Why do so many gay men do open relationships?

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

I'm one of the rare ones that absolutely prefers monogamy.. has never cheated and never will. When I'm in a relationship I have no interest in pursuing others sexually. I've been wondering why so many gay men cannot for the life of them handle monogamy. There's nothing wrong with polyamory, but no other demographic of people has made it standard for relationships to be open (I'd say 80% of gay relationships are open nowadays if not more). Could this be because they are insecure about their sexuality making them hyper promiscuous? Is it because of sexual incompatibility? Straight people have sexual incompatibility too, but there's no concept of top or bottom so they don't have to worry about two people in love both being "tops." I find it incredibly easy to not cheat and I receive all my needs sexually and romantically from one partner. It does upset me that I feel like the only gay male I know that does not struggle with cheating. I've been raised from a loving household who accepts me greatly. For some odd reason, my family and friends seem to like me more because I am gay. I wonder if struggles with one's own sexuality creates a need for promiscuity. I have virtually lived the life of a straight male with the exception that I am attracted to men. Maybe being more "straight-passing" makes me avoid homophobic situations altogether. I've barely ever encountered homophobia. And I'm fortunate for that.

In all honesty, the cheating itself does not bother me so much. I actually expect cheating at this point. But deleting messages, lying, manipulation... that's when I take them to dump town. I cannot respect someone who does not respect me or allow me to trust them Again, I have absolutely no issue with polyamorous couples, and I've seen open relationships remain healthy and successful. I just wish gay men would be upright and admit from the start if they cannot handle monogamy instead of constantly brining innocent men into relationships that are doomed from the start, and hurting people who truly love them and are good for them. Does anyone have any theories as to why monogamy is impossible for most gay men? Should I just accept them for who they are and forgive it? Or should I continue to break up relationships (that are good in every other aspect) because of the manipulation? I feel trapped at times.. and I don't know if I'm right for pursuing monogamy as a gay man anymore these days. I think that even if I were in an open relationship I would not sleep with other men besides my partner. I'm just hardwired that way. But I can't help but that feel I'm pursuing something that is impossible and I will always be alone for doing so. I don't want to force someone I love into a situation that they cannot manage that makes them unhappy either though.. I've been in two loving relationships and both ended with me catching them in a lie from a cheating situation. Both were deeply upset at themselves for doing it and hurt that I left them.. even in tears when I dumped them. I don't know, it makes me feel like the bad guy for leaving. But I don't think that I am. It was never my intention to hurt anyone. And I am looking for something incredibly long term. I would appreciate any comments/advice from any kind of person--straight, gay, lesbian, bisexual, trans, etc lol. I think after my second relationship I finally hit a wall that I'm struggling to pass. I don't know where to go from here. Maybe I just haven't found the right person? I think I can be such an amazing boyfriend but I am not properly being given a fair opportunity and that upsets me the most. I feel robbed because I am noticeably happier in relationships.

Also. I have a really nice pickle.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Maybe some significant proportion of gay men are hyper-sexual. I’m not sure which way the causality may flow but perhaps they have identified as gay because of the (on-balance) greater promiscuity in the gay community and therefore the easier opportunities to play out their hyper sexuality.

Personally all my gay friends are actually in stable and seemingly monogamous relationships - but they are also in an older age bracket and may have changed what they want in a relationship from the more promiscuous youths.

I am sure there are plenty of cheated-on wives of straight men who make a similar complaint to yours about men in relationships in general. ALthough in my personal experience it has been my female partners who strayed from the path of committed monogamy rather than me.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Maybe some significant proportion of gay men are hyper-sexual. I’m not sure which way the causality may flow but perhaps they have identified as gay because of the (on-balance) greater promiscuity in the gay community and therefore the easier opportunities to play out their hyper sexuality.

Personally all my gay friends are actually in stable and seemingly monogamous relationships - but they are also in an older age bracket and may have changed what they want in a relationship from the more promiscuous youths.

I am sure there are plenty of cheated-on wives of straight men who make a similar complaint to yours about men in relationships in general. ALthough in my personal experience it has been my female partners who strayed from the path of committed monogamy rather than me.

I am 27 right now. I definitely do notice hyper-sexuality from guys around my age and especially younger. Did you recognize any signs that they had strayed out of monogamy? Sorry that happened to you I definitely know the feeling. Honestly if we go by the "mistakes happen" philosophy.. it's one thing to sleep once or twice with someone outside your long term relationship but a different story to repeatedly seek out partners while lying to your boyfriend/girlfriend. If monogamy was agreed upon in the beginning it's wrong. You can rationalize it however you want but it's not cool. People need to stop trying to avoid loneliness by using their partner while seeking out whatever they want. A relationship is teamwork and love is about not hurting your partner. If you're someone who can't get his or her needs from one person, please realize that and try for something more open It's the morally right thing to do. Yes, if someone doesn't want an open relationship you risk losing that partner... but that's better than hurting them after leading them on for days on end and having a nasty breakup where no one is forgiven.

With Tinder, Grindr, OKCupid, etcetera everyone thinks they have a million chances. Realistically your chances for love are limited... and you can risk aging out by constantly discarding and half-caring about partners. And behavior from one relationship does transfer to the next. If you've been cheating your entire life and you finally meet someone you truly have a beautiful connection with, you can only hold yourself back from saying "screw this" during a nasty fight and go back to sleeping with others for so long. Not many people realize how demons are carried from one relationship to the next and totally ignore that aspect of dating. In time the cheating will catch up to you. When my ex is in his 50s and is scratching his head wondering why he's all alone I hope he looks back on all the people he did dirty.. because I confirmed that I wasn't the only one he perpetually cheated on and I definitely won't be the last.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Monogamy is part of Judeo-Christian society.

It breeds jealous feelings, bitter resentment, and reproach when one person is naturally more charismatic, suave and sexually attractive to the rest of the community.

I have seen it in the eyes of a committed couple.

People normally give up on a monogamous relationship with me really quick when they have a few encounters, see that I'm cocky and hot etc and then "somewhat realize" they couldn't stay faithful in my body so I shouldn't be able to either. Which, frankly, is insulting but it's probably a true perspective.

I think the people who "settle" for each other are more likely to remain committed. They have more to lose. Hedging your bets and all that.

None of my monogamous relationships ended well (lots of love with each one, but many had worse addiction/disease issues than me, etc...) there is also a hippie "free love" perspective, you just go for the experience, the energy, the connection and don't regret it when it's over you cherish it more because it's thrilling to wonder if it'll ever occur again.

Could be gay men have a better understanding of their behavior, how to not hurt feelings of their partner in a relationship, versus straight people which run behind each other's backs (obviously not all of them...)

Insecure love/attachment style may mean people are doing the all-or-nothing borderline reaction for most gay men. I notice I'm either really INTO a guy or I'm not. Very little in between there. Notes for a healthier sex/love-life, Accept the good with the bad, make a reasonable assessment and ask yourself if it's what you really want. The all-or-nothing borderline bullshit is bad thinking.

If you've been cheating your entire life and you finally meet someone you truly have a beautiful connection with, you can only hold yourself back from saying "screw this" during a nasty fight and go back to sleeping with others for so long. Not many people realize how demons are carried from one relationship to the next and totally ignore that aspect of dating. In time the cheating will catch up to you.

You're assuming that one we have free will (a concept I firmly reject), and also that people are concerned about being caught (sometimes things are so desirable we just give into temptation: think drugs, relapsing, lazy or frivolous behavior, food, shopping, etc) and also that there is a karma to this - most of the time the thought is, "well I know they're doing it" because one person in a relationship normally can't hide their whore ways (two personal and real stories I shall keep to myself for now would highlight on this) ...

the point of an open relationship is to find out that you both really don't desire others and are truly into each other. no expectations, no anxiety over "rule breaking". love will form naturally without rules or stipulations, laws, or inconceivably strict boundaries.

most of us would not enter into relationships if we had only one person to have sex with for the rest of our lives. i can assure you of that.

I definitely won't be the last.

"Men are [dogs/pigs]" if this exists in the straight world, why would gay people be MORE committed/loyal? I imagine a similar average of loyalty/commitment.

In an open relationship you can share sexual experiences, and at the very least share the details so both partners know what they're getting into. On the other hand a codependent relationship breeds resentment, leading to frustration sexually and people will find outlets.

by constantly discarding and half-caring about partners

Sounds like everyone I've been with (eventually discards me and I cannot blame them for it).

A monogamous no-one-cheated-but-it-still-fell-apart story can really suck too, it's not like you get a lot out of that kind of unpleasantness. Open relationships tend to work better, there can be a friendship/connection after the relationship is over if it ever is, etc.

There are open relationships in the straight world too btw. Men marry a woman and either want another woman or to fool around w/ a younger guy. It happens. Sometimes the woman wants to explore a threesome or lesbian sex. Or, they're just 100% straight swingers. It happens.

The question you put forth, as well as it is worded, is like asking me "why do car accidents happen to others and not me". You're just a very careful driver and read your driver's handbook manual before passing the DMV test. A lot of people are drunk-driving themselves in sexual relationships.

If someone really loves you and wants to be with you, they will help work past infidelity (on the cheater's part not the other one's) issues, they'll forgive you, and still love you. If you are ready to fight/go through an emotional war, or scream and pout at someone for cheating it's really all your fault. You have to be confident. You have to know you're in love with someone. Love isn't jealousy. It's pride and acceptance and honesty and forgiveness when things don't work out the way you want them to.

A true 1 on 1 relationship in the gay world likely starts in a more "open relationship" stance, if I have to guess.

Honestly if we go by the "mistakes happen" philosophy.. it's one thing to sleep once or twice with someone outside your long term relationship but a different story to repeatedly seek out partners while lying to your boyfriend/girlfriend.

"Mistakes happen" implies we are doing the mistakes. Do people intentionally commit mistakes? I think not. Things are just happening, man. If I was in control of myself I wouldn't be so emotionally devastated, broken and alone right now. I'd have someone next to me and I would feel better.

Also, there is a syran wrap effect. One partner is more loving or clingy. The other realizes, oh, I must not really be into them because (AN EXAMPLE not necessarily about me...) cuddling after sex, spending the night, showing much affect/emotion, etc never seems to happen...

You can tell if someone likes you by the way they are acting and speaking. Some might just be taking us along for the ride - but I doubt it. People's sexual behavior is a positional configuration based on those around you. If you realize someone can't keep it in their pants, let them be single. If you really love someone you will want them to be happy even if it isn't what YOU want.

if you really REALLY want a monogamous relationship just try for it. The fear of heartbreak indicates to me you don't really want a monogamous relationship. I think the concept of polyamory/open relationships to be a bit... of an odd fit in my life, so I am single and I just focus on myself.

The last time I tried for a relationship, nothing worked out the way I wanted it to. I didn't hold resentments but it did break my heart.

The other thing: envy/jealousy is insidious. You can never know IF they cheated. If you HAD KNOWN you probably wouldn't have GOTTEN cheated on, you'd have caught them in the act before it started and had the moral high road in an argument I never wish to have.

Sex is too fun to argue over. That's like arguing over the last line of dope/coke on a mirror. I try not to take things I love and over-regulate them.

You also had a GOOD POINT when you said "sexual preferences, roles etc" a lot of gay guys are very rigid in their sex (so if you want to explore more than what one person "wants" you basically have to keep perusing); the type of people who admit to me "if I'm in a relationship we're doing it ALL together" is very low. Most people have an idea of what they want.

 

[Soso78]

because most of the gays are deviants

 

[Captain.Heroin]

People need to stop trying to avoid loneliness by using their partner while seeking out whatever they want.

If you're lonely in a relationship and they're seeking it out elsewhere, they weren't in love and likely cannot ever know the difference.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

because most of the gays are deviants

... this. I mean, do you think gay men are the moral high ground in a society?

A lot of us have lived promiscuous, addled and chaotic lives based on fun/pleasure seeking. I can't imagine someone being this upset over not having a monogamous relationship. I get lonely if the ONE I WANT isn't around/needs time. That happens. But why would I profess to love someone, dictate they can't sleep around (if they really want this then they should have it if I truly love them) and essentially say "I'm in love with you, but not really because I am just trying to write my name on you like my lunch container at work; you're mine!" is not generally a sexy feeling. If you love someone you would let them fool around, explore, and be there for most of it.

Like you're a person, they're a person. Imagine you are them, or the other person. Imagine they are you. We're all interested in sex. If you are not willing to sleep around then your drive (not testosterone levels, but just sex drive as a phenomena) may be low due to depression, etc. (if I am depressed enough then orgasm is almost impossible even when rock hard).

Imagine you would be happy in an open relationship. What would it look like? What issues/boundaries would you set? What circumstances could it work for you? Where you ask permission first, or are honest about conquests so that one person doesn't get like 1,000 more partners than the other?

Think of it as a civil right. I might not want people to exercise their civil rights to smoke cigarettes, or whatever, but I still believe in their personal freedom enough even if I don't like it. People should be honest in relationships when beginning them. However, it's almost impossible to know how you will continually feel about someone. A lot can change.

Just keep looking. Try to make friends, enjoy experiences. In my world you don't start dating until you've fucked a few times and it's always really good. Just saying. The "no sex before commitments" is like well how do you know you're getting what you want? And then that leads to infidelity if you tie yourself down to a person who can't sexually provide.

Also because "Hey I know this might upset you, but I slept with ___________ last night," is a lot easier to say than "I'm cheating on you with __________________". Gay men generally don't like to upset each other's feelings it's... uncool. They still manage to do that, though, somehow.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Monogamy is part of Judeo-Christian society.

It breeds jealous feelings, bitter resentment, and reproach when one person is naturally more charismatic, suave and sexually attractive to the rest of the community.

I have seen it in the eyes of a committed couple.

People normally give up on a monogamous relationship with me really quick when they have a few encounters, see that I'm cocky and hot etc and then "somewhat realize" they couldn't stay faithful in my body so I shouldn't be able to either. Which, frankly, is insulting but it's probably a true perspective.

I think the people who "settle" for each other are more likely to remain committed. They have more to lose. Hedging your bets and all that.

None of my monogamous relationships ended well (lots of love with each one, but many had worse addiction/disease issues than me, etc...) there is also a hippie "free love" perspective, you just go for the experience, the energy, the connection and don't regret it when it's over you cherish it more because it's thrilling to wonder if it'll ever occur again.

Could be gay men have a better understanding of their behavior, how to not hurt feelings of their partner in a relationship, versus straight people which run behind each other's backs (obviously not all of them...)

Insecure love/attachment style may mean people are doing the all-or-nothing borderline reaction for most gay men. I notice I'm either really INTO a guy or I'm not. Very little in between there. Notes for a healthier sex/love-life, Accept the good with the bad, make a reasonable assessment and ask yourself if it's what you really want. The all-or-nothing borderline bullshit is bad thinking.


You're assuming that one we have free will (a concept I firmly reject), and also that people are concerned about being caught (sometimes things are so desirable we just give into temptation: think drugs, relapsing, lazy or frivolous behavior, food, shopping, etc) and also that there is a karma to this - most of the time the thought is, "well I know they're doing it" because one person in a relationship normally can't hide their whore ways (two personal and real stories I shall keep to myself for now would highlight on this) ...

the point of an open relationship is to find out that you both really don't desire others and are truly into each other. no expectations, no anxiety over "rule breaking". love will form naturally without rules or stipulations, laws, or inconceivably strict boundaries.

most of us would not enter into relationships if we had only one person to have sex with for the rest of our lives. i can assure you of that.


"Men are [dogs/pigs]" if this exists in the straight world, why would gay people be MORE committed/loyal? I imagine a similar average of loyalty/commitment.

In an open relationship you can share sexual experiences, and at the very least share the details so both partners know what they're getting into. On the other hand a codependent relationship breeds resentment, leading to frustration sexually and people will find outlets.


Sounds like everyone I've been with (eventually discards me and I cannot blame them for it).

A monogamous no-one-cheated-but-it-still-fell-apart story can really suck too, it's not like you get a lot out of that kind of unpleasantness. Open relationships tend to work better, there can be a friendship/connection after the relationship is over if it ever is, etc.

There are open relationships in the straight world too btw. Men marry a woman and either want another woman or to fool around w/ a younger guy. It happens. Sometimes the woman wants to explore a threesome or lesbian sex. Or, they're just 100% straight swingers. It happens.

The question you put forth, as well as it is worded, is like asking me "why do car accidents happen to others and not me". You're just a very careful driver and read your driver's handbook manual before passing the DMV test. A lot of people are drunk-driving themselves in sexual relationships.

If someone really loves you and wants to be with you, they will help work past infidelity (on the cheater's part not the other one's) issues, they'll forgive you, and still love you. If you are ready to fight/go through an emotional war, or scream and pout at someone for cheating it's really all your fault. You have to be confident. You have to know you're in love with someone. Love isn't jealousy. It's pride and acceptance and honesty and forgiveness when things don't work out the way you want them to.

A true 1 on 1 relationship in the gay world likely starts in a more "open relationship" stance, if I have to guess.



"Mistakes happen" implies we are doing the mistakes. Do people intentionally commit mistakes? I think not. Things are just happening, man. If I was in control of myself I wouldn't be so emotionally devastated, broken and alone right now. I'd have someone next to me and I would feel better.

Also, there is a syran wrap effect. One partner is more loving or clingy. The other realizes, oh, I must not really be into them because (AN EXAMPLE not necessarily about me...) cuddling after sex, spending the night, showing much affect/emotion, etc never seems to happen...

You can tell if someone likes you by the way they are acting and speaking. Some might just be taking us along for the ride - but I doubt it. People's sexual behavior is a positional configuration based on those around you. If you realize someone can't keep it in their pants, let them be single. If you really love someone you will want them to be happy even if it isn't what YOU want.

if you really REALLY want a monogamous relationship just try for it. The fear of heartbreak indicates to me you don't really want a monogamous relationship. I think the concept of polyamory/open relationships to be a bit... of an odd fit in my life, so I am single and I just focus on myself.

The last time I tried for a relationship, nothing worked out the way I wanted it to. I didn't hold resentments but it did break my heart.

The other thing: envy/jealousy is insidious. You can never know IF they cheated. If you HAD KNOWN you probably wouldn't have GOTTEN cheated on, you'd have caught them in the act before it started and had the moral high road in an argument I never wish to have.

Sex is too fun to argue over. That's like arguing over the last line of dope/coke on a mirror. I try not to take things I love and over-regulate them.

You also had a GOOD POINT when you said "sexual preferences, roles etc" a lot of gay guys are very rigid in their sex (so if you want to explore more than what one person "wants" you basically have to keep perusing); the type of people who admit to me "if I'm in a relationship we're doing it ALL together" is very low. Most people have an idea of what they want.

I appreciate this post coming from a gay man who knows what the love world is like for male on male relationships first hand. I suppose you're right how monogamy puts people in a box when we're meant to be "deviants" with pleasure seeking thrills that we cannot control... but I can't be with someone who doesn't at least vocalize their own behavior a bit and flat out tells a giant lie from the beginning. Should someone make "mistakes" or do something that causes me heartbreak, maybe I can work through it if we talk things out and get a better understanding of each other. But most gay men do not even try. It's all about making mistakes and hiding it from their partners for the majority of homosexual men. There is a huge lack of communication about men's feelings in general (straight or gay), and with two men there can be a whole different world of hidden feelings that tend to be only revealed during gay breakups. Men feel things quite strongly but are uncomfortable discussing their legitimate emotions on subjects and events. We're hardwired a bit differently than women that way. Women tend to be much more open about their thoughts on how they feel and are less guarded when it comes to sharing those feelings. Anyway...

For example, when my ex (I'll call him Andy) decided we would start dating I specifically asked him if hooking up with other guys would be cheating and he clarified pretty adamantly "yes." However, I know now that he hooked up with multiple guys--deleted messages--liied too many times about the small and big things. The entire time he really did seem like a loving, caring, and accepting non-judgmental guy. I did look at him with rose colored glasses but also he had elements that made him seem like he was finally "one of the good guys." I need someone who loves me enough to allow me to love them. If they do me dirty I want to know why it happened and what contributed to his actions. If I was in a relationship for 10 years and they only slept with another being 3-4 times over the course of that relationship, that would be more than enough for me because even in the gay world that is asking for far too much from someone. I do want monogamy or at least the closest thing possible. But if that is not a realistic possibility, then please talk to me about setting boundaries and maybe then I could consider something open as long as rules are set. I am the jealous type though, and it would still bother me if they're sleeping with other men because I am eliminating that option too from my own life. I think that love is slightly about sacrifice. The other person becomes part of you, and their feelings must be prioritized sometimes even more than your own for the relationship to be strong. It's a team effort--not one person holding it together for both parties. However, these sacrifices are minor in comparison to the greater thing both members of the relationship end up gaining if the relationship is healthy and right. Sometimes people have to move locations to be with someone. They have to leave their family and friends. Situations like that are what I mean by sacrifices. People do these things all the time and usually for even the best relationships little things must be left behind for the greater good.

I'm sorry though your post was a bit complicated. Are you saying that I should forego my idea of wanting something monogamous? Or should I just view the concept of monogamy and open relationships differently? Within your life, were the open relationships overall better than the attempts to prevent a partner from sleeping with other guys? I'm a rare kind of guy because I prefer sex with emotional attachment so much more than promiscuous hooking up with strangers or someone you barely know. Don't get me wrong, I've hooked up of course with several guys but something was always deeply missing. It only pleased me physically and I've always been left wanting what's left to explore about a person. For the past few years I have avoided hookups and seldom hooked up. It's only to obtain the physical fix so I can just continue going about my ongoing life. But life without sex for years is torturous when you're a young male lol. They do find me to be handsome, and I know that I am attractive to them physically. But I want someone who needs me so much more than for just physical thrills. For me sex is about showing affection and love. It's not about resetting your biological horniness clock. I actually think being a physically attractive gay man makes it harder to find love. Many gay men disguise themselves to appear as if they have good intentions just to have sex. And often other gay men who would be right for you are intimidated and auto-assume they'll be rejected. So basically all the hookup-type guys are the only ones that approach for the most part. I could be so wrong right now in saying this, but it seems like average-looking gay men tend to have far more long-lasting relationships without physical beauty getting in the way of seeing who someone truly is. I appreciate my handsomeness lol don't get me wrong, but I feel like people are liking me for something that I was simply born with and not who I am character-wise. I know that sounds vein and physical attractiveness is merely temporary, but I wonder if it's done more harm than good for myself. When I analyze my inner self deeply and ponder about why I have addict tendencies at times, I think it boils down to my love life having scarred me and even attempts to be with other men that didn't not get very far. I'd imagine that I'm not the only gay man scarred from "love" and the promiscuity of our own kind--far from it--but I think we deserve so much better than constant betrayal from our own kind and perpetual homophobia existing in literally every part of Earth.

Although on a good-note, I did meet someone really amazing. The only problem is he lives a bit far so it would have to be a somewhat long-distanced thing. But I've never met someone so supportive and caring whenever I've had a bad day. He's coming to visit soon

 

[Jabberwocky]

When did gay culture change from Mardi-gras party and promiscuity to being based on bourgeois values (like monogamy and marriage) gays used to used to define themselves against? 20-30 years ago gay culture was all about total hedonism and rejection of everything “straight”. Or is that now what queer represents and gays are just basically straight middle class guys who happen to like other straight middle class guys?

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

When did gay culture change from Mardi-gras party and promiscuity to being based on bourgeois values (like monogamy and marriage) gays used to used to define themselves against? 20-30 years ago gay culture was all about total hedonism and rejection of everything “straight”. Or is that now what queer represents and gays are just basically straight middle class guys who happen to like other straight middle class guys?

Gay culture was all about anything but living by labels. Yet homosexuality has categorized every type of gay male possible such as: twink, otter (twink with hair.. ridiculous right?), twunk (twink with muscles) bear, pup, jock, etc. I guess I am a twunk per se, but it's hard to clarify if I have enough chest hair for me to be an otter. For a group of people who hate being fit into a box, we sure know how to fit ourselves into boxes lol.

I think the concept of monogamy was created so long ago out of all the jealousy and rage that is natural for us humans when we catch our loved one sleeping with another. It was an inevitable value to encourage (faithfulness) within most societies. And men do get aggressive with jealousy even though women are just as hurt by promiscuity. I definitely think monogamy was created by jealous men though We are by nature more possessive. Since homosexuality has become normalized, to answer your question I'd say that now we are allowed to live by the same rules as straight men. Believe it or not the term gay used to represent femininity in a way, and it was expected that gay men were to be more feminine than heterosexual men (they actually do have more feminine facial features and higher-pitched voices generally speaking). We have the same amount of testosterone that a straight man has, but I do theoretically think there really is a reason physically why our voices are higher and we look more feminine in facial structure. But now being feminine is frowned upon. Gay men usually want a masculine partner, and frown upon flamboyant gay men which I think is unfair. However, some gay men dislike me for being "straight-passing" and it's as if I did something wrong just by being myself. I was raised in a really masculine environment, so maybe my behavior was adopted by guys around me from an early age. Who knows. You can never really win with these people.

I strongly think that being gay is about being yourself. Whether that's hated or not by straight people or other gay people.. you have a chance to create something unique and cherish it. And yet most gay men try to be perfect and somehow that makes them mostly all the same lol!

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I appreciate this post coming from a gay man who knows what the love world is like for male on male relationships first hand. I suppose you're right how monogamy puts people in a box when we're meant to be "deviants" with pleasure seeking thrills that we cannot control...

Like let me ask you this, why do you think people settle into monogamous relationships? Primarily, in the animal kingdom, to raise young, though monogamous relationships are not present in all species. Homosexual subjects of a species don't have the same drive (I have met people who claim to, I just really, really don't think it's what's in the cards for any of them) and indeed the flip side of the coin is that homosexual relatives will be able to support/help out with day care, funds, etc. to their heterosexual counterparts. Almost as if your family will get poorer if all the gay male members decided to settle down with a family of their own (this has to do with political science; wealth inequality, the American caste system, etc. which I won't argue for or against here).

There is a duality about gay men. Men are providers, hard workers, and often find a strong identity in being dedicated workers, a career or pursuit of some sort. So if you had all the success, gain, money of a single male without the biological drive to have kids in a world where we are literally severely overpopulated, what are you going to do with that money?

Probably have a good fucking time.

I've known enough straight couples who put on a brave face but their relationships were trying at best, horrendous at worst from a variety of perspectives I have had. "All marriages have their issues" to a serial gross hetero male cheater that I've encountered.

THERE ARE good monogamous relationships. It's just not the norm for it to be a lifelong fully successful thing. Think about your life, there are ups and downs. Most relationships don't handle downs very well.

It's not even about "thrill seeking". Sometimes I just need someone to chill, talk about things with, enjoy company. It's not all about sex or "the next best thing" to me. But part of the hanging out, doing cool stuff, is in itself a thrill seeking tendency of mine. Sex may or may not come into the equation and it doesn't bother me if it doesn't. I'd rather hang out with confident guys who have a good time VS people I can have great sex with but are just defeated and forever self-conscious as individuals.

but I can't be with someone who doesn't at least vocalize their own behavior a bit and flat out tells a giant lie from the beginning.

^^^THIS^^^

it's incredibly easy to be honest, and if you can't say the whole thing gauge from giving a few context clues. I would rather be devastated by the truth than have the wool pulled over my eyes. And because frankly when that is done to me I get back 10x worse and it's not even something I'm proud of. Tell me you're sleeping with other people, or want to. I don't care, good for you. Tell me I have food caught in my teeth: why would I want to walk around smiling and not understanding why people won't make eye contact? Just tell me the truth. Men (MOSTLY HETERO in this instance) prefer a harsh truth and will persevere with the truth and take their pride in stride. Gay men are a little different. They are often anti-intellectuals (under-represented in higher education is a nicer way to put it...) and are convinced of things that if you got all gay men I've met together there would be a totally logic-less debate over who is right (when none of them are about most of the crazy shit I've heard).

I have theorized heterosexual people are "live learn and grow together" types whereas homosexuality is more of a "lone wolf/red panda" type lifestyle because it's not "family-oriented" in the biological essential of what constitutes gay relations sex or otherwise. Homosexual men adapt by "learning and growing alone" or being vapid and shallow as a reaction formation to what they cannot have (as if there is no neutral between intelligence and the lack thereof?)...

But most gay men do not even try.

I'm not in a relationship so I tell everyone that I'm fucking who I'm fucking, and it's a rather short list at this point in life and I was tested last year, all negative. It helps to build trust with getting your friends tested, having those conversations and frankly they are a turn on to me. Virgins are a turn off. You fall off the bike how many times before learning how to ride it, right? Well sex is the same way and I don't have time nor patience for inexperienced partners. That helps facilitate the honesty.

Starting the conversation yourself is an important first step because they either will or won't come forward, and most likely will be too embarrassed or ashamed. You need the kind of guy who doesn't mind walking around naked and just owns it.

It's all about making mistakes and hiding it from their partners for the majority of homosexual men. There is a huge lack of communication about men's feelings in general (straight or gay), and with two men there can be a whole different world of hidden feelings that tend to be only revealed during gay breakups. Men feel things quite strongly but are uncomfortable discussing their legitimate emotions on subjects and events. We're hardwired a bit differently than women that way. Women tend to be much more open about their thoughts on how they feel and are less guarded when it comes to sharing those feelings. Anyway...

When I was having issues with a guy last year -> a little into this year I could talk to BL about it, friends, etc. but had a very hard time ever discussing it with him. We are both aware we are not monogamous though so that wasn't really the entire issue. I think he was overestimating how much sex I would elect to have as he finds me very attractive and I think that itself deters him from even trying a monogamous relationship with me, or others.

Body dysmorphia is a very destructive force in people's minds. It's very unfortunate.

For example, when my ex (I'll call him Andy) decided we would start dating I specifically asked him if hooking up with other guys would be cheating and he clarified pretty adamantly "yes." However, I know now that he hooked up with multiple guys--deleted messages--liied too many times about the small and big things. The entire time he really did seem like a loving, caring, and accepting non-judgmental guy. I did look at him with rose colored glasses but also he had elements that made him seem like he was finally "one of the good guys." I need someone who loves me enough to allow me to love them. If they do me dirty I want to know why it happened and what contributed to his actions. If I was in a relationship for 10 years and they only slept with another being 3-4 times over the course of that relationship, that would be more than enough for me because even in the gay world that is asking for far too much from someone. I do want monogamy or at least the closest thing possible. But if that is not a realistic possibility, then please talk to me about setting boundaries and maybe then I could consider something open as long as rules are set. I am the jealous type though, and it would still bother me if they're sleeping with other men because I am eliminating that option too from my own life. I think that love is slightly about sacrifice. The other person becomes part of you, and their feelings must be prioritized sometimes even more than your own for the relationship to be strong. It's a team effort--not one person holding it together for both parties. However, these sacrifices are minor in comparison to the greater thing both members of the relationship end up gaining if the relationship is healthy and right. Sometimes people have to move locations to be with someone. They have to leave their family and friends. Situations like that are what I mean by sacrifices. People do these things all the time and usually for even the best relationships little things must be left behind for the greater good.

THAT IS WHY YOU WANT THE OPEN RELATIONSHIP. Find someone who is JUST into you but will let YOU do your own thing, and if you don't want to sleep around you're just going to spend a lot of time together and a lot of trust will be formed. You can talk about if one or both of you find a stranger attractive, etc. It's not like you're "living in the heterosexual closet"; we know we find people beautiful.

Imagine I'm fat. And I'm in front of you and a crowd of people. I know I'm fat, you know I'm fat, and I don't care I own this shit. You're the one with the issue with it, not me. Get it?

People become that self-conscious and ashamed of their own sexuality. BTW I am not fat but it was the best example I could use.

I'm a big fan of "no sleeping with other people unless I'm there and have an invitation to the party too" sort of thing. JUST SAYING. I've done it a few different ways (that is, open relationships).

I'm sorry though your post was a bit complicated. Are you saying that I should forego my idea of wanting something monogamous?

No definitely not.

However it is exactly the same logic I use to convince myself not to give up looking for meaning in life (absurdism) and descend into the pits of declaring life has no meaning and not even the pursuit thereof could be of value to anyone (nihilism, a philosophy I generally do not subscribe to and find problematic to even write a fictional character's perspective of this).

That doesn't mean that you're ever going to find a monogamous fulfilling relationship (THE ODDS ARE GOOD YOU SEEM LIKE ONE OF THE GOOD ONES ) but that also means, I'm equally potentially unlikely to ever find meaning in life (THE ODDS ARE LOW AS I BELIEVE VERY HEAVILY IN ABSURDISM; apples and oranges, though...) = I have had only, ONLY, better and better sexual relationships over time. If you work on yourself, and trust your friends to help you with advice, you'll be fine. A relationship isn't something you can do all on your own. It's a two way street with a lot of intersections, highway on/off ramps, etc. They say "it takes a community to raise a child" it's more like it takes a community to keep a monogamous couple together.

Or should I just view the concept of monogamy and open relationships differently? Within your life, were the open relationships overall better than the attempts to prevent a partner from sleeping with other guys? I'm a rare kind of guy because I prefer sex with emotional attachment so much more than promiscuous hooking up with strangers or someone you barely know. Don't get me wrong, I've hooked up of course with several guys but something was always deeply missing. It only pleased me physically and I've always been left wanting what's left to explore about a person. For the past few years I have avoided hookups and seldom hooked up. It's only to obtain the physical fix so I can just continue going about my ongoing life. But life without sex for years is torturous when you're a young male lol. They do find me to be handsome, and I know that I am attractive to them physically. But I want someone who needs me so much more than for just physical thrills. For me sex is about showing affection and love. It's not about resetting your biological horniness clock. I actually think being a physically attractive gay man makes it harder to find love.

One yes you are 100% right, being a physically attractive gay man makes it nearly impossible to find love (as I almost paraphrased before reading this part).

Don't be afraid to try new things. Like if I had NEVER been in a monogamous relationship I'd still be INTERESTED in EXPLORING the possibility if the right guy came along. And trust me I have. But there's no reason to not find out what it would be like. Different strokes for different folks.

Sometimes hot guys are cheated on because their partner has an inferiority complex especially if you're the hotter one. And if you have someone even HOTTER than you they often have a big ego, big head and expect a lot out of you. It's very hard to find "the one" and I am beginning to understand "the one" does not exist FOR ME, personally. For you, you might find it in a coffee shop tomorrow morning and it might last the rest of your life. Don't give up hope just because I adapted to society differently (it may be a poor adaptation on my part).

Many gay men disguise themselves to appear as if they have good intentions just to have sex. And often other gay men who would be right for you are intimidated and auto-assume they'll be rejected. So basically all the hookup-type guys are the only ones that approach for the most part. I could be so wrong right now in saying this, but it seems like average-looking gay men tend to have far more long-lasting relationships without physical beauty getting in the way of seeing who someone truly is. I appreciate my handsomeness lol don't get me wrong, but I feel like people are liking me for something that I was simply born with and not who I am character-wise. I know that sounds vein and physical attractiveness is merely temporary, but I wonder if it's done more harm than good for myself. When I analyze my inner self deeply and ponder about why I have addict tendencies at times, I think it boils down to my love life having scarred me and even attempts to be with other men that didn't not get very far. I'd imagine that I'm not the only gay man scarred from "love" and the promiscuity of our own kind--far from it--but I think we deserve so much better than constant betrayal from our own kind and perpetual homophobia existing in literally every part of Earth.

I have been intimidated in approaching or asking men out. Before I got older I decided to work on that and went with the feelings when it felt right to ask someone out on a date last year. DID IT WORK OUT THE WAY I WANTED TO? No, not at all it was a disaster shitshow. But you have to try.

One of my friends is at least 10 years older than me and wanted a monogamous relationship and was thinking about someone (I believe not me). I told him, that he'd have to ask. Flirtation is not necessary but you can make a honest, heart-open invitation to take him out on the town for a night, etc. It doesn't require top-level suave or charisma skills, you just have to be yourself, love yourself and be (not so much "confident" of yourself but COMFORTABLE and ENJOYING your own body).

Life without sex as a young hot gay male must be very awful. I'm glad I never took too long off that ride.

Although on a good-note, I did meet someone really amazing. The only problem is he lives a bit far so it would have to be a somewhat long-distanced thing. But I've never met someone so supportive and caring whenever I've had a bad day. He's coming to visit soon

Long distance can be great for friendships but I would never try a long distance relationship. Just an OPINION not urging you to not consider it

I hope you find love.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

When did gay culture change from Mardi-gras party and promiscuity to being based on bourgeois values (like monogamy and marriage) gays used to used to define themselves against? 20-30 years ago gay culture was all about total hedonism and rejection of everything “straight”. Or is that now what queer represents and gays are just basically straight middle class guys who happen to like other straight middle class guys?

I've never been about gay marriage. It seems totally pointless to me. Kind of like the civil rights act, as if that abolished all forms of institutionalized racism in the 60's. Get real. Society either will or won't accept your lifestyle and I don't need government recognition of what I choose to do with my life.

I could use employment, lower deficit/inflation, better security for the US (that doesn't involve building a pointless super-expensive wall...) but no... let's give people fake acceptance by forcing it on people. I don't want people to have to like me because of a law. Because they either are or aren't with or without laws.

The whole over-indulgence scene has been done by the heterosexuals too... some homosexuals are minimalists i.e. Palahniuk. The "glamor" type lifestyle seems to be reabsorbed by heterosexual culture. I don't like people who have to advertise their homosexuality with everything they do/wear/etc. Like if your sexuality is the crux of you and what defines you that's very limited. And shallow. So I don't know what to think about this post. It's an interesting perspective. But I don't think gay people have to follow a formula. Or it wouldn't be a way you are born but choose.

Believe it or not the term gay used to represent femininity in a way, and it was expected that gay men were to be more feminine than heterosexual men (they actually do have more feminine facial features and higher-pitched voices generally speaking).

H...hard disagree. There are very effeminate or androgynous gay and straight men. People either play with sexual identity, role in bed, or or sexual orientation over the course of their lives (and by "play" I mean it "shifts" on you, or can...) I could go on and on about this. I almost will choose not to because I don't want to reveal a lot of personal shit.

 

[atara]

Monogamy is part of Judeo-Christian society.

Buddhist Sutra - Parabhava Sutta

Buddhist Sutra - Parabhava Sutta

www.buddhasutra.com

"Not to be contented with one's own wife, and to be seen with harlots and the wives of others -- this is a cause of one's downfall."

~Gotama Buddha, speaking in Bengal, approximately 400 years before the estimated birth of Jesus Christ.

Could be gay men have a better understanding of their behavior, how to not hurt feelings of their partner in a relationship, versus straight people which run behind each other's backs (obviously not all of them...)

You're overestimating the prevalence of this a lot.

A lot of us have lived promiscuous, addled and chaotic lives based on fun/pleasure seeking. I can't imagine someone being this upset over not having a monogamous relationship. I get lonely if the ONE I WANT isn't around/needs time. That happens. But why would I profess to love someone, dictate they can't sleep around (if they really want this then they should have it if I truly love them) and essentially say "I'm in love with you, but not really because I am just trying to write my name on you like my lunch container at work; you're mine!" is not generally a sexy feeling. If you love someone you would let them fool around, explore, and be there for most of it.

This is just bullshit. You have no right to tell anyone else how to love.

You're assuming that one we have free will (a concept I firmly reject)

Come on, you can't possibly be playing the "free will is an ill-defined concept so I'm not responsible for my choices" card.

because most of the gays are deviants

Monogamy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Research by Colleen Hoffon of 566 homosexual male couples from the San Francisco Bay Area (2010) found that 45% had monogamous relationships.[24] However, the Human Rights Campaign has stated, based on a Rockway Institute report, that "GLBT young people… want to spend their adult life in a long-term relationship raising children." Specifically, over 80% of the homosexuals surveyed expected to be in a monogamous relationship after age 30."

Could this be because they are insecure about their sexuality making them hyper promiscuous? Is it because of sexual incompatibility?

Honestly the true answer is much simpler.

Look, we're all lazy poorly-tuned random-walking meatbags that smell bad. But here's the thing. It's easy to fuck up and drive drunk. And yet, over the past thirty years, we have dramatically reduced the incidence of drunk driving. Is it because we became better people? No, it's because we decided it was important.

I need no more evidence than this thread to show that it's pretty common for gay men to have a bad attitude about monogamy. It's all violent jealousy or whatever, yes I've heard of Fred Engels too, wow much sophisticate. If you don't take it seriously, you won't do it. It's as true for drunk driving as it is for cheating on your partner. There's a thelastpsychiatrist article that goes into detail about this but I can't find it right now.

Frankly -- this is one of my most cynical beliefs -- a big reason that individuals repeatedly have bad relationships is that they prioritize compatibility over character.

FWIW, I am straight and have been in all of two relationships, one of which has continued from 2012 to the present. So I am pretty much the opposite of your audience and I don't know anything about the culture that you're experiencing -- other than I'm damn sure glad I don't have to play.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

As much as I revere a lot of Buddhist philosophy I do not believe the Buddha was a real person, I don't believe in some of their tenants like don't sell drugs/toxins or animal meat or kill animals for their meat... and that many hundreds of years ago, heterosexual societal structures were necessary to keep the birth rate from falling too low. I don't buy everything a religious or philosophical doctrine says just because a lot of it vibes with me.

Never did I imply I'm not responsible for what I do because of determinism. That is also determined. Get it? Otherwise I could have the FREE WILL to find a MAGICAL WAY to just ELIMINATE my role in the matter. If I do wrong, I fucked up. But I don't believe I had any choice but to fuck up. And I tend to think anyone else in my shoes would "fuck up the same way" and I would too in "their shoes", aside from some bad apples. A lot of your life is determined by social interactions, behavioral cues and instincts that have existed long before you got here. If we ultimately had free will then really why do bad things happen, why are we imperfect and why are you alive? Was it your choice to be born, or your parent's procreation?

Stemming from square one there's a small series of things that force your hand in a lot of ways. I'm sorry I don't believe in free will; I'd be much happier if I did.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

This is just bullshit. You have no right to tell anyone else how to love.

Jealousy and insecurity are the two main ingredients for a failed relationship, straight or gay. Open, honest communication is really the only way about it.

There is a tendency when you put an expectation on something, it may not come through = disappointment. Expect nothing or just being bored, and often you're going to have a great time.

I wasn't telling HIM how to love but "you" as in like, me and others I have seen in life who seem pretty well adjusted in their love lives I am SO SORRY.

If someone WANTS to live an overly jealous, possessive or obsessed life over one person I don't think that's really a good thing. Just ask @mal3volent - obsessive love is not fun and I'm sure he done heard more than seven life times about it from me alone. 8( Poor guy. Such a great friend. He always listened to me. you mal.

Love is what you do for them not what they do for you in itself, it's reciprocal. It's a connection. It's not a mind-game in your head consisting of negative obsessive thoughts about someone else. Just my 2c. Pick your poison, love either way has a downside (loss).

ALSO the "why should I" question refers to ME. And you didn't answer it logically for me to understand what your position was.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Like let me ask you this, why do you think people settle into monogamous relationships? Primarily, in the animal kingdom, to raise young, though monogamous relationships are not present in all species. Homosexual subjects of a species don't have the same drive (I have met people who claim to, I just really, really don't think it's what's in the cards for any of them) and indeed the flip side of the coin is that homosexual relatives will be able to support/help out with day care, funds, etc. to their heterosexual counterparts. Almost as if your family will get poorer if all the gay male members decided to settle down with a family of their own (this has to do with political science; wealth inequality, the American caste system, etc. which I won't argue for or against here).

There is a duality about gay men. Men are providers, hard workers, and often find a strong identity in being dedicated workers, a career or pursuit of some sort. So if you had all the success, gain, money of a single male without the biological drive to have kids in a world where we are literally severely overpopulated, what are you going to do with that money?

Probably have a good fucking time.

I've known enough straight couples who put on a brave face but their relationships were trying at best, horrendous at worst from a variety of perspectives I have had. "All marriages have their issues" to a serial gross hetero male cheater that I've encountered.

THERE ARE good monogamous relationships. It's just not the norm for it to be a lifelong fully successful thing. Think about your life, there are ups and downs. Most relationships don't handle downs very well.

It's not even about "thrill seeking". Sometimes I just need someone to chill, talk about things with, enjoy company. It's not all about sex or "the next best thing" to me. But part of the hanging out, doing cool stuff, is in itself a thrill seeking tendency of mine. Sex may or may not come into the equation and it doesn't bother me if it doesn't. I'd rather hang out with confident guys who have a good time VS people I can have great sex with but are just defeated and forever self-conscious as individuals.


^^^THIS^^^

it's incredibly easy to be honest, and if you can't say the whole thing gauge from giving a few context clues. I would rather be devastated by the truth than have the wool pulled over my eyes. And because frankly when that is done to me I get back 10x worse and it's not even something I'm proud of. Tell me you're sleeping with other people, or want to. I don't care, good for you. Tell me I have food caught in my teeth: why would I want to walk around smiling and not understanding why people won't make eye contact? Just tell me the truth. Men (MOSTLY HETERO in this instance) prefer a harsh truth and will persevere with the truth and take their pride in stride. Gay men are a little different. They are often anti-intellectuals (under-represented in higher education is a nicer way to put it...) and are convinced of things that if you got all gay men I've met together there would be a totally logic-less debate over who is right (when none of them are about most of the crazy shit I've heard).

I have theorized heterosexual people are "live learn and grow together" types whereas homosexuality is more of a "lone wolf/red panda" type lifestyle because it's not "family-oriented" in the biological essential of what constitutes gay relations sex or otherwise. Homosexual men adapt by "learning and growing alone" or being vapid and shallow as a reaction formation to what they cannot have (as if there is no neutral between intelligence and the lack thereof?)...


I'm not in a relationship so I tell everyone that I'm fucking who I'm fucking, and it's a rather short list at this point in life and I was tested last year, all negative. It helps to build trust with getting your friends tested, having those conversations and frankly they are a turn on to me. Virgins are a turn off. You fall off the bike how many times before learning how to ride it, right? Well sex is the same way and I don't have time nor patience for inexperienced partners. That helps facilitate the honesty.

Starting the conversation yourself is an important first step because they either will or won't come forward, and most likely will be too embarrassed or ashamed. You need the kind of guy who doesn't mind walking around naked and just owns it.


When I was having issues with a guy last year -> a little into this year I could talk to BL about it, friends, etc. but had a very hard time ever discussing it with him. We are both aware we are not monogamous though so that wasn't really the entire issue. I think he was overestimating how much sex I would elect to have as he finds me very attractive and I think that itself deters him from even trying a monogamous relationship with me, or others.

Body dysmorphia is a very destructive force in people's minds. It's very unfortunate.


THAT IS WHY YOU WANT THE OPEN RELATIONSHIP. Find someone who is JUST into you but will let YOU do your own thing, and if you don't want to sleep around you're just going to spend a lot of time together and a lot of trust will be formed. You can talk about if one or both of you find a stranger attractive, etc. It's not like you're "living in the heterosexual closet"; we know we find people beautiful.

Imagine I'm fat. And I'm in front of you and a crowd of people. I know I'm fat, you know I'm fat, and I don't care I own this shit. You're the one with the issue with it, not me. Get it?

People become that self-conscious and ashamed of their own sexuality. BTW I am not fat but it was the best example I could use.

I'm a big fan of "no sleeping with other people unless I'm there and have an invitation to the party too" sort of thing. JUST SAYING. I've done it a few different ways (that is, open relationships).


No definitely not.

However it is exactly the same logic I use to convince myself not to give up looking for meaning in life (absurdism) and descend into the pits of declaring life has no meaning and not even the pursuit thereof could be of value to anyone (nihilism, a philosophy I generally do not subscribe to and find problematic to even write a fictional character's perspective of this).

That doesn't mean that you're ever going to find a monogamous fulfilling relationship (THE ODDS ARE GOOD YOU SEEM LIKE ONE OF THE GOOD ONES ) but that also means, I'm equally potentially unlikely to ever find meaning in life (THE ODDS ARE LOW AS I BELIEVE VERY HEAVILY IN ABSURDISM; apples and oranges, though...) = I have had only, ONLY, better and better sexual relationships over time. If you work on yourself, and trust your friends to help you with advice, you'll be fine. A relationship isn't something you can do all on your own. It's a two way street with a lot of intersections, highway on/off ramps, etc. They say "it takes a community to raise a child" it's more like it takes a community to keep a monogamous couple together.


One yes you are 100% right, being a physically attractive gay man makes it nearly impossible to find love (as I almost paraphrased before reading this part).

Don't be afraid to try new things. Like if I had NEVER been in a monogamous relationship I'd still be INTERESTED in EXPLORING the possibility if the right guy came along. And trust me I have. But there's no reason to not find out what it would be like. Different strokes for different folks.

Sometimes hot guys are cheated on because their partner has an inferiority complex especially if you're the hotter one. And if you have someone even HOTTER than you they often have a big ego, big head and expect a lot out of you. It's very hard to find "the one" and I am beginning to understand "the one" does not exist FOR ME, personally. For you, you might find it in a coffee shop tomorrow morning and it might last the rest of your life. Don't give up hope just because I adapted to society differently (it may be a poor adaptation on my part).


I have been intimidated in approaching or asking men out. Before I got older I decided to work on that and went with the feelings when it felt right to ask someone out on a date last year. DID IT WORK OUT THE WAY I WANTED TO? No, not at all it was a disaster shitshow. But you have to try.

One of my friends is at least 10 years older than me and wanted a monogamous relationship and was thinking about someone (I believe not me). I told him, that he'd have to ask. Flirtation is not necessary but you can make a honest, heart-open invitation to take him out on the town for a night, etc. It doesn't require top-level suave or charisma skills, you just have to be yourself, love yourself and be (not so much "confident" of yourself but COMFORTABLE and ENJOYING your own body).

Life without sex as a young hot gay male must be very awful. I'm glad I never took too long off that ride.


Long distance can be great for friendships but I would never try a long distance relationship. Just an OPINION not urging you to not consider it

I hope you find love.

A lot of this post was enlightening. Both my boyfriends were physically attractive in my opinion and I was personally VERY attracted to them physically. Yet the two had body dysmorphia in which they never quite vocalized to me--only briefly once each in a text message might I add--so I didn't realize how insecure they were in that regard. I wish they realized how much I loved the way they looked.

I am not a judgmental person, and one thing that I am very good at as a partner is making my mans feel very wanted and attractive. So maybe that is why I tend to attract men who are for no reason at all physically very self-conscious about their appearance. The one guy that my heart had the biggest boner for was from a three week fling ordeal. He was muscular and I had such the hots for him. But in bed he refused to take off his shirt even though his body was the sexy latino-type weight-lifting physique. It was the best sex I"ve ever had in my life. After the ordeal ended the only thing I could spank the monkey to for 4 months was literally him. Even if I watched porn I would always pretend the guy getting pounded was the latino lover. LOL. I don't think it's a coincidence that all of the guys I've been emotionally involved with had body dysmorphia. Or maybe... do you think perhaps most gay men struggle with body dysmorphia and facial insecurity? I am so confident in the way I look. Not in regards as to if I'm attractive or not, but I just personally love my appearance and am extremely comfortable with my body and face. Maybe this is partially why I can be monogamous. I have absolutely no desire to sleep with men to gain confidence in my physicality. No one can make me insecure about how I look. I think that's rare for men and women in general. I'm not the most handsome gay man on the planet as that's an impossible competition very few can win lol. There's no shortage of physically attractive gay men and it must be hard to constantly compete with them because too many gay men are drop-dead beautiful. I am very attached to the way I look being a rare ethnic mix.

If all else fails captain heroin. We could always date. Although you seem like a guy who prefers bears or beefy surfer boys. Iirc we like different drugs so we won't fuel each other's addictions. I kid I kid. I'm probably too boring for you.

 

[atara]

Jealousy and insecurity are the two main ingredients for a failed relationship, straight or gay. Open, honest communication is really the only way about it.

There are so many different ways for relationships to fail. Infidelity or insecurity are only two. Plenty of people here have reported relationships that fell apart for other reasons. Including you, as I recall.

But that's not the point. You said this:

If you love someone you would let them fool around, explore, and be there for most of it.

which is ridiculous. Love isn't mere benevolence. It's an highly varied category of human behaviors that we (arbitrarily) consider meaningful. It's hard to define because of the huge variety involved but the idea that someone's love isn't valid because they don't want their partner to do some things is nineteenth-century communist nonsense. (And the idea that monogamy is a strictly male tradition is belied by the history of feminist activists overturning polygamy laws in developing countries.)

And now you've changed the subject completely for some reason. I never argued against communication or for insecurity, obviously.

There is a tendency when you put an expectation on something, it may not come through = disappointment. Expect nothing or just being bored, and often you're going to have a great time.

If setting your expectations to zero was an easy way to make life enjoyable, everyone would be doing it by now. The idea has been around for thousands of years. I don't have to explain the downsides because the lack of popularity of this solution among everyone in every situation demonstrates by itself that there are plenty.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

A lot of this post was enlightening. Both my boyfriends were physically attractive in my opinion and I was personally VERY attracted to them physically. Yet the two had body dysmorphia in which they never quite vocalized to me--only briefly once each in a text message might I add--so I didn't realize how insecure they were in that regard. I wish they realized how much I loved the way they looked.

I have realized something deeper you are going to trip out about. THE HOTTER someone is, the more they're using steroids to bulk up and look incredibly hot, the worse their body dysmorphia is. Even 100% attractive gay male porn stars will film movies (nude and sexual performances) and be like "I don't like how my _______ (thighs, hips, whatever) looks.

We are inside looking out and we can never be outside looking in without very intense psychedelic experiences. And it's a trip. The 2D reflections or 2D pixelated composition of what should be a reflection distorts the 3D you the rest of us get to enjoy.

I also realized this when I watched "This is Life with Lisa Ling" the Sexual Healing episode when someone with cerebral palsy (and a virgin) gets naked in front of a mirror and they each say 1 thing they do like about both of their bodies and 1 thing they don't like about their own and it was so sad because they were so... humble and accepting and not that self-hating or dysmorphic. And it dawned on me how everyone has a very terrible body image and I have a much different one since having watched that. I remember crying when I saw it because it revealed so much mental illness in society to me in a matter of 2 or 3 sobering minutes of an hour long program.

He was muscular and I had such the hots for him. But in bed he refused to take off his shirt even though his body was the sexy latino-type weight-lifting physique. It was the best sex I"ve ever had in my life. After the ordeal ended the only thing I could spank the monkey to for 4 months was literally him. Even if I watched porn I would always pretend the guy getting pounded was the latino lover. LOL.

OH MY...GOD. Yeah so someone admitted to me the EXACT SAME THING that I was in their spank bank for MONTHS and not just ONE of the hot guys in it but THE #1 GO TO. 8( and then we had breath-taking sex this morning. Like best ever. It was very humbling LOL.

[quote[I don't think it's a coincidence that all of the guys I've been emotionally involved with had body dysmorphia. Or maybe... do you think perhaps most gay men struggle with body dysmorphia and facial insecurity? I am so confident in the way I look.[/quote]
I walk around like I own this like a pro too man. I don't get why people will be afraid to take their shirt off. Perhaps a feeling of being vulnerable.

The looking mirror self (concern about how others see you) IS HELL according to Sartre. Your opinions/beliefs of yourself are the only ones that ultimately matter and being concerned with what others think you look like is pointless. If I am on the right kind of trip all naked bodies are "beautiful" but maybe not attractive if that makes sense because people are confident/proud of what they've got, you know what I mean?

I think everyone has a form of body dysmorphia like a lot, a lot of people after seeing that episode. It was....very tragic for the sake of human psyches.

Maybe this is partially why I can be monogamous. I have absolutely no desire to sleep with men to gain confidence in my physicality. No one can make me insecure about how I look. I think that's rare for men and women in general.

EXACTLY; men, women, straight and gay have a high percentage of this. You can blame social media, cell phones, and the technological singularity, I believe.

I also think maybe you desire a regular thing with someone you know you'll vibe well with, and it's a nice secure feeling or reassuring like no matter what you have someone who cares for you when you go home. I "miss this" in the sense that I don't but it is a "nicer way to live" with less hardships. If that makes any sense I hope it does.

I'm a very giving lover where I like to do what I like to do but I love seeing them get off on it and they have to seem like they're enjoying it or I just am not into it and that seems to make sex better. Porn has caused people to see naked people different because we live in a religious clothed society so like after you see enough porn you start thinking about your and the other gender/individuals/groups differently. At least this is the "porn during the formative years theory" and I didn't get into porn until I was an adult and I had organic sexual experiences prior to watching the plethora of DSL/high speed streaming porn available today.

Most men have a complex, an agenda or a mindgame they can't understand and it's like an algorithm that controls them. Not all of them though. :D

If all else fails captain heroin. We could always date. Although you seem like a guy who prefers bears or beefy surfer boys. Iirc we like different drugs so we won't fuel each other's addictions. I kid I kid. I'm probably too boring for you.

Hahaha. What drugs do you like? I think the only thing I don't like is nicotine and cocaine. 8( hahhahaha.

I have totally given up on finding love (because when you're ready for it it finds you, sort of hippie new age love bullshit my life has been encapsulated in as of late but it seems more true as I stay on my "path") other than self-love and if you love yourself too we can at least go do something cool some time.

I like to get to know the person the energy/vibes first and make a friend because friendships to me are more important. I've made a lot of great friends on BL over the years, male/female, gay or straight or lesbian. And some are still with us, many aren't unfortunately (like met irl).

 

[Captain.Heroin]

There are so many different ways for relationships to fail. Infidelity or insecurity are only two. Plenty of people here have reported relationships that fell apart for other reasons. Including you, as I recall.

YEAH but to let one's PERSONAL experience define THE HERD is a bias and a fallacy or whatever, I forget. I try not to generalize my experience but observe what works for amazing people I know in the world and relay it to others. I don't have all the answers. I'm not a relationship guru. I'm really not.

which is ridiculous. Love isn't mere benevolence. It's an highly varied category of human behaviors that we (arbitrarily) consider meaningful. It's hard to define because of the huge variety involved but the idea that someone's love isn't valid because they don't want their partner to do some things is nineteenth-century communist nonsense. (And the idea that monogamy is a strictly male tradition is belied by the history of feminist activists overturning polygamy laws in developing countries.)

I don't believe love to have negative qualities and I think we can understand that, even if you think I'm wrong

Love is chaotic and random and absurd and has no inherent meaning. That doesn't mean you can't FIND meaning in love but I don't think love is THE meaning to life, if that makes sense. I am sure it has brought deep meaning to many peoples lives

It's really chauvinist for a man not want his woman to cheat on him. It's a major sign of an inferiority complex. Because if you are that good of a lover she isn't going to and if you're really honest with one another you'll just break it off if feelings/situations change. I think it's "anti-masculine" for gay men to be like this too (I'm saying "I think" not "it is", ok? My personal opinions) like if you're so scared of infidelity, then just don't have sex, it's that simple, am I right? Would you really fuck someone on the regular you don't trust to remain faithful to you? Do you trust yourself? These are important concepts to think about. And I'm not judging you, and this is just as much of a learning process for ME as it is anyone else I promise I am not a guru at love or relationships.

When my friends share with me such fears I am still really understanding (won't list names but I you all and you all know it ) because it's part of the process I think we all go through as human beings, and there's hurdles some of us jump over with ease, and there's the ones that trip us up. I've been tripped up by many things other people wouldn't suffer from. So if my opinions are harsh it's because it's just unfiltered honest perspective/opinions I have, and I'm not trying to CHANGE anyone (I'm a believer of determinism, remember, I don't think anyone or myself are even capable of free will..?) but just offer them perspectives, opinions, beliefs of mine and what not, so that it may or may not allow them to see the world in a different light.

And now you've changed the subject completely for some reason. I never argued against communication or for insecurity, obviously.

My deepest apologies. Something terrible happened to me yesterday and I have been numb and dissociating and depressed at times. I think your post had a lot of value over love being a freedom and I sure do love my freedoms: if it seems like I was attacking your argument, trust me I am not and I very well may be wrong and you might have a better idea I want open/friendly discussions here and if I'm not coming across that way it is not my intention I assure you

If setting your expectations to zero was an easy way to make life enjoyable, everyone would be doing it by now. The idea has been around for thousands of years. I don't have to explain the downsides because the lack of popularity of this solution among everyone in every situation demonstrates by itself that there are plenty.

I mean I have expectations I'll wake up tomorrow, that the whole world isn't going to go apocalyptic because of the corona virus, I have expectations out of experiences I'll embark upon being fun and enjoyable because I'm not setting myself up for failure with requirements for a good time. If I ever try to plan out every finite minute detail everything goes wrong. You aren't in total control over everything even if there is some free will there. Make basic plans, be flexible, and stay patient with the people around you.

Having too high expectations is why a lot of us are lonely MYSELF INCLUDED because I AM ALONE, get it? Takes one to know one? Alright? I'm calling myself out here. Not you or anyone else promise.

But over a monogamous relationship is just... self-defeating in my view.

Your expectations might be LOWER than what could have otherwise potentially happened, and you shoot yourself in the foot for insisting on your "expectations being met" which may be worse than just going with the flow and exploring new experiences as they come to you.

I really do not think love is something we control, it is something that controls us.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

@Captain.Heroin

Ah I see. Well definitely not a fan or heroin or its life-destroying properties Adderall is my absolute favorite one and I will never dabble in crystal meth lol... I also love nicotine (Juul).
Looks like we're a lovephetamine addict match! Do you have a big butt? Thickqcqqkque? (thick in French)

As George Washington said before he invaded the Great Wall of China to score some dank af opium:
If thy backside is phat then the love is true. (B.C. 1412) -- I'm sure you can tell that I'm a big history buff.