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Why Christianity is a false religion

I guess. I mean there's such a thing as regrets and I've never had them for whatever reason so they don't exist for me but that's not to say they don't exist for others. I basically don't believe in things that require an external opinion/explanation
 
The U.S. touts itself as a Christian nation, and so did Hitler's Germany.

Both are are or where liars.
Well at least both were left open to their respective historic Christian demographics, which they inherited, respectively. The nation-states themselves didn't espouse direct fundamentalism by any course as a driving factor in their state operation.

Counter to such conclusions are one stressing as a founding principle separation of church and state, or approval of only the vaguely politicized terminology of "Positive"-Christianity (suitable to the propagandized ideals already in line with the government) and officalizing the line that Judaism, as a religion, was not suitable to make one regarded as being "a jew". This is why Karaite's found themselves once in the rather awkward position of wearing Hebrew prayer shawls of their faith with and while in their ethnically exclusive pedigree S.S. uniforms, because it was seen as solely a racial consideration for being jewish and the S.S. saw itself as progressive in matters of freedom of religion. Himmler's fixation in indigenous cultural spiritual practice likely had much to do with this.
 
Yeah I think that Nazi Germany could be called a "Christian nation" only if one uses an extremely loose definition of the word "Christian". Didn't Rosenberg want to replace the Bible with Mein Kampf or something? There were quite a few anti-Christian figures in the Nazi regime. Hitler's remarks on religion are often contradictory...but generally he resented Christianity and Christian values and viewed religion as just another manifestation of the political/racial struggle.

Other fascist movements like the Nationalists in Spain or the Iron Guard in Romania were more into stressing the whole Christian thing but Nazism was quite radical and far-removed from the staid conservatism of reactionary Christianity. The legacy of Christianity didn't really seem to be stressed too much by Nazis, unless it involved politically-expedient deals being cut between Hitler and the church during the Nazi rise to power. If Hitler had more time I think he probably would've moved against them eventually, once he had consolidated power in Europe. I haven't looked into the Nazi attitude towards religion much but it seems like it could be a very interesting topic
 
Yeah I think that Nazi Germany could be called a "Christian nation" only if one uses an extremely loose definition of the word "Christian". Didn't Rosenberg want to replace the Bible with Mein Kampf or something? There were quite a few anti-Christian figures in the Nazi regime. Hitler's remarks on religion are often contradictory...but generally he resented Christianity and Christian values and viewed religion as just another manifestation of the political/racial struggle.

Other fascist movements like the Nationalists in Spain or the Iron Guard in Romania were more into stressing the whole Christian thing but Nazism was quite radical and far-removed from the staid conservatism of reactionary Christianity. The legacy of Christianity didn't really seem to be stressed too much by Nazis, unless it involved politically-expedient deals being cut between Hitler and the church during the Nazi rise to power. If Hitler had more time I think he probably would've moved against them eventually, once he had consolidated power in Europe. I haven't looked into the Nazi attitude towards religion much but it seems like it could be a very interesting topic

In the context of Nazis and Christianity, it is true that at a macro level the German churches were weak and craven while the Vatican was concerned to maintain it’s neutrality and avoid being annexed by the Fascists. However. It’s worth drilling down to the actions of thousands of Catholics who took what limited action they could in their spheres of influence to resist Nazism and help the Jews. There are many many stories of individual heroism by people motivated or inspired by their Christian faith to do something in the face of Nazi atrocities.

As for what Hitler despised in Christianity, I’ve always suspected he was taking his cue from some of the madder and most excessive bits of Nietzsche in that respect. Nietzsche saw Christianity as a weak religion that sought to lower everyone down to a common level of snivelling mediocrity using ‘weak’ concepts like compassion and mercy that had no place in Nazism.
 
Yeah I think you're right about that. Hitler didn't like some of the "meek shall inherit the earth"-kinda stuff...that kind of stuff went against the social Darwinism that he was obsessed with...I read a book for school at one point called "Hitler's Table-talk" (speeches given by Hitler to his entourage, basically) and there's a lot in there where he expounds upon religion, I didn't read too much of it because I was interested in another topic but, from what I remember, he preferred spiritual belief systems he considered more "butch", like the shinto belief system of Imperial Japan or Islam.

Plus, Jesus was a Jew :D
 
He was maybe too deep into mysticism at some point, stoling the buddhist/hinduhist swastika for his flag i mean you got to be sooo far away from you head, and the people who voted for him too, it's like i take europe in charge, change the flag into this:
bouton-du-pavillon-royal-om-hindou-dn0dba.jpg

, then murder all muslims for starting because it's so trendy, but nobody say shit....
 
I do not understand this sentence.
My source was part of a TikTok compilation on YouTube. The did show receipts, but obviously I have no idea of where I'd even begin to look for it.
I mean, the entire bible was, again, made up by some dudes, so it's not important anyway.
Also, the entire of Leviticus was not even meant to apply to Christians or any modern day people. It was aimed at the Luddites only.
Thanks for this.

Regards
DL
 
I don't really get into the Nazism discussion because I think, although I'm not an expert here that one could theoretically be a Neo/Nazi yet follow the New Testament, because you know how you can take things like the Ten Commandments and reinterpret them with New Testament verses. Besides in reality there are a lot more than ten commandments given to the chosen people

The problem with Christianity is it has everything from pure monotheism (Jehovah's Witnesses, Unitarians) to Orthodox and Eastern churches who teach how to pray to angels. When people bring up the different Jewish sects I don't have anything to say except those sects are like comparing Lutheranism to Anglicanism or Catholicism to Coptic Orthodox; I don't know about Russian/Ukrainian or Greek Orthodox, Eastern Syriac or Armenian churches but maybe I got my point across
 
I guess it's more the religions which adapted to the spots' custom they sprawled
 
He was maybe too deep into mysticism at some point, stoling the buddhist/hinduhist swastika for his flag
My understanding was he observed it under an archway where he attended a class early in his life and the simple geometric counterpoint it psychologically elicited had an impact on him. He kept note of such things as influence had on others was an area of interest to him, especially as an orator interested in continually training for what kept those under the sway of presentation. (Studies on the emotional influence certain visuals impart to people have suggested the swastika presents some simultaneous 'robust, concise, dynamic' characteristics)

The "swastika", although that name for it found its way to English likely due to British colonial proximity to India, is perhaps being what tends to make us think it therefore must be only an exposure brought abroad far to the east: that is only because that eastern rendering of the symbol found it's namesake for English speakers out of just such an example as that, and that factor being compounded with the circumstances being it has had a continual presence up to contemporary usage in the east - something easily explaining away as quickest answer when looking to what its origins were if sought out (esp. for pre-internet inqueries historians had to answer for a Nazi adoption of the "hakenkreuz", a true traditional tie in to the culture being almost scandalous by extention of hindsight, and such possibility obscured)

It was in fact an ancient symbol very prevalent in Europe and the occident, and has it's own indigenous symbolism unique to Germanic cultures (and others all prevading Europe and inasmuch likewise too keeping their own traditions about it)

Germanic tribes had it, and lost it, long before hand-me-down appropriation prescribed pre-set meaning imported from without that proponents seeking turn of the century mysticism found with its appearance - them claiming a false but readily apparent foreign contextual entirety to the why and where it must've arose relative to the German "zeitgeist" (a possibility pretty much only in the age of publishing and the written medium. Despite which the alternative to establish academic credentials attesting the swastika existing in its own right before has to present itself). It is found on nordic runestones in Scandinavia, associated with teutonic paganism, thunder etc. to bonze age, and earlier, instances. Often the swastika is given as the sigil of "Donner" (German form of Thor), lighning or rapid onset, Wotan's spear - Carl Jung would speak of archetypes and note a subconscious allusion to "Blitzkrieg", buzz bombs, V-series rocketry and ballistics in general. All the innovations expedited to the world stage by the regime. The very manner encapsulated and told via their pivotal icon.
 
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Yeah you're probably right. It makes me think of Jung and the essay on the similarities between civilisations scattered around the map with no physical link other than the nature between them
 
Yeah you're probably right. It makes me think of Jung and the essay on the similarities between civilisations scattered around the map with no physical link other than the nature between them
Ironic to find that in the meanwhile, as I have just edited my post - to include reference to Jung in just such a capacity - I find your response does just this before I am even done.
 
Not to rehash the issue, but I actually found the 'official line' of Christianity under the Nazi party has a whole article on WP by the name I recalled it having, and learned a bit:

Wikipedia: "Positive Christianity" article

That said, in 1937, Hans Kerrl, the Nazi Minister for Church Affairs, explained that "Positive Christianity" was not "dependent upon the Apostle's Creed", nor was it dependent on "faith in Christ as the son of God", upon which Christianity relied, rather, it was represented by the Nazi Party: "The Führer is the herald of a new revelation", he said.
After reading the above, I tend to think of some Nazi mystics, taking the Greek (and therefore Indo-European language i.e. 'Aryan') word "Christ" and separating it quite blatantly from the Abrahamic messianic tradition of Jesus as a transliteration of the term 'Messiah' among "gentiles".

I know they took Nordic / Teutonic folklore, esp. via Karl-Maria Wiligut (one whom Himmler made an SS specialist on all things religious, as he deemed him an inspired svengali of sorts - much in the same tone of admiration he had for Der Fuhrer, perhaps he felt it was a prerogative fallen in his lap to seek out any who impressed upon him a zealotry in revisionism for all things German) who took the phrase "Irmin Christianity", ('Irmin' presumably from a old name related to Hermann or Arminius, constituting a German subvariety of the more widely recognized Norse/Scandinavian pagan trinity consisting of Irmin – possible epithet equivalent to Thor, the 'heer'-man or soldier god – Ingwaz – from language root "-ing-", usu. suffix or prefix meaning i.e. 'the begetter', likely parallel to Freyr the fertility deity) and – Istwo (possibly Odin), though these associations aren't universally applied, I think one switched Istwo/Irmin with Thor/Odin etc. when I read some such interpretation elsewhere: of course, the original deities never likely had 1-to-1 comparisons if these were taken from fragmentary source information, we get German deities like "Saxnot" & "Forseti" we don't see in other traditions like those "the vikings" had.

Regardless Wiligut (who went by the name 'Weisthor' - "white-Thor" - while Himmler's advisor) stressed 'Irmin Christianity' as venerating 'Baldur Christ", the pure, incorruptible bodied, son of Wotan. This is probably how some in the more mystical circles of the SS elite interpreted "Positive Christianity", esp. after reading the non-SS office Church Affairs Minister quote such a thing about "faith in Christ as the son of God" not being perquisite to adhering to 'Positive Christianity', but espousing "the Fuhrer heralding new revelation". It was all very pragmatic and functional. What it yielded for them, conduct, was all that was sought it seems as apparent as ever to me.

The mainstream distanced themselves from all the pagan-revival sentiment, but they definitely left open any recourse for redefining the German self-concept. I personally feel it all would have been dispensed with had they had more success.


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As for the best tenets of what has become Christianity's tradition, back to the original subject, I do think many philosophers, monastics with the church, Thomas Aquinas to Gottfried Leibniz etc.: had some very poignant extrapolations in philosophic speculation of what 'spirit' was, and though a lot of those concepts of godhead worked their way around what is seen as "the Christian principle" of faith in Jesus directly, I think some good facets of that personality principle, as in the personification about a spiritual 'Logos' and embodied renunciation in the hopeless appeal to it all beyond the world of temporal gains despite the way the story of the cross ended in our living historical account; has redeeming (no pun meant) religious context as a character reference by which one should live and believe against all odds.

Back a bit to this post's original premise: I dare say that what persecution and fatalism there was inherent in the religious premise of what Christianity means - there also existed, one could say, what was reflected in the stark portrayal of the Holocaust's jewish persecution. That a message of forgiveness can come from such a thing in itself can be condoned as testifying some spiritual veracity (by saying 'spiritual' that doesn't mean "supernatural", mind you not to get them conflated) –if one's spirit is a moral guiding principle of character. It is when it becomes coercive and aims at persecution for not following appearances between which the message gets lost, that the "false" charge and acquisition can be levied - and even then a caveat for what amounts to a constant balance between needing to proselytize where asked and where it isn't solicited or required.

For the risk then becomes coercion of one's own view intrusive to another, and just how intrusive is how open we are to the spirit of the matter versus the letter of the law prescribed by how we define ourselves. Neither all of 'christianity' (nor every individual member of the Nazi party) can justly have extended over them the guilt of even a majority of shortcomings supposed and applied for all contexts and all times.

Treating the individual as worthy of forgiveness for all connotations bestowed upon them through the prejudices we inherit from around us, that is the good spirit of Christianity.

Something that the association with Nazism cannot in good faith reconcile. As that would be nothing more than enumerating facts of what distinguish us, objectifying what we call ourselves so that we align superficially to the criteria, or it can be in concrete relation, by the subject of what it means whereby we choose to identify as something, and the spirit in good conscience striving to be as much, and not solely by the status quo whereby we assure others we maintain only the external trappings by which we pass off among others to appear as those - and so in heart must cease to be categorically those type any longer, even if it is only we have outgrown the maturity of our peer group who continue to so identify.

This objectification of Christianity, as it is for anything, is always the falsification of it's true spirit. Objectification always contains a falsification of thing objectified. Living by absolute definitions without a common understanding of the spirit of those definitions is quite counter to so many other aspects abiding within which they distinguish as the moving principle of an identity, whether Christian / atheist, who hold dearly to an aspect is to maintain rejection of the opposite. The dichotomy by which the objectifying trap commences.

Nazism, on the other hand, was deep rooted in objectification directly (at least as to its legacy, that remainder definition brought through impact) To classify, stigmatize, and alter in it's material (accessible) component, the world around it (expediting what it meant to be a Nazi, many times over in short order). This is the historical legacy of all things, perhaps, and faith has been utilized as the basis to some objective ends, but not the legacy of the individual entities still playing out in the field of life such as the internal motivations ascribed to in the faith.
 
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In these discussions of Christianity, what bothers me is the totalising and essentialist way Christianity is referred to. As if there were but one thing to which that label can be applied to. Invariably, it is those on the negative side of the arguments that most often do this. As if there is something essentially comparable at the heart of Jehova’s Witnesses and Roman Catholics or Mid-Western Pentecostals preaching the Prosperity Gospel and South American Jesuits preaching Liberation Theology. It makes the discussions banal and when added to highly selective quotes from religious texts to portray all Christians as being in league with a ‘genocidal’, ‘misogynist’, or ‘homophobic’ God makes absolutely no intellectual sense whatsoever. It’s not even a discussion.

When it comes to looking at Christianity and the role it plays in the modern world, you can’t really have the discussion unless you have at least a passing knowledge of the duality of the Catholic Church and it’s relationship with political power since the time of Constantine. The spiritual core of the Church was deeply philosophical and most of the greatest intellectuals in Europe for a 1,000 years wrote from within or adjacent to the Church whether they were dealing with political philosophy, morality, religion, or science (which were never entirely separate disciplines as they are now). However, at the same time the Church was a temporal power that retained the right to anoint or consecrate Kings across Europe. Through priests and monks in every country it weirder enormous influence over the common people. For hundreds of years the kings and emperors of Europe needed to make obeisance to the Pope in order to be seen by their people as legitimate rulers. At the same time the Pope’s required the military support of the Kings to protect them in Rome and their own territories. So Emperor and Pope were a kind of check and balance on each other so that neither the religious side of life nor the political/power side of life came to totally dominate Europe. They were in perpetual compromise about the rules for living and governing.

So at the spiritual core of the Church philosophers from St Augustine of Hippo to St Thomas Aquinas and onwards developed a religious philosophy that emphasised individuality in terms of a set of moral responsibilities in acting towards the world and humanity in the sight of God. Meanwhile the political role of the Church came to be providing checks and balances against barons, dukes, kings and emperors who had always sought for themselves absolute political rights in their domains. In the ebb and flow of history parts of the political church has mis-used the spiritual parts on many occasions. But it is because of the spiritual core that so many millions adhere to their belief in Christianity. But there is no doubt that the Church is a conservative institution and what was a radical philosophy in Roman times has gradually become a conservative philosophy because it emphasises responsibilities and stability and gradual progress over individual rights and revolutionary change. This is evident in some of its beliefs and practices relating to homosexuals and women. Not that there has not been incredible change in it’s attitudes about these issues over 2000 years and not that it has not made considerable space in the Church for both homosexuals and women. It is a gross mischaracterisation to label the Church as a whole, ‘misogynistic’ or ‘homophobic’ as a number of its greatest thinkers and leaders have been women. Not allowing a woman to be priest or pope has never stopped women playing a major role in shaping the Church and coordinating its good works. Or starting the Inquisition in the case of Isabella (and on the Inquisition - the Church generally opposed death penalties but it was at the mercy of the secular states where the investigations were carried out. So not so murderous as commonly believed)
 
It's all Christianity right? It seems to me that there's both a progressive/revolutionary and a conservative/reactionary element to it but yeah, like you said, it's all Christianity.

Generally speaking, though, society when the Church was at the height of its power and influence didn't look great IMO. I used to love all the old stories of medieval power struggles back in the day, between the popes (some of whom were pretty unseemly for His representative on earth!) and all the monarchs and temporal leaders in Europe. People always say, "it's enough to piss the pope off!", well they actually did frequently piss the pope off lol, and he them. Plus all the domestic politics of the Italian peninsula, which were totally f'ed up yet so fascinating, kind of like the bureaucratic cloak-and-dagger stuff associated with ancient Rome. They're into that sorta thing on the Italian peninsula lol. Loved learning about all those people like Alberti, Machiavelli and the "bad pope" Alexander VI!

The Protestants had interesting religious movements too but they seemed less ostentatious, more austere.
 
I really should stop coming here when drunk, but surely all religions are false?
 
^ define the term... what is the definition of 'religion'?

when op comes back, what is your definition of 'religion'?

alasdair
 
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