Why do women judge their own looks?

[birdup.snaildown]

I'd much prefer we stopped seeing each other as different because of skin color.

Totally agree.

Regarding feminism though, where I'm standing is essentially being a feminist doesn't mean I can't stand up for men too. Particularly when it's men harmed by other men, as it so often is.

Ultimately I consider myself a feminist in so far as I think there is still inequality and prejudice against women in the world, and while I can see prejudice against men too, overall I don't think it's as severe so I don't expend as much energy on it.

I don't see the point of identifying with a gender-specific form of justice / empathy. I'm sure those aren't the right words, but what are the right words in that sentence?

Obviously Black people in the US have been historically mistreated, but I don't think blackist makes sense either.

[blank]ist - whatever it is / whether the term favours women or African Americans or Muslims - only serves to constrict equality.

I don't... perceive all men negatively. I've had positive... relationships with men. I don't hate men

I know you don't. You are pretty much totally onboard with male rights from my perspective. I have little criticisms in that department. I kind of think like a robot. I might be a bit autistic. I've rarely talked to anyone about that, because I always felt guilty for thinking it. When I was a teenager and I told my mother I was depressed for the first time, she told me I wasn't. My brain is a psychedelic spring that has been compressed to a point beyond infinity. It is an overdue volcano. One day soon it will burst and fragments of my figurative skull will be embedded in the ceiling plaster...

It's very easy to misinterpret my tone as hostile when it isn't. I don't make a lot of effort to avoid this, because I perceive that as social anxiety. I'd rather be weird.

You're all good in my book, Jess.

There are lots of people in my life that I can't reason with. It's more difficult for me, I think to find that groove because I'm somewhat indifferent to normal human conventions.

You are not one of these people.

You're the good kind of democrat and you're the good kind of feminist.

I think it's more significant than you realize.

I think you think it's more significant than it is.

That so many people, even many women seek to distance themselves from feminism just because some feminists take things way too far (as extremists always do) seems very unfortunate to me.

Brands are meaningless. At some point, you have to change language to adapt to the social climate. People don't say spastic anymore. Spastic is a medical term, but it became so tarnished by bad reputation that we chose to delete it from favourable speech. Feminism no longer has value as an identity. The way these letters are arranged signifies nothing. It can be replaced by a term with less baggage. I see no problem with people questioning the nature of feminism. I think it is as natural as people questioning the patriarchy.

 

[Jabberwocky]

[blank]ist - whatever it is / whether the term favours women or African Americans or Muslims - only serves to constrict equality.
.

Maybe not if you agree that society has not reached an ideal homeostatic state. It may well be that the fastest route to maximal equality for all (whatever that is) passes through a few overcorrections as people try and ameliorate the present day inequalities of certain groups that are rooted in history or culture.

The early feminists were thought of as extreme in their time and making unreasonable demands by the circumstances or standards of their society. So too with organised labour (the unionists) as it emerged in the modern period.

However in time what looked like narrow special interest claims at the expense of society proved beneficial to equality in society overall. Those outlandish original claims are now normal expectations of most women and most employees.

It is also common for interest groups to make ambit claims in their negotiatons/confrontation with the wider society. Defund the police would be a good example of that. BLM people who want a safe and just society know the police are central to that vision but it makes sense to make an extreme demand to give yourself ground to trade away in negotiations that ultimately still advance your cause.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@Atelier3

I use the term feminism to describe third-wave feminism. I much prefer first-wave feminism, but even first-wave - today - doesn't make a lot of sense... I think modern feminism is just the death throes of first-wave in the same way that BLM is the death throes of Martin Luther King.

At some point, whether it is two years from now or forty years, we need to move on.

 

[JessFR]

The problem with these labels is they kind of develop organically. So sometimes they end up not entirely making sense for what they're usually considered to describe.

Men's right activist for instance has very negative connotations because of how the groups that identify with it behave.

Black lives matter has repeatedly been brought up as a problematic label, including by myself. But it's what's stuck.

Feminism is similar. It's just a label that's developed organically and stuck to and been used to describe a number of somewhat related political opinions.

To me when I think about feminism I'm referring more to an opposition to a kind of male cultural beliefset (what's often labeled toxic masculinity).

People get upset about that label often saying it's not OK to describe masculinity as toxic, but I think that misses the point. It's not that masculinity is toxic, it's that there's a particular kind of masculinity in male culture that encourages harmful behaviors, not just to women but also to men.

In many ways I consider feminism an imperfect label to describe a fight against that phenomenon. And the harms it causes, frequently to women but also in no small way to men as well.

It also encourages men who otherwise would have been pretty decent normal people to behave in ways they know aren't OK because they feel like they have too.

Like anything involving human interactions it's all messy and complicated and not very amenable to clean categories with sensible names.

People try to change these names and sometimes it sticks and sometimes it doesn't.

 

[Jabberwocky]

That’s a good point @JessFR. “Toxic” in the case of toxic masculinity actually acts as a qualifer to exclude all other kinds of masculinity. It circumscribes just one particular variant.

Though many ‘liberal’ activists are wont to use it to capture any masculinity that has any sense of traditional heteronormativity.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@Atelier3

Tell me another term with this syntax:

[demographic] toxicity

 

[JessFR]

@Atelier3

Tell me another term with this syntax:

[demographic] toxicity

I assume you mean the reverse, toxic [demographic]

The popular culture doesn't seem to have come up with another one that I can think of. But that doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean there aren't things you could use as example neither does it mean toxic masculinity is an inappropriate term.

I see it all the time. Men using a kind of male culture to pressure each other to behave in anti social and harmful ways to women and too each other.

That's what toxic masculinity is. It's called toxic masculinity because it has harmful consequences and the ultimate goal, what is used to encourage these behaviors, is a sense of masculinity.

Like attacking other men for not being masculine enough in their behaviors. Or disrespecting women.

It doesn't mean all masculinity is toxic.

As an example, when group of guys bully you for liking something because in their eyes that's not masculine enough. That's generally toxic masculinity. It's harmful and it's done for the reason of you being seen as more masculine.

I'm not sure there is a female version. I mean women definitely do bully each other. God do we fucking ever. But it's not usually for the reason of not being seen as feminine enough.

You can see it in how women can generally get away with acting masculine to a much greater degree than the reverse.

Toxic masculinity is far from being something exclusively harmful to women.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

But that doesn't mean anything.

Perhaps if you were more invested in men than women, it would.

Not that you should be, of course.

But your perspective isn't everything.

 

[JessFR]

Perhaps if you were more invested in men than women, it would.

Not that you should be, of course.

But your perspective isn't everything.

Well no but ultimately like anyone I can only see what I can see.

Like anyone else I'll only ever have an incomplete view of the world. Limited to my experiences as a single member of the various demographics I'm a part of.

That's a very narrow view. But the all anyone can do is their best.

 

[Jabberwocky]

@Atelier3

Tell me another term with this syntax:

[demographic] toxicity

There certainly are many researchers in my field (sociology/anthropology) who examine all kinds of behaviour in different cultures and sub-cultures that they think are detrimental to the community as a whole. They manage to do so without damning the whole community. For example there have been many papers written about the issue of single-parenthood and absent fathers in Black communities (in the US and Australia). They don’t label it toxic parenthood, toxic blackness, toxic indigeneity but they certainly circumscribe ASPECTS of those community cultures that are problematic in the same way people do with the toxic dimensions of the whole spectrum of masculinities.

And as with toxic masculinity, activists pick up on the problematic aspect of the community and try to extrapolate that to the whole community. BL has had lot’s of people try and denigrate the Black community overall through the single parent issue. I don’t see much difference in intent or undesirable outcomes in popular culture between toxic masculinity and these other areas of research.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

You've already acknowledged the difference.

 

[JessFR]

I wonder what proportion of bluelighters are black vs white and what portion of them are from single parent households.

It's kinda rhetorical on my part. I was just thinking about how I'm white and my father still left us.

And given the demographics represented here I wonder if there's a discrepancy.

My point ultimately in this line of thinking of perhaps these phenomena have far more to do with adversity than any racial cultural behaviors.

 

[morpher001]

It's kinda rhetorical on my part.

That's some heavy duty insight right there.

You may never have an answer to why he left.

Consider an average parent and how their childs wellbeing is so vital to them. Notice that boys and girls have been chasing each other since time immemorial. That both men and women tend to be more sympathetic toward members of the opposite sex than to their own.

Contrast that to the old wounds of your lived experience and enjoy a new perspective of chances worth taking.

In my view, feminism is a poison women inflict on other women. Less competition. Ruthless.

 

[V4838]

Came across this random woman on a FB group I frequent & through a series of random events etc we ended up having a small chat on the basics of a faith system I have & she is interested in, skip a few days ahead were on whatsapp sending filth to each other. We basically hit it off so well it's insane & we both fell for each other really quickly.

All good you may assume? Hell NO folks, she isn't the most slim woman ever but she sure isn't Jabba from Star Wars may I add or fills a blender with ice cream so she can just pour it down her greedy mouth, she has some real fucking issue with her looks though & keeps going on & on & on & fucking on (AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH) about her weight, how I'd not get my dick up to have sex as she "is so gross & fat" her direct quote there btw folks.

I've told her several times now I see people way bigger than she is each day, she doesn't fucking listen to me for some reason & im starting to wonder if she is mentally ill or just fucking stupid. I keep getting comments or Instagram model pics she sends comparing herself to these twig body, no boobs or ass models & I wanna scream "FFS Woman!!!!!!!"

WTF can I do with this person orcis she a lost cause? Is she mentally ill? Is she just stupid & slow? I'm starting to run out of patience with this bullshit of hers tbh folks.

Anyone guide me how to bang logic into her?

Shes likely got Body Dysmorphic Disease BDD. Google It. She cant help compulsively dwelling on body image. Probably started from a stupid negative comment re her appearance long ago. Princess Diana kinda suffered from it too when Charles called her chubby then she became bulimic due to his criticism. She cant help herself. I believe its a form of OCD. Obsessive compulsive disorder. Shower her with compliments she needs positive reinforcement from men. Psychology has no cure for body Dysmorphic disease btw. Just my 2 cents. Peace.

 

[morpher001]

....

Unless you like the drama, sounds like hard work

 

[bleedingheartcommie]

Unfortunately, bc that's where they have been taught there value is.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

Show me 2 equally hot chicks, 1 black the other white, I'd pick the black one every time (true story)

 

[Zopiclone bandit]

Never ended up meeting this nutcase, her BPD drove me insane, you tell someone once & then tell 'em twice I sure don't do it three times!!!!

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Show me 2 equally hot chicks, 1 black the other white, I'd pick the black one every time (true story)

If you swap the races around some people might call you a racist (true story)

 

[December Flower]

If you swap the races around some people might call you a racist (true story)

I think it's already a bit racist. I'd pick the more intelligent one or the one I have some sort of rapport with

But ppl just blow that word out of proportion. Everyone is racist to a certain degree, it just can't be helped in our world. Judging someone for their looks is kind of racist in general, because this is technically what you're relying on if you go by looks. If you said you're attracted only to blonde women, that would also mean that you're only attracted to central/northern Europeans, whiter as white. What we shouldn't be is race-discriminating. I myself am ridiculously attracted to Asian women, I just can't help it. But that's my eyes/dick, I never made a choice, here. I'd still choose the woman with higher intelligence, social or otherwise, or better humour.

e.g: If I stated that most people with an Asian background are lactose intolerant & cannot stomach yeast or hop - is that a racist statement? YES, it is, but it is also fact. Is it a race-discriminating statement? Fuck no, it's just a fact. Saying "I'm not racist", would mean that you have to ignore stuff like this, and everyone would be JUST the same. Well, guess what, they're not. Darker skinned people have Vitamin D deficiency in the winter, and get depressed easier during this time. Also racist, of course it's racist, but still a fact.

Racism isn't necessarily bad is what I'm saying, race-discrimination is on the other hand, very much so. But we shouldn't close our eyes to some of these things just because they are "potentially racist".
Racism is just acknowledging that there are different sub-species in humanity, which is also, scientific fact, some of us have much more Neanderthal genes, some have more African/Homo Habilis(? correct me on this) genes.

We're clear when it comes to animals. Fox, red, fluffy, cool ears. Snow Fox, white, fluffy, cool ears. DIFFERENT SUBSPECIES, it's still vulpes, just a different category. But why are we so weird when it comes to humans, when it's just the way we categorize everything in science? We're not allowed to categorize people? That's just bullshit. Ofc we are, and we will, there's no doubt about it. We all are racist to some degree, even if we try especially hard to NOT be race-discriminating, that's also very racist. For example, I think saying things like "urban" or what did Biden say about Obama "he has good hygiene", to describe Black people is fucking racist. Going out of your way to not be called a racist is also fucking racist in itself, because you're already acknowledging that there are different subspecies you have to treat differently in order to not be an asshole to everyone. Saying things like "White people are so racist", yeah that IS a fact for some or maybe even many, but it's also a racist statement in itself.