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Why do you do PEDs?

What’s your goal?


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    4

Hal_1ncandenza

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Hi
Never done anything more than supplements (optygen/beta al, mv, beets juice, whey etc), but as a lifelong athlete in endurance and combat sports, I’ve always had a strong curiosity for stuff like epo and hgh.

What do you all do, and why?
Are the health risks worth it?
How do you justify PED use in competition?
No judgement here, just curiosity!
 

Swim15

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What do you all do, and why?

about every anabolic compound at some point including HGH and peptides. Sports performance, to look a certain way, and feel good. Think a better question is why not use them? Helps create a regimented lifestyle.


Are the health risks worth it? -

Risks are minimal if used appropriately and, IMO, less than the average sedentary American lifestyle. Trade average for above average and be a better, healthier person.


How do you justify PED use in competition? -

There isn’t a sports organization on the planet where people aren’t using PED’s. I’ve personally helped NCAA, pro, and Olympic athletes design drug protocols to get around drug testing. PEDs are the rule, not the exception in most sports.
 

Serotonin101

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Hi
Never done anything more than supplements (optygen/beta al, mv, beets juice, whey etc), but as a lifelong athlete in endurance and combat sports, I’ve always had a strong curiosity for stuff like epo and hgh.

What do you all do, and why?
Are the health risks worth it?
How do you justify PED use in competition?
No judgement here, just curiosity!
What do I do: aas, insulin, peptides and gh when I can afford it
Risks worth it: to me they are but I do my best to minimize risks. I'm about qualify over quantity when it comes to my time on this earth
Ped use in competition: everyone uses something, the ones who don't get caught are just luckier/smarter than the ones who do
 

Mycophile

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What do I do: aas, insulin, peptides and gh when I can afford it
Risks worth it: to me they are but I do my best to minimize risks. I'm about qualify over quantity when it comes to my time on this earth
Ped use in competition: everyone uses something, the ones who don't get caught are just luckier/smarter than the ones who do
I have never used PEDs, but when I hear this I feel like pointing out that it's not always true.

My MMA instructor fought at quite a high level in pro mma and never used a PED in his life and defeated those who did, and he currently trains with someone very well known who competes on one of the highest stages in the world who has never used PEDs and also defeats those who do.

Most people do use them, but there are those who don't, and knowing that they have to go up against those who are using makes me feel kind of bad for those who don't.

I think all sports orgs should have a PED league and a non-PED league, but that will never happen lol.
 

Swim15

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I have never used PEDs, but when I hear this I feel like pointing out that it's not always true.

My MMA instructor fought at quite a high level in pro mma and never used a PED in his life and defeated those who did, and he currently trains with someone very well known who competes on one of the highest stages in the world who has never used PEDs and also defeats those who do.

Most people do use them, but there are those who don't, and knowing that they have to go up against those who are using makes me feel kind of bad for those who don't.

I think all sports orgs should have a PED league and a non-PED league, but that will never happen lol.
I’d probably point out that you don’t know if your instructor did or did not use PED’s. Anyone can say anything and anyone can believe them but to suggest that someone is incapable of lying very well their entire life is naive at best and impossible to prove. Trust is great but the only person on the planet that knows for sure is the athlete themself.

That said, I don’t think it matters personally. It’s a matter of how any given person thinks about it but at the end of the day an athlete either won or they didn’t. Maybe the person with the higher grade used Adderall, maybe the solider on the battlefield had a better weapon. It’s all synonymous in the fact that the only thing remembered is who won and not how or why.

Anyone thrown into any form of competition should use all means available to them to win. If someone chooses not to use something to gain an advantage that their opponent did, it’s commendable at best but simply their choice at the end of the day and doesn’t make them a better or worse person. Simply their choice.
 

Mycophile

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I’d probably point out that you don’t know if your instructor did or did not use PED’s. Anyone can say anything and anyone can believe them but to suggest that someone is incapable of lying very well their entire life is naive at best and impossible to prove. Trust is great but the only person on the planet that knows for sure is the athlete themself.

That said, I don’t think it matters personally. It’s a matter of how any given person thinks about it but at the end of the day an athlete either won or they didn’t. Maybe the person with the higher grade used Adderall, maybe the solider on the battlefield had a better weapon. It’s all synonymous in the fact that the only thing remembered is who won and not how or why.

Anyone thrown into any form of competition should use all means available to them to win. If someone chooses not to use something to gain an advantage that their opponent did, it’s commendable at best but simply their choice at the end of the day and doesn’t make them a better or worse person. Simply their choice.
I definitely can know whether or not my instructor has.

He's one of my best friends in the entire world, completely straight edge, and I know him well enough that I'd literally bet 1,000 dollars it's the case.

Honestly, I find it mildly insulting that you are suggesting someone I know so well would be lying to me. I mean, i get it, people lie all the time, but no, he is not lying.

Literally, if I thought one of my big toes would get cut off if i was wrong I'd be betting he is telling the truth. Guy has never drank a beer, smoked a joint, etc, and clean athletes DO exist. To say that they don't is an impossibility.

I could be wrong, but the chances percentage wise that I am right are extremely high with how well we know eachother.

I would have to disagree with you on your morals though.

MMA is a sport, it's not war, and using PEDs is against the rules.

We can debate whether or not it should be, but it is against the rules, and it's cheating, so that's just not cool.

However, that is pro MMA, whereas amateur, which i have a slim chance of ever pulling off anyway, does not have those rules because no one gets paid.

You have the same mindset that a large percentage of athletes in sports have these days, the old ''if you're not cheating you're not trying'' outlook, but i do not necessarily agree with it.


If you want to go that far you could take it REALLY far.

I mean, what about the men who have transitioned into women and are now beating up other women in MMA?

Fallon Fox is doing that and I see it as totally wrong.

What about sneaking some brass knuckles under your glove to knock your opponent out?

What about intentionally pulling off an eye poke, which is obviously against the rules, because you think you can get away with it, and then use that to win?

I am pretty sure that unless you are completely amoral that there would be a certain point at which you would consider it unfair to do something in a certain sport.

The rules for PEDs and other things are designed to level the playing field to the point where it's a fighter or athletes NATURAL abilities that allow them to shine, and not artificial tools or substances.

The idea is to TRULY find out who the better athlete/fighter is, not to figure out who can manipulate all the rules and get away with it.

If this is a war we in are in it is different, but we are talking sports.

And as far is it being the person's ''choice'' not to use a substance, maybe it's not really what they want, but they are afraid of the side effects of the drug, or perhaps they have a health condition which makes taking that drug impossible but makes it possible for their opponent.

In such a case, that is morally wrong IMO.

I think there should be a PED league and a non-PED league, but one way or another, sports have rules, and i believe the athletes should abide by them.

You could literally go to insane lengths otherwise like putting roofies in your opponent's water so he's too out of it to consciously defend himself in the ring or grease yourself up so your opponent can't grab onto you or do something outside the ring to interfere with your opponent's cornerman's ability to make it there on time to coach his fighter.

You could pay off the ref to stop the fight so you win, you could send a death threat to the guy's wife so he finds out about it right before the fight and is distracted, or you could try to bite the guy when the ref isn't looking, and if somehow you get away with it and win, i don't see any of that as legit, nor do i think most fighters or athletes could at the end of the day look themselves in the mirror and feel that they truly bested their opponent or proved much of anything about their skill level being superior to their opponents' by sinking to such lows.

The possibilities for cheating could be ENDLESS, and i very much doubt you'd be cool with every possible way a person could cheat in any and all sports.

I also do not think that whether or not the person won is the only thing remembered, and currently in MMA rule breaking antics by lots of top fighters are not being accepted.
 
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Swim15

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Think that was taken a little too far off topic lol. My point is that the theory of all of these conversations is the same and yes, I’m implying your best friend could lie to you. I know guys who have been married for 20 years whose wives still don’t know they use PEDs. Nature of the beast at times since surveys have shown a lot of people would admit to hard drug use before PED use. The fact he is so straight edged furthers my point that you would never know if he had ever used drugs.

My point is that no matter what, no matter the situation. It is impossible for you or anyone else in existence to say with 100% certainty that you KNOW something about someone else because you are not them. Only that person knows. Period. Or I guess you could argue that person and God.

Compare it to quantum physics or any other scientific field maybe. It’s impossible to know a particles spin until it is observed and in this case you can’t observe someone else for 100% of their life.

Also case in point, $1000 doesn’t sound very sure. Would you be willing to bet your life or your families life? No matter how certain I was of anything - even the sun coming up tomorrow - I wouldn’t bet my child’s life on it if I had a child.



As far as competing, no I’m not suggesting someone hire a hit man to take out their opponents. My argument was implied to be limited to all choices an athlete can make that affect only themselves and no one else. Think of it as a libertarian view on athletes.

Drug free sport is an illusion our society creates in order to make people feel good but does not actually exist. Therefore, rules don’t apply when it’s common knowledge the majority are breaking them. It’s obviously fine if an athlete wants to compete drug free, they just need to know the majority is not and everyone at a high level knows that.
 
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Hal_1ncandenza

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Yea, but it sounds like there is no reason for him to believe his coach is lying. You can make assumptions about ones choices based on previous experience with that person and judgements of their character

The golden era of doping in cycling lead to a massive backlash against the sport that saw races, sponsors, and even amateur leagues evaporate. Not EVERYONE doped during that era (people like Phil Gaimon come to mind) and it was harder for those who did. Today racing is as clean as it’s been in a few decades, and I personally know a couple pro athletes who would take issue with the “everyone does it so it’s okay” rationalization you’ve put forth. The ubiquity of people doing a moral wrong does not negate the immorality of their act.

Of course these same athletes would acknowledge that their, and most other sports, are not truly meritocratic—being wealthy or well connected provides a huge structural advantage early in ones career. But these issues are a lot more amorphous than doping. Doping is something that literally can be eliminated—and why shouldn’t we eliminate it? Sport shouldn’t come to be defined by an arms race for the best PEDs, kids shouldn’t be pressured to add potentially harmful substances to feel like they can compete in what is an otherwise healthy and fulfilling pursuit.
 
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Serotonin101

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Peds aren't always steroids. Wada has a cap on caffeine intake and other cns stimulants. Nootropics are peds. Etc.
 

Swim15

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Either way my point still stands. No one can say with 100% infallible certainty anything about anyone besides themselves. Doing so is naive at best.

You’re also assuming that breaking a rule is automatically morally wrong which I don’t think is a good assumption. Philosophically there are many laws and rule ‘on the book’ that no one follows because we aren’t expected to. To a great extent, the rules that we follow are dictated by societal norms so saying that breaking any rule is morally wrong is invalid.

They set speed limits low because in our society, speeding 5-10mpg over the speed limit is the norm and expected. In Australia, for example, that largely isn’t the case.

In Singapore you don’t spit gum out on the street or you get a beating - if that law were here in the US it would be ignored and not enforced.

Here’s a list of crazy laws from business insider - obviously no one follows these. And these are LAWS, not simply rules by a sporting organization.



I get your point but philosophically your argument doesn’t hold up. Our society is run in such a way that we need to evaluate laws using our own judgement and common sense while weighing the repercussions of getting caught against the expectation, or not, that they will be followed.

I would contend that it’s understood that PEDs are the rule, not the exception, in almost every high level sport in the world. Athletes know it and orgs know it whether they admit it or not.

Case in point - one of my friends that I went to a big D1 school with that played football had endless stories about how the coaches got too players around PED tests. Everyone else was on their own.

However, here we are talking about amateur MMA where the athletes aren’t even tested so it really doesn’t even apply in this situation.
 

Hal_1ncandenza

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I said he has good reason to believe his coach wasn’t doping. Neither of us have been to the moon, but we have good reason to believe it isn’t made of Swiss cheese.

No, I’m talking about all sports, not just amateur MMA.

I didn’t say doping is immoral because it’s illegal. Please locate my argument in my post, and refute it, before you say that it’s “philosophically invalid.”
 

Swim15

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I said he has good reason to believe his coach wasn’t doping. Neither of us have been to the moon, but we have good reason to believe it isn’t made of Swiss cheese.

No, I’m talking about all sports, not just amateur MMA.

I didn’t say doping is immoral because it’s illegal. Please locate my argument in my post, and refute it, before you say that it’s “philosophically invalid.”
Yes, of course he has good reason and that’s fine. He can, and probably should, trust him a great deal. However, he said that he can “definitely can know whether or not my instructor has.” - By definition he cannot know with 100% certainty because he is not his coach.

You said that “The ubiquity of people doing a moral wrong does not negate the immorality of their act.”

I’m saying that whether or not it’s immoral is going to come down to individual beliefs as there’s no objective standard to say that it is.
 

Hal_1ncandenza

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Let me clarify. I think people ought not to behave in a way that is harmful to others. Rape is wrong; this is an objective moral truth. The moral status of PED use is more elusive as you could argue, that in some cases there are no victims I.e. non-competition use. But when there is money, pride, and integrity at stake it’s not good enough to allow something(eg EPO, TRT) which obstructs the purity of competition by advantaging those athletes with greater economic resources, rather than those with raw talent and persistence. At least that’s how I feel. I see your side of the argument, but I also saw PED use destroy the credibility of multiple sports, with far-reaching consequences outside of professional competition.
 

Swim15

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Let me clarify. I think people ought not to behave in a way that is harmful to others. Rape is wrong; this is an objective moral truth. The moral status of PED use is more elusive as you could argue, that in some cases there are no victims I.e. non-competition use. But when there is money, pride, and integrity at stake it’s not good enough to allow something(eg EPO, TRT) which obstructs the purity of competition by advantaging those athletes with greater economic resources, rather than those with raw talent and persistence. At least that’s how I feel. I see your side of the argument, but I also saw PED use destroy the credibility of multiple sports, with far-reaching consequences outside of professional competition.
I get what you’re saying but there’s still no objective moral standard to say it’s morally wrong and, if it is, to what degree.

Obviously speeding and murder are both wrong but one is acceptable and one is not. Obviously I’d argue that PED use is acceptable as it’s the current state of our sports and society.

Point taken nonetheless but it won’t ever be a reality.
 

Mycophile

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Think that was taken a little too far off topic lol. My point is that the theory of all of these conversations is the same and yes, I’m implying your best friend could lie to you. I know guys who have been married for 20 years whose wives still don’t know they use PEDs. Nature of the beast at times since surveys have shown a lot of people would admit to hard drug use before PED use. The fact he is so straight edged furthers my point that you would never know if he had ever used drugs.

My point is that no matter what, no matter the situation. It is impossible for you or anyone else in existence to say with 100% certainty that you KNOW something about someone else because you are not them. Only that person knows. Period. Or I guess you could argue that person and God.

Compare it to quantum physics or any other scientific field maybe. It’s impossible to know a particles spin until it is observed and in this case you can’t observe someone else for 100% of their life.

Also case in point, $1000 doesn’t sound very sure. Would you be willing to bet your life or your families life? No matter how certain I was of anything - even the sun coming up tomorrow - I wouldn’t bet my child’s life on it if I had a child.



As far as competing, no I’m not suggesting someone hire a hit man to take out their opponents. My argument was implied to be limited to all choices an athlete can make that affect only themselves and no one else. Think of it as a libertarian view on athletes.

Drug free sport is an illusion our society creates in order to make people feel good but does not actually exist. Therefore, rules don’t apply when it’s common knowledge the majority are breaking them. It’s obviously fine if an athlete wants to compete drug free, they just need to know the majority is not and everyone at a high level knows that.
Ok dude, think of it more like the fact that it's pretty insulting to me that you would suggest that you genuinely believe that one of the best friends I've ever had in my life and my instructor is lying to me.

I'm smart enough to figure out that people can get away with lying, so honestly for you to just say ''yeah your instructor is probably lying'' is insulting, and the kind of thing which if i personally were in your position I'd keep to myself out of not wanting to start an argument...which, i do not consider this an argument at all, but i still find that mildly insulting.

This is a guy who has been there for me at times and who I admire greatly, and I know him and you don't, so I'd say I have a better idea of whether or not he's lying than you do.

I'd be a lot more than 1,000 dollars he hasn't used PEDs too.

It's not like he had a very a long career, only about 9 fights give or take and about 8 or 9 years, but he ALMOST reached the top of the sport and beat guys who were juicing.

What bothers me is that it is basically a form of cognitive dissonance where it is necessary for PED users in sports to believe that EVERY SINGLE athlete uses PEDs to justify the use.

I mean, if one is truly ok with breaking the rules then it shouldn't matter to them that it is possible that they might be beating a clean athlete, so I think that on some level it actually does bother SOME PED users to know that they are gaining an unfair advantage or else they wouldn't even suggest that there's no way any athlete could be clean.

If you are talking probabilities then it is virtually impossible that there are no MMA fighters in the entire world who have not used PEDs.

And you're comments about ''activities that effect only themselves and no one else'' doesn't really make sense because it DOES effect the other person if you are on PEDs and they are clean, especially cause MMA is a dangerous sport, so by making the playing field more uneven you make it more dangerous for your opponent.

This is why it is so unfair that transgender athletes like Fallon Fox, who was born a man, is now really hurting REAL women in MMA.

HE has the bone structure and muscularity of a man and is unfairly benefiting from it.

It then also doesn't seem to make sense to me why one couldn't be ok with greasing themselves up so their opponent can't grab them, which some fighters do even though its' against the rules, or taking pain killers so they can't feel pain and don't need to tap when a submission is applied, or get away with doing things like grabbing the fence which is illegal, or kneeing a downed opponent which is illegal, or grabbing the opponents' shorts which is illegal etc.

Once you say that you are willing to break one rule you pretty much are saying you are willing to break all sorts of others and the only place you draw the line is based on your own morals and how far you are willing to take it and whether or not you can get caught, and very few people are psychopathic enough to take that to its' logical conclusion.

Point in case; in the UFC and other orgs you had Rousimar Palhares who STYLISTICALLY was awesome, but the guy would NEVER let go of submissions even when the opponent tapped out and so he got banned.

His reason he said that he wouldn't let go is because the rule was supposedly ''don't let go till the ref puts his hands on you'', but he took it WAY too far and would do his best to break his opponent's legs as quickly as possible so usually the ref wouldn't get there in time and the damage would be done.

NOT COOL.

Jon Jones knows that poking the eyes is illegal, so he'll stick his long arms out with outstretched fingers, cause he has greater reach than anyone, and wait for opponents to ''eye gouge themselves'' when they come in, and gets called on it, but often gets away with it. Again, not cool.

Also, it's me who would, IF i ever had the ability and didn't get re-injured, compete in amateur mma where it's not against the rules to use PEDs, whereas my instructor fought in PRO mma.

He's actually said to me ''yeah, steroids are the only drug i have ever actually considered taking'', and usually people who want to lie don't even make such statements about having thought about it but resisted because they don't want to put that thought in anyone else's head.

But i mean, logically i think you could realize that i already knew i had no way of 100 percent knowing whether or not my coach has used PEDs.

I mean come on, I can't be 100 percent sure I'm not dreaming right now lol, and i think you knew what i meant when i said it.


I get your point though about the different laws that we don't all follow and theirs lots of laws i don't agree with.

i think all drugs should be legal WHEN NOT PERFORMING SPORTS, and it's SUPER morally wrong that we can't use any drug we want, and i will ignore those laws as long as i can get away with them, but i would probably feel bad using a PED in a PRO sport against someone who isn't on one...if i could be sure.


That's why I said i wish that there was a PED league and a non-PED league, something my instructor also agrees with, but that will never happen, and even if it did i bet there would be people doping and sneaking in to the non-PED league while using them LOL.

On topic, I have mild asthma and recently in the UFC Greg Hardy got his fight overturned because he USED AN INHALER while sitting on his stool!!

i was personally REALLY pissed and offended, because

1-i don't THINK that inhalers give actual asthmatics an advantage over non-asthmatics

2-I'm not even sure if a non-asthmatic used an inhaler it would give an advantage

3--They have this rule that you can use an inhaler OUTSIDE the cage but not inside, which makes no sense to me.


Then i had to hear idiots online saying things like ''well maybe if you have asthma you just shouldn't do MMA'', which pissed me off.


So, yeah...I mean, i just see sports and games as being separate from the rest of life; they are little boxes--outside of the normal world of reality IMO where people put certain rules in place and say ''we are going to follow these rules and compete'', and if enough of those rules are not regularly followed then the entire sport breaks down completely and may as well not exist in the first place.

Wars don't have those rules, and people aren't drug tested before taking exams where Adderall can be taken, as per your examples, but i just see sports as different.


That being said....i actually can't deny that if I was a young guy and a pro mma fighter, which i'm obviously not, and the allure got to me and i thought i could get away with using steroids and peds and be able to still be physically healthy that i wouldn't do it, and to be honest i think that i probably would and would probably use the same justification that everyone else uses.

It must be incredibly mentally addictive to be able to take PEDs and work out and see these massive gains.

I myself am having a very hard time with the fact that I'm turning 40 and i'm sore a lot longer from working out than i have been in the past, and most likely if I come to believe that TRT is actually SAFE for me, affordable, and that i would not lose access at any point, then i would probably want to take it, and will keep considering it.

But anyway, I have strong doubts i could ever even do amateur mma at all, and it's not even illegal there anyway, and if TRT could SAFELY enhance my life, it's still something i'd consider, but safety and continued access would be what i'd be concerned with.
 
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Mycophile

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Peds aren't always steroids. Wada has a cap on caffeine intake and other cns stimulants. Nootropics are peds. Etc.
Yeah that stuff is ridiculous.

Greg Hardy also got in trouble for using an asthma inhaler in the ring recently, which as a mild asthmatic SERIOUSLY pissed me off.

Would an asthmatic's using an inhaler actually even give them an advantage over a non-asthmatic not using one?

What about if a non-asthmatic used an inhaler, would it give them an advantage over an asthmatic who also used one?

I'm confused about it cause i think the rule is that you can use the inhaler outside of the ring but not in the ring which is what he did, but i seriously cannot understand why that is a rule and that is SUPER unfair.

I mean, the guy has a medical condition for christ's sakes.
 

OpiateKiller

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I definitely can know whether or not my instructor has.

He's one of my best friends in the entire world, completely straight edge, and I know him well enough that I'd literally bet 1,000 dollars it's the case.

Honestly, I find it mildly insulting that you are suggesting someone I know so well would be lying to me. I mean, i get it, people lie all the time, but no, he is not lying.

Literally, if I thought one of my big toes would get cut off if i was wrong I'd be betting he is telling the truth. Guy has never drank a beer, smoked a joint, etc, and clean athletes DO exist. To say that they don't is an impossibility.

I could be wrong, but the chances percentage wise that I am right are extremely high with how well we know eachother.

I would have to disagree with you on your morals though.

MMA is a sport, it's not war, and using PEDs is against the rules.

We can debate whether or not it should be, but it is against the rules, and it's cheating, so that's just not cool.

However, that is pro MMA, whereas amateur, which i have a slim chance of ever pulling off anyway, does not have those rules because no one gets paid.

You have the same mindset that a large percentage of athletes in sports have these days, the old ''if you're not cheating you're not trying'' outlook, but i do not necessarily agree with it.


If you want to go that far you could take it REALLY far.

I mean, what about the men who have transitioned into women and are now beating up other women in MMA?

Fallon Fox is doing that and I see it as totally wrong.

What about sneaking some brass knuckles under your glove to knock your opponent out?

What about intentionally pulling off an eye poke, which is obviously against the rules, because you think you can get away with it, and then use that to win?

I am pretty sure that unless you are completely amoral that there would be a certain point at which you would consider it unfair to do something in a certain sport.

The rules for PEDs and other things are designed to level the playing field to the point where it's a fighter or athletes NATURAL abilities that allow them to shine, and not artificial tools or substances.

The idea is to TRULY find out who the better athlete/fighter is, not to figure out who can manipulate all the rules and get away with it.

If this is a war we in are in it is different, but we are talking sports.

And as far is it being the person's ''choice'' not to use a substance, maybe it's not really what they want, but they are afraid of the side effects of the drug, or perhaps they have a health condition which makes taking that drug impossible but makes it possible for their opponent.

In such a case, that is morally wrong IMO.

I think there should be a PED league and a non-PED league, but one way or another, sports have rules, and i believe the athletes should abide by them.

You could literally go to insane lengths otherwise like putting roofies in your opponent's water so he's too out of it to consciously defend himself in the ring or grease yourself up so your opponent can't grab onto you or do something outside the ring to interfere with your opponent's cornerman's ability to make it there on time to coach his fighter.

You could pay off the ref to stop the fight so you win, you could send a death threat to the guy's wife so he finds out about it right before the fight and is distracted, or you could try to bite the guy when the ref isn't looking, and if somehow you get away with it and win, i don't see any of that as legit, nor do i think most fighters or athletes could at the end of the day look themselves in the mirror and feel that they truly bested their opponent or proved much of anything about their skill level being superior to their opponents' by sinking to such lows.

The possibilities for cheating could be ENDLESS, and i very much doubt you'd be cool with every possible way a person could cheat in any and all sports.

I also do not think that whether or not the person won is the only thing remembered, and currently in MMA rule breaking antics by lots of top fighters are not being accepted.
I just have to say, some people will hide and protect the fact they use PEDs till the day they die, no matter who is close to them or how much you think you know about them.

The reality is is PEDs are widely used by almost all professional athletes, and I would not be the least bit surprised if star fighters like McGregor or Jon Jones didn’t have super drugs the WADA don’t even know about or how to test for. The reality is is the stakes are too high and it’s foolish to expect to compete without PEDs.

in sports it’s entirely embarrassing and discrediting to be found positive for steroids and especially in MMA, so I know if I was a pro fighter I would go to extreme lengths to deny and advocate against PEDs because the reality is is if you get caught it completely diminishes what you have achieved. I do find it funny however how people have the belief if you stick a needle in your ass you instantly turn into some Greek chiseled god. That couldn’t be further from the truth.

Steroids help, they do. But I’m under the belief that for steroid users to achieve the highest physique they have to put in Tremendous amounts of work regardless of what enhancement is being used.

that said, I wanted to go back to the guy saying his friend died 4 months after dropping testosterone
 

OpiateKiller

Bluelighter
Joined
Feb 14, 2019
Messages
329
Let me clarify. I think people ought not to behave in a way that is harmful to others. Rape is wrong; this is an objective moral truth. The moral status of PED use is more elusive as you could argue, that in some cases there are no victims I.e. non-competition use. But when there is money, pride, and integrity at stake it’s not good enough to allow something(eg EPO, TRT) which obstructs the purity of competition by advantaging those athletes with greater economic resources, rather than those with raw talent and persistence. At least that’s how I feel. I see your side of the argument, but I also saw PED use destroy the credibility of multiple sports, with far-reaching consequences outside of professional competition.
If someone is a better fighter with more experience in the arts like Ju Jitsu, no amount of testosterone is gonna change the outcome of that fight.

Technique / Experience > Strength 100% of the time.

A real versed pro fighter it wouldn’t matter if there opponent was on PEDs, unless there training matched them.
 

Swim15

Bluelighter
Joined
Sep 11, 2016
Messages
1,697
@Mycophile I’m not even going to read all that because it really isn’t worth the time lol. I’m debating my point from a general objective philosophical viewpoint...not making it personal. That should have been apparent.


But dude...if you get offended over what a guy on the internet says..that is you’re fault, not mine lol. Gotta take offense to be offended which is something I’d never do for anyone.

But, you answered my statement either way but saying

“But i mean, logically i think you could realize that i already knew i had no way of 100 percent knowing whether or not my coach has used PEDs”

Boom. You have no way of knowing 100% that he hasn’t used PEDs. Has he? Probably not. I didn’t say he that probably had, nor do I think he has. But can you say with 100% certainty? Nope.

That was my point.

We can debate all day but, yes, I believe in a more libertarian viewpoint that PEDs are a decision where the primary effects do not impact others and therefore using them in any sport is not morally wrong. Again, some laws and rules are okay to break in our society and some are not so you don’t have an objective standard to say otherwise beyond a personal opinion. Until your belief becomes the majority, we will have PEDs I’m tested sports.
 
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