Why do women judge their own looks?

[December Flower]

Hah! I am male and I get objectified by bisexual and gay men. It has been happening for decades starting when I was super young, and when I was a teen I knew what it was. I ignore most of it or just basically tell most of them no thanks as it happens in public places and I am not there to find sexual partners, people to date, etc.

A lipstick friend that is hyper-effeminate and a part time drag queen likes wearing slutty visible underclothes like thongs, jockstraps, g-strings, etc. under his preppie clothes and has NO SHAME about being totally and completely passiv/bottom and in his words he once told me, 'I love to take on the feminine role in bed sexually with a man, and in a partnership/marriage as I would be the relationship partner that is domestic, cooks, cleans the home, etc. while the other man works.'

I'm at a miss how this is countering my argument. Is it an addition?
Sorry, not meaning to be mean, just at a loss.
Yes, males are very visual beings. We take most of our arousal from what we can see.
I've heard males call a female "The perfect woman" from just seeing her tits, and something like that didn't just happen once; we're simple like that, I guess :D

Also gay/bisexual men are more often concerned about their looks, as well, at least much more than regular men. Probably too because they know they're being judged by other men, and men are fucking visual.

 

[JessFR]

Because men judge them every day.

That's about it.

You can see it in this very forum. Men talking all the time about their standards for women. It's all over SLR.

And women aren't deaf. We hear it too.

And women are also people, people want to be accepted. So if they're constantly told impossible and competing expectations about what the standards are, a lot of people end up a little obsessed over it. To say the least.

If a woman is constantly bringing up negative things about how she thinks she looks, most likely it's cause that's legitimately what she's worried about and worried that you think it too and she's looking for you to reassure her.

And you should. She needs more confidence to help with her self image and to get that she needs people she trusts to help reassure her. If she asks the same question again it's because she still doesn't believe it and wants to be convinced.

Don't think that refusing to answer or that she's just fishing for complements and knows how pretty she is. Even is a part of her does, another big part does not. And it doesn't matter how she actually looks. It's about her perception.

That's my take.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

I'm at a miss how this is countering my argument. Is it an addition?
Sorry, not meaning to be mean, just at a loss.
Yes, males are very visual beings. We take most of our arousal from what we can see.
I've heard males call a female "The perfect woman" from just seeing her tits, and something like that didn't just happen once; we're simple like that, I guess :D

Also gay/bisexual men are more often concerned about their looks, as well, at least much more than regular men. Probably too because they know they're being judged by other men, and men are fucking visual.

It is an addition. As a bisexual man I have had issues with my own self-image or the way my body looks, getting annoyed if I gained 5kg, etc. I have met other bisexual and gay men who are the same way.

 

[December Flower]

That's about it.

You can see it in this very forum. Men talking all the time about their standards for women. It's all over SLR.

And women aren't deaf. We hear it too.

And women are also people, people want to be accepted. So if they're constantly told impossible and competing expectations about what the standards are, a lot of people end up a little obsessed over it. To say the least.

If a woman is constantly bringing up negative things about how she thinks she looks, most likely it's cause that's legitimately what she's worried about and worried that you think it too and she's looking for you to reassure her.

And you should. She needs more confidence to help with her self image and to get that she needs people she trusts to help reassure her. If she asks the same question again it's because she still doesn't believe it and wants to be convinced.

Don't think that refusing to answer or that she's just fishing for complements and knows how pretty she is. Even is a part of her does, another big part does not. And it doesn't matter how she actually looks. It's about her perception.

That's my take.

Honestly, I'm ashamed that we do objectify women so much, but it's almost impossible to stop. We see a beautiful woman and something in our head just turns.

Seeing a beautiful woman is a bit like taking a drug for us. If the switch switches, we can't stop looking, we can't think about anything else, we just wanna do her for hours.
If we didn't live in modern times, we'd probably whack her over the head and drag her back to our mountaincave. I'm kidding a little, but not much.

It is shameful, but honestly, I've found that being honest works the best. We're just wired that way, but we can at least be honest about it, and not fake that we like someone just because she's hot. It sounds like we're such jerks, but you have no idea about the power that testosterone has over us. You really would have to yank yourself away from such a situation as a guy, and it'd probably be painful.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I realize I'm not the norm, but I don't objectify women or men like that. I don't find "super hot" people attractive, perhaps on principal. I prefer a woman who is imperfect in some way. Strategically shaved, painted model types turn me off. They look fake. I see them as vain, even if they aren't vain, because so many of them are. I don't believe that men are hard-wired in the way that is described here. Or, at least, that's just a small part of it. Most of it is socially constructed. We are taught from a very young age to obsess about Western standards of beauty. Even as a pubescent boy, I didn't put much weight in any of that bullshit... I do like big tits, but they don't have to defy gravity or be attached to a supermodel.

Also, women objectify men a lot. It's more socially acceptable for women to make frank unedited comments about a man's appearance than it is the other way round from my experiences.

 

[JessFR]

It probably is more socially accepted.
But is it more frequent?

Even if "society" whatever we define that is is more hostile to men objectifying women. They still do it a hell of a lot.

That said if you wanna hear a bit of a defense of men from Jess the crazy feminist. I really hate how TV keeps depicting the "stupid husband smart wife" dynamic. It's crazy sexist and it would be obvious how disgustingly sexist it is if it were the other way around. And it's shockingly common in TV shows and ads.

But because it's being done to men it's fine and "can't be sexist".

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Yes, Jess, that is another example of female privilege. I'm sick of men being bumbling idiots in movies and TV shows. They're trying to reverse the damsel in distress thing, so now (instead of men and women being equal) men are the one's who need women to help them. It's been happening for decades in cinema. We're supposed to think it's funny. I don't.

Unrelated: I have excruciating abdominal pain that came out of nowhere today. Don't know if my appendix burst or something. I can hardly walk. It's Sunday and I don't want to go to the hospital. Not sure what to do. I have to work with a new client tomorrow. I hope I'm not dying.

 

[JessFR]

Yes, Jess, that is another example of female privilege. I'm sick of men being bumbling idiots in movies and TV shows. They're trying to reverse the damsel in distress thing, so now (instead of men and women being equal) men are the one's who need women to help them. It's been happening for decades in cinema. We're supposed to think it's funny. I don't.

Unrelated: I have excruciating abdominal pain that came out of nowhere today. Don't know if my appendix burst or something. I can hardly walk. It's Sunday and I don't want to go to the hospital. Not sure what to do. I have to work with a new client tomorrow. I hope I'm not dying.

Ugh, please go to the hospital. It's not worth risking your life over.
I know that's easy for me to say. But excruciating pain means something's wrong. Please seek help.

As for this subject. I dunno if I'd go as far as calling this female privilege. If it is its a pretty mild one. But regardless of if it's a privilege, what it definitely is, is sexist and wrong. Stupid writers doing the same sexist derogatory things just in the opposite direction. It was wrong depicted women like this and it's wrong to do it to men.

Hospital now please

EDIT: wait I just remembered you're in Australia. HOSPITAL NOW PLEASE!

If you go when you get back I'll say you were right about some argument of your choosing. Just please make sure you're OK.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

It's gone away now. I can walk. I think it was my hernia. I need to book in for my surgery to fix this fucking thing. It's getting worse. I'm not going to go to the hospital at this point. It takes like three fucking hours to be seen by anyone at the ER.

 

[JessFR]

It's gone away now. I can walk. I think it was my hernia. I need to book in for my surgery to fix this fucking thing. It's getting worse. I'm not going to go to the hospital at this point. It takes like three fucking hours to be seen by anyone at the ER.

Ok but if it gets much worse please go hospital. Please?

 

[December Flower]

I realize I'm not the norm, but I don't objectify women or men like that. I don't find "super hot" people attractive, perhaps on principal. I prefer a woman who is imperfect in some way. Strategically shaved, painted model types turn me off. They look fake. I see them as vain, even if they aren't vain, because so many of them are. I don't believe that men are hard-wired in the way that is described here. Or, at least, that's just a small part of it. Most of it is socially constructed. We are taught from a very young age to obsess about Western standards of beauty. Even as a pubescent boy, I didn't put much weight in any of that bullshit... I do like big tits, but they don't have to defy gravity or be attached to a supermodel.

Also, women objectify men a lot. It's more socially acceptable for women to make frank unedited comments about a man's appearance than it is the other way round from my experiences.

Most guys I know, something in their head turns from seeing women. You might just have lower testosterone levels, which is actually a big plus in today's society. I've talked to a bunch of guys about this phenomenon, and it's the same with many. You see a beautiful(in your eyes) woman and it kind of turns you into a maniac, because your hormones are going nuts. It's just a chemically induced state that makes achieving sex the highest priority.

I'm really not talking about supermodels or anything. Just about the type of woman you find attractive, try to look at her and not think about sleeping with her, or anything sexually charged whatsoever. That is tough for most guys, and it really shows a lot of control and respect, if a man doesn't give in to said urges, and does not objectify that woman in any way possible. Not one dirty comment, no looking at her cleavage even when she isn't looking, no holding the door open so you can see her butt, none of that male-gazey crap. That's true respectful behaviour, and it's hard as fuck for many males. Definitely doable, I've done it dozens of times out of respect for someone's character or her intellect, but it takes restraint.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

is it more frequent?

I honestly don't know. It depends on who you hang out with. My male friends aren't tradie types. It's definitely more frequent for women to make objectifying comments in my circles... and, honestly, I don't care. I don't have a problem with men objectifying women or vice-versa. It's not something that I like to engage in, but I don't see it as a big problem.

I'm sure the following is going to get a negative reaction, but when has that stopped me in the past?

The fact is: lots of women dress in a way that demands attention. They show as much skin as possible. They objectify themselves with their beauty routines. Then, they get pissed off about unwanted advances. It's kind of like dangling a sausage in front of a dog, then kicking it when it tries to take a bite... I didn't word that perfectly, but I'm sure you know what I mean.

I think this is part of the reason I don't pursue super hot women and I never have. I'm a good looking guy, but I don't know if hitting on model types is going to be construed as unwanted advances. It confuses me as to whether or not women who do everything in their power to look attractive want attention or not. It seems like they do.

Do bikini girls want me to look at them?

Plain looking women tend to like it when they get positive attention from men. I don't compliment model types on their appearance, but I will occasionally make positive comments about non model-types. Although, even then, I wonder if they think I'm hitting on them... It'd be nice if I could just compliment someone without it being complicated.

I wish women whistled at me on the street and told me I was a piece of ass.

 

[December Flower]

I wish women whistled at me on the street and told me I was a piece of ass.

The first 10 times, I'm sure. The next 11.359 times will not be as fun

 

[JessFR]

Yeaaah that probably will get a negative reaction, and I don't think it's undeserved.

No matter how women dress, it's never asking for anything. Regardless of their motive.

How I dress in no way justifies unwanted advances.

 

[JessFR]

The first 10 times, I'm sure. The next 11.359 times will not be as fun

When it's part of an entire social system that tells you your worth is primarily sexual it stops being fun.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

You might just have lower testosterone levels

No. I don't think so. I have an extremely high libido. I'm one of the most sexually charged men I've ever encountered. I'll fuck just about anyone, anytime. I ejaculate at least once a day.

holding the door open so you can see her butt

Never done that. Doesn't require restraint for me.

Not one dirty comment,

Ditto.

no looking at her cleavage even when she isn't looking

This requires restraint. I look without even thinking about it. But, honestly, so do women if men are exposing their abs/pecs/scrotum.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

No matter who women dress, it's never asking for anything. Regardless of their motive.

That's not true. I know numerous women that have told me the opposite.

How I dress in no way justifies unwanted advances.

My point is: how do men know if it's unwanted?
You don't - ever - like any men hitting on you?

 

[JessFR]

That's not true. I know numerous women that have told me the opposite.

just cause other women disagree with me doesn't mean anything. Especially when they're of the not actually here variety :d

My point is: how do men know if it's unwanted?
You don't - ever - like any men hitting on you?

If I meet someone, and we start flirting. And it goes both ways. That's totally fine.

What's not fine is some guy saying shit to me on the street from his car. Or randomly making some sexual comment to me. That's harassment. And what I'm wearing never makes that OK.

I shouldn't have to police my clothing just so I'm left alone.

You should probably just assume that kinda interaction is never wanted.

If you actually are interested, in me and not my body, you gotta get to know me. Talk to me, reciprocate. Etc.

Of course I'm not gonna say I have felt uncomfortable with or rejected any advances of any guy ever. I am gonna say I do not like the kind of advances you seem to be defending. I don't think the vast majority of women like them. And thus they are not OK and what women wear don't make them OK.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

just cause other women disagree with me doesn't mean anything

Yes, it does. You made a comment about all women.

No matter who women dress, it's never asking for anything. Regardless of their motive.

You don't speak for every member of your gender. I know women that like what other women would describe as unwanted attention. Maybe sometimes they're not in the mood, but you can't honestly say that no women like that sort of thing.

What's not fine is some guy saying shit to me on the street from his car. Or randomly making some sexual comment to me. That's harassment. And what I'm wearing never makes that OK.

If you're wearing a g-string on the beach and you don't want any sexualized attention, that is confusing for men. Guys yelling shit out of cars is obviously unwanted attention, but I'm not sure what you mean by "making some sexual comment". Again, I know many women that like it when guys hit on them in this way.

I don't think all sexual comments are harassment. If you say something and you get a clear response that indicates the woman isn't interested - and then you continue anyway - that's harassment. But a singular comment isn't necessarily harassment. It depends on the wording and the way you say it... but it also depends on the woman.

You should probably just assume that kinda interaction is never wanted.

I do, like I said... Because I don't know what is wanted and what is unwanted in terms of advances, I don't make any sexual advances.

If I am to assume they are all unwanted (as I do) then the term "unwanted sexual advances" should just be "sexual advances". If everything in that department is unwanted, the word unwanted is meaningless.

Again, not all women agree with you here. It's impossible for men to tell you apart from the women that disagree with you.

 

[December Flower]

This requires restraint. I look without even thinking about it. But, honestly, so do women if men are exposing their abs/pecs/scrotum.

Exactly. But our abs are not as easily exposed. I mean, ofc, a woman that's wearing cleavage knows what she's doing, but a lot of it is actually about not sweating there. Breasts can really entrap a man's mind, but so can any bodypart, if you have an attraction to it. What I meant is just that restraining yourself in that way is very hard for many men. Hell it's hard enough for me to think straight while writing about breasts.

When it's part of an entire social system that tells you your worth is primarily sexual it stops being fun.

Yeah, we can barely imagine. There's half-naked ladies basically everywhere you look, on posters, TV guides, on TV, moviescreens, advertisement, everywhere. You essentially grow up with the implied thought of the world only seeing you for your bodies. If you look back at our movie-culture say before 2000, the guys are the pistol-slinging heroes, and the women are eyecandy. I don't like the reverse either - it would be better to show that both have their useful thinking patterns, and both have their imperfetions, so working together is what saves the day or whatever, I'm not a TV writer. At least it would be realistic

What society defines as "attractive" females can be absolute assholes to everyone, and men will still swarm around them.
"Unattractive" females can be the nicest person ever, and end up alone.
Unnatractive men don't even have it half as hard. I see a bunch of obesed guys with beautiful women. It's a pretty regular sight. Now how often do you see the reverse?

This is fucking unfair, and we all know it. It's just that many men have a hard time acknowledging it.