some of the caffeine to metabolize/excrete. or get involved in high intensity training? there's not really much point in consuming a substance to mask the effects either. but on paper beta blockers would be effective, id' guess.

 

[Mycophile]

coffee is not that strong of a dehydrating agent, it is after all pretty much 95% water by mass.

the simple answer is, caffeine increases your heart rate/blood pressure/adrenaline levels as part of its effects, if you combine it with strenuous physical excercise you're going to push your body out of its normal operating parameters. because elevated levels of adrenaline etc alter cardiac parameters (pumping force, heart rate, respiratory rate and depth) heavy caffeine usage will effectively make a mild jog into a strenuous sprint, from your body's perspective. this is also related to how overconsumption of caffeine can result in tremor, twitching, feeling 'on edge' etc.

the obvious answer to fixing this issue is consuming less caffeine pre-workout, or giving a longer period of time between consuming caffeinated substances and excercise to allow some of the caffeine to metabolize/excrete. or get involved in high intensity training? there's not really much point in consuming a substance to mask the effects either. but on paper beta blockers would be effective, id' guess.

Thanks for responding.

So it all has to do with increased heart rate, blood pressure and adrenaline?

So do you think reducing my caffeine intake to no more than 4 cups of coffee a day would be sufficient to prevent me from gassing out when I exercise??

I mean...it usually does...but then the question becomes am I STILL going to perform Worse on 3 or 4 cups of coffee than I would on 2?? And on 2 am I still going to perform worse than one None??

Or do you think there is some kind of a point at which maybe 2 or 3 cups of coffee isn't going to make you worse off than none??

And what do you think about the quotes below from the link??

These suggest that muscle cramps are caused by loss of nutrients the body needs through fluid and I PERSONALLY can attest to the increased body temperature being an issue.

When I have too much coffee I'll be pouring sweat from doing NOTHING and feel like crap but when I have less I'm fine.

It makes a cool day feel hot, which can only be bad when you are excercising in a hot environment and it makes me less tolerant to heat.

The article also mentions "involuntary muscle contraction" which I know is an issue cause I always feel SUPER tense like I am clenching my muscles which would be more relaxed without the caffeine.

So what do you think about these factors as it relates??

Would you agree that involuntary muscle contraction, increased body heat and loss of nutrients through sweat could also play parts in my fatigue??


Also, what do you mean "high intensity training"??

Can you give an example? Because my training can already get pretty high intensity.

**MOST IMPORTANTLY- how do you think I should best go about figuring out the right amount of caffeine to consume before exercise given that I'm dependent on it?? (Again, this article says not to exceed 4 cups daily and that seems to be the standard that the Mayo Clinic supports:



"Caffeine may induce muscle twitching and cramps when you consume an excess amount of it. Other factors involved in muscle cramps include hot weather, loss of fluids or nutrients in the body and your body’s condition. You may experience muscle fatigue if you aren’t properly conditioned and the muscles cannot contract and tighten more effectively during exercise. Your muscle’s oxygen supply may deplete, leading to spasms. Your spinal cord reflexes are altered and continue to stimulate the muscle to keep contracting. Your caffeine intake may contribute to the cramping caused by these factors.

Involuntary Contracting

Involuntary muscle contracting in which the muscle does not relax leads to muscle cramps.

• 
  

Heat and Dehydration

Caffeine may lead to excess urination, which can contribute to dehydration. Caffeine also increases body temperature. Dehydration and heat play a major role in causing muscle cramps. Working or exercising in intense heat can lead to dehydration and a depletion of salt and minerals because your sweat drains your body’s fluids."

 

[Mycophile]

also coffee isnt good for your stomach so 5+ cups a day could be leading to your body not absorbing nutrients, even water, as well so your body is under performing due to so much caffeine coffee it has to get rid of.

have you looked into take caffeine pills, or other supplement that give you energy but dont have anywhere near as much calories or strain on your stomach? pure caffeine, hordeine, etc.

You should look into stuff like that since the calories from coffee cant be all that good for your working out, id rather take pure caffeine powder, but itd still come with problems, id also try ur best to do less caffeine maybe make it a once a day kinda thing.

Coffee doesn't have calories other than what you add to it in the way of milk, sugar, etc.

And I respond WORSE to caffeine pills than coffee or tea.

The only caffeinated product I think is probably more healthy than coffee is tea or Kombucha, but I just need to reduce my consumption I think, not switch products.

 

[legaluser]

Coffee doesn't have calories other than what you add to it in the way of milk, sugar, etc.

And I respond WORSE to caffeine pills than coffee or tea.

The only caffeinated product I think is probably more healthy than coffee is tea or Kombucha, but I just need to reduce my consumption I think, not switch products.

ya a plain cup of coffee has like 1-3 calories in it or something, but almost everyone puts milk, sugar and corn syurp of some kind for some kind of flavour and soon its like 200 calories, but if your always have just completely plain coffee then its about the same calories as a caffeine pill.

Personally im not a caffeine addict, thank god, but i use caffeine sometimes, but im not an everyday "I NEED COFFEE TO GET MY DAY STARTED" kind of guy.

honestly my personal advice is to start tapering the coffee and get it down to like 1 cup a day if you insist, or none if you can take it. caffeine isnt good for your stomach, and coffee is even worse

Have you heard of hordenine, I like small doses of caffeine, like 20mg, and a small dose of hordenine 30-40mg, and a dose of noopept like 15mg and a dose of piracetem like 15mg, i feel very focused and smooth energy given to me, honestly can absorb information and remember things, and focus on many things at once significantly better than without it. as well as remember what happened the next day, my recollection is much better.

My advice is to cut back and try out some of the things i listed, get down to 1 cup a day or none imo.

 

[Mycophile]

ya a plain cup of coffee has like 1-3 calories in it or something, but almost everyone puts milk, sugar and corn syurp of some kind for some kind of flavour and soon its like 200 calories, but if your always have just completely plain coffee then its about the same calories as a caffeine pill.

Personally im not a caffeine addict, thank god, but i use caffeine sometimes, but im not an everyday "I NEED COFFEE TO GET MY DAY STARTED" kind of guy.

honestly my personal advice is to start tapering the coffee and get it down to like 1 cup a day if you insist, or none if you can take it. caffeine isnt good for your stomach, and coffee is even worse

Have you heard of hordenine, I like small doses of caffeine, like 20mg, and a small dose of hordenine 30-40mg, and a dose of noopept like 15mg and a dose of piracetem like 15mg, i feel very focused and smooth energy given to me, honestly can absorb information and remember things, and focus on many things at once significantly better than without it. as well as remember what happened the next day, my recollection is much better.

My advice is to cut back and try out some of the things i listed, get down to 1 cup a day or none imo.

I'm just going to try to get to no more than 4 cups a day.

The link above says that amount is safe daily and I don't usually gas out from that amount, MAYBE 3 in time but I honestly don't think I CAN get down to 1 cup a day, i am too dependent right now.

All these other things sound interesting, but I don't really feel like I can switch to another product now as my dependence on caffeine is too strong.

I also don't add anything other an about 1/8th a cup of milk to my coffee, so it has about 10 calories in it.

 

[Mycophile]

Sekio: When you have time could you please respond to my 2nd post that is a few posts above this one addressed to you??

I had a few more questions regarding how much caffeine you think is safe to consume without causing fatigue in sports and how to figure that out, whether or not an individually is ALWAYS less effective in sports than that would be without coffee even if they only have a few cups, and your opinions on the quotes I gave regarding other reasons it could cause someone to fatigue like overheating due to sweating out nutrients and muscle cramping from involuntary muscle contraction.

Thanks

 

[SmokingAces]

I think you could just leave it at you are drinking too much caffeine and it's becoming counter productive.

 

[sekio]

So do you think reducing my caffeine intake to no more than 4 cups of coffee a day would be sufficient to prevent me from gassing out when I exercise??

I mean...it usually does...but then the question becomes am I STILL going to perform Worse on 3 or 4 cups of coffee than I would on 2?? And on 2 am I still going to perform worse than one None??

Or do you think there is some kind of a point at which maybe 2 or 3 cups of coffee isn't going to make you worse off than none??

You kind of answered your own question there. If you're too tweaked out to run and you get winded easily you will perform much worse than if you are not. Everyone's physiology is different and while one person may be able to tolerate drinking 4 cups of coffee and exercising, it can't be expected that everyone will be able to tolerate it.

Do the experiment, and let us know? To be honest it's always easier for you to do it than for me to predict how it will play out

overheating due to sweating out nutrients and muscle cramping from involuntary muscle contraction.

these are already a concern if you overexert yourself, caffeine administration doesn't make these much different in terms of risk.
i don't think it's necessarily nutrients you're losing in your sweat. it's mostly salt that is the big concern. (lose too much salt and you fuck your fluid balance up, e.g. why gatorade is salty)

how do you think I should best go about figuring out the right amount of caffeine to consume before exercise given that I'm dependent on it??

take the minimum dosage you need to feel alert and awake? The dose of caffeine used in studies to enhance athletic performance in unhabituated individuals is 6mg/kg.

 

[Mycophile]

You kind of answered your own question there. If you're too tweaked out to run and you get winded easily you will perform much worse than if you are not. Everyone's physiology is different and while one person may be able to tolerate drinking 4 cups of coffee and exercising, it can't be expected that everyone will be able to tolerate it.

Do the experiment, and let us know? To be honest it's always easier for you to do it than for me to predict how it will play out



these are already a concern if you overexert yourself, caffeine administration doesn't make these much different in terms of risk.
i don't think it's necessarily nutrients you're losing in your sweat. it's mostly salt that is the big concern. (lose too much salt and you fuck your fluid balance up, e.g. why gatorade is salty)



take the minimum dosage you need to feel alert and awake? The dose of caffeine used in studies to enhance athletic performance in unhabituated individuals is 6mg/kg.

The bolded part confuses me.

Do you mean 6mgs of caffeine for each killigram a person weighs??

Well I weight 81kgs so that would come out to equaling 486mgs of caffeine which is about 5 cups and that amount usually causes me to fatigue pretty quickly (not as bad as more than that mind you) and I'm actually a HABITUATED person meaning that for unhabituated people that would CERTAINLY cause them to fatigue faster.

Did I understand the math/your comment correctly??

Also, just a couple other questions:


Lets say that I find that 4 cups of coffee doesn't SEEM to fatigue me too much...by that token does that mean that I will NECESSARILY perform better athletically on 3 cups than 4, and on 2 cups than 3, and on ZERO cups than One???

Or do you think there is a cut off, a point at which a low enough amount of caffeine will have ZERO or ALMOST zero negative effect on one's athletic performance???

I know that SOME studies say minimal amounts of caffeine ENHANCE athletic performance but I'm still not sure how much.

As someone who feels they can't COMPLETELY quit caffeine, but who wants to perform his ABSOLUTE BEST...even if I can get my intake down to an amount that doesn't SEEM to negatively effect me, it bothers me that I might STILL be performing worse than someone who drinks none.

What is your opinion on this??

And do you think there are low enough doses of caffeine that might not cause a great deal of involuntary muscle contraction that I personally have experienced and which the article mentions??


FINALLY--You mentioned doing high intensity training as something that could help me and I wanted to understand your logic:

You said that due to increased heart rate/blood pressure/ etc that more caffeine makes a jog feel like a sprint and a sprint feel like a marathon etc as the heart and muscles just can't handle it.

SO...by that token...does it mean that the better shape one is in the better they will be able to perform on larger amounts of coffee???

Could it be that someone with an equal tolerance to caffeine as me who also has a predisposition for excessive consumption but who is in TWICE AS GOOD SHAPE AS ME might not have trouble performing athletically on 600mgs of caffeine while I might become completely fatigued on the same amount???

Do you think that along with lowering caffeine intake that getting in better shape will lessen the fatigue I have from overconsumption of caffeine??


I'll be patient and wait for your responses.

Thanks

 

[Mad Dash]

I guess you missed my post saying essentially the same thing but I literally told you an exact sign to look for. BPM

First you need to find your resting heart rate, then you need to find your max heart. Put it in this calculator and it will show you the different optimal target heart rate zones for you personally. Then you can start by drinking different amount of coffee before your runs and finding out how much is too much by seeing if 2 or 3 cups puts you out of your optimal heart rate zone.

http://www.runningforfitness.org/ca...rs/hrzone?minHR=60&maxHR=192&Submit=Calculate

BTW Before the army I was a personal trainer, in the army I was the winner of the Iron Soldier award and heard of the warrior athlete program in my platoon. So trust me when I tell you I know what I am talking about.

 

[Mycophile]

I guess you missed my post saying essentially the same thing but I literally told you an exact sign to look for. BPM

First you need to find your resting heart rate, then you need to find your max heart. Put it in this calculator and it will show you the different optimal target heart rate zones for you personally. Then you can start by drinking different amount of coffee before your runs and finding out how much is too much by seeing if 2 or 3 cups puts you out of your optimal heart rate zone.

http://www.runningforfitness.org/ca...rs/hrzone?minHR=60&maxHR=192&Submit=Calculate

BTW Before the army I was a personal trainer, in the army I was the winner of the Iron Soldier award and heard of the warrior athlete program in my platoon. So trust me when I tell you I know what I am talking about.

Thanks man, that info ought to really help!!

And of course I believe that you know what you are talking about if you did all that.

Why would I question that?

But how do I figure out what my max heart rate is?

And are you saying that after I drink a certain amount of coffee and then exercise hard on it that I should then take my Heart rate and if it is above what my max heart rate would be WITHOUT coffee than that is too much??

If so though, I ALWAYS drink coffee, so do I need to know what my max heart rate would be without coffee??

Cause if so I wouldn't know how to find out.

 

[Mycophile]

Sekio, when you get a chance could you please respond to the last post I made?

It has some different questions than before.

Thanks

 

[sekio]

You're overthinking this way too much myco.

That number of 6mg/kg was from a study I read. That is the dose used in professional atrhletes to measure the effects of caffeine. Some studies use less. It's not a typo. I would imagine, however, sprinters and swimmers don't weigh so much.

If that number seems too high for you then don't take as much.

IMO, caffeine intake is not going to be a deciding factor for your athletic performance unless you are competing at a very high level against people who are all training seriously hard. The average performance gain can range from 0 to just below 10% depending on what you're measuring and what study you're looking at. Go do a search in PubMed or Google Scholar for 'caffeine athletic performance'.

You ask so many questions that can only be answered by experimentation on yourself. I can't say for sure what the optimum dosage of caffeine is for you. Nobody can but you. So go out there and keep a journal or something. Take enough caffeine to make you awake and alert but not so much as to cause you to feel winded. Keep records of how you feel.

Can professional athletes tolerate higher caffeine doses than normal people? Probably. Is there an equation to figure out the maximum caffeine dosage, maximum tolerable heart rate, how much your athletic performance will change, where the lowest dose of caffeine that causes side effects is, etc? Nope. There are far too many variables and it differs between individuals widely.

And don't bump threads... I'll read them eventually.