What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[indigoaura]

What do ya'll think of posting this somewhere as a PDF? What could I add to make it more encompassing?

Please read this first, before posting to the thread “What is Wrong with the MDMA Available Today?”

• We are specifically discussing MDMA that has been sent to a lab, tested with GCMS or other lab testing, found to be MDMA, but presents with a different effects profile than typical MDMA. We are not discussing un-tested product that could be anything or contain any adulterant.
• “Loss of magic” does not explain the issue, because the alternate effects profile has been experienced by users new to MDMA, including MDMA virgins and users with a short history of use. Also, many users who have experienced this sub-par MDMA go on to experience traditional MDMA from other batches of product with no loss of quality to the experience.
• “Set and Setting” does not explain the issue because it has been experienced across multiple settings/environments/circumstances. Furthermore, multiple users report experiencing the sub-par effects from one batch, and then trying a different batch and easily rolling with a traditional effects profile.
• Dosage does not explain the issue, because the questionable products have been tested in a wide range of doses from low to high with no improvement in effects.
• Route of administration does not change the issue, as several users report alternate routes of administration with no change in effects.
• No, we do not mean to imply that ALL modern MDMA is of poor quality. Obviously, there is plenty of high-quality MDMA out there. However, there is a large amount of poor-quality product available, and it has been reported across multiple continents and regions.
• Although we have not currently identified the specific nature of this problem, we have discussed a variety of possibilities based on published research articles. Some of the possible explanations are: undetected contaminants, structurally similar compounds that present as MDMA to GCMS, metabolic/liver processing issues, drug polymorphism, and isomer ratios.
• Please review the below chart for a simplified visual of what has been noted by many contributors to this thread over the last several years. These are generalizations based on observations and may not be true in every circumstance.

	Traditional (magic) MDMA	Sub-par (meh) MDMA
Mydriasis (eye dilation)	Yes	No
Enhanced tactile senses	Yes	No
Enhanced auditory senses	Yes	No
Feelings of euphoria	Yes	No
Feelings of empathy	Yes	No
Pro-social behaviors	Yes	No
Energy	Yes	No
Feeling sleepy	No	Yes
Desire to be alone/quiet	No	Yes
Enhanced sex/making out	Yes	No
Feelings of love	Yes	No
Desire to be still	No	Yes
Jaw movement	Yes (tension, grinding)	Yes (shivering, shaking)
Duration	4-6 hours	1-3 hours

 

[user666]

Forms that the dry molecule can take should be irrelevant to the effects of the drug once it is dissolved in the body.

When, I wrote dissolved I DID NOT mean "in the body" but in a liquid (such as water) prior to consumption.
Also, I meant a complete dissolution! ..which renders different solubilities a moot point (unless you are dealing with total insolubility). Incomplete/partial dissolution can be easily noticed as solid particulates of different refractive index remaining in the solution.

I did not imagine that my words could be misinterpreted so badly as to indicate dissolution "in the body".

 

[user666]

What could I add to make it more encompassing

Put more effort into emphasizing that we are dealing with "some form of GCMS" testing, so the people reading it don't get the idea that it is an exhaustive GCMS analysis. You know it is not because the lab you have sent it to did not even give you the chromatogram nor the spectrogram. I noticed that the lack of this distinction sows a lot of confusion because most pros have so much faith in the GCMS analysis (sometimes I get the idea, they treat it as the holy grail of analytic chemistry) that any suggestion from our side that it might have missed something is met with a high degree of skepticism. They should be made acutely aware that "some form of GCMS" does not necessarily mean a "diligently made and exhaustive GCMS".

Also, before your table listing the objective and subjective effects of the Meh MDMA vs. the magic MDMA you should mention at what does you are making this comparison.
For example I found it to be true that at 1mg/kg of body weigh, the Meh MDMA does not dilate the pupils but the magic MDMA does. But the same is not true at 3mg/kg.
A distinction between subjective and objective effects should also be made (e.g. with different colors).

 

[indigoaura]

Thanks for your suggestions @user666, I will adjust!

I think your point about GCMS analysis is a good one. The products have been tested via currently available means of drug testing such as International Energy Control, Drugs Data, and other local testing options available in specific countries. I don't think anyone has been provided with chromatogram/spectrogram information yet.

I would be hard pressed to make a specific dosage generalization in the table due to many of the magic experiences being from pills rather than measured crystal/powder. I also don't want the table to just represent my observations. I saw no eye dilation with 120 mg + 100 mg of MehDMA, but other people have taken higher/lower doses with the same observation. I want the table to represent the many, many reports in this thread and not just a specific individual's reports.

I agree about the subjective/objective aspect. I was trying to think of a good way to incorporate that. I even considered adding a second table of observations from non-inebriated individuals watching people on MDMA, but I did not want to confuse things.

 

[mooka]

What do ya'll think of posting this somewhere as a PDF? What could I add to make it more encompassing?

Please read this first, before posting to the thread “What is Wrong with the MDMA Available Today?”

• We are specifically discussing MDMA that has been sent to a lab, tested with GCMS or other lab testing, found to be MDMA, but presents with a different effects profile than typical MDMA. We are not discussing un-tested product that could be anything or contain any adulterant.
• “Loss of magic” does not explain the issue, because the alternate effects profile has been experienced by users new to MDMA, including MDMA virgins and users with a short history of use. Also, many users who have experienced this sub-par MDMA go on to experience traditional MDMA from other batches of product with no loss of quality to the experience.
• “Set and Setting” does not explain the issue because it has been experienced across multiple settings/environments/circumstances. Furthermore, multiple users report experiencing the sub-par effects from one batch, and then trying a different batch and easily rolling with a traditional effects profile.
• Dosage does not explain the issue, because the questionable products have been tested in a wide range of doses from low to high with no improvement in effects.
• Route of administration does not change the issue, as several users report alternate routes of administration with no change in effects.
• No, we do not mean to imply that ALL modern MDMA is of poor quality. Obviously, there is plenty of high-quality MDMA out there. However, there is a large amount of poor-quality product available, and it has been reported across multiple continents and regions.
• Although we have not currently identified the specific nature of this problem, we have discussed a variety of possibilities based on published research articles. Some of the possible explanations are: undetected contaminants, structurally similar compounds that present as MDMA to GCMS, metabolic/liver processing issues, drug polymorphism, and isomer ratios.
• Please review the below chart for a simplified visual of what has been noted by many contributors to this thread over the last several years. These are generalizations based on observations and may not be true in every circumstance.

	Traditional (magic) MDMA	Sub-par (meh) MDMA
Mydriasis (eye dilation)	Yes	No
Enhanced tactile senses	Yes	No
Enhanced auditory senses	Yes	No
Feelings of euphoria	Yes	No
Feelings of empathy	Yes	No
Pro-social behaviors	Yes	No
Energy	Yes	No
Feeling sleepy	No	Yes
Desire to be alone/quiet	No	Yes
Enhanced sex/making out	Yes	No
Feelings of love	Yes	No
Desire to be still	No	Yes
Jaw movement	Yes (tension, grinding)	Yes (shivering, shaking)
Duration	4-6 hours	1-3 hours

I like the idea..I would add:
Enhanced aesthetic appreciation of music
Profuse sweating (which is a very common physical effect completely overlooked)

 

[indigoaura]

When, I wrote dissolved I DID NOT mean "in the body" but in a liquid (such as water) prior to consumption.
Also, I meant a complete dissolution! ..which renders different solubilities a moot point (unless you are dealing with total insolubility). Incomplete/partial dissolution can be easily noticed as solid particulates of different refractive index remaining in the solution.

I did not imagine that my words could be misinterpreted so badly as to indicate dissolution "in the body".

So, if I wanted to rule this out as an issue with my current product, I could dissolve what I have in water? If it will not dissolve in water, then I know there is an issue?

 

[indigoaura]

I like the idea..I would add:
Enhanced aesthetic appreciation of music
Profuse sweating (which is a very common physical effect completely overlooked)

When you say enhanced aesthetic appreciation of music, is that different from enhanced auditory senses? I was specifically thinking of music appreciation with that category, but was trying to be more clinical with how it was described. I can add it to the category already there, or create an entire new row.

I added profuse sweating, and that reminded me to add "feeling cold in a warm environment" which is a problem for me with the "meh" stuff.

 

[user666]

So, if I wanted to rule this out as an issue with my current product, I could dissolve what I have in water? If it will not dissolve in water, then I know there is an issue?

Yes, a 100mg of crystalline polymorph MDMA salt might dissolve slower but it will dissolve completely in 100ml of water, which is an amount, which falls within any sane solubility range.
Anything that does not dissolve in that amount of water at room temperature is not an MDMA salt... e.g. an excipient.

 

[indigoaura]

Also, help me out here people...

The Meh product definitely fucks you up. How would you describe the quality of the high? It is hard for me to describe it by anything other than but what it is lacking, but there is no doubt that I am NOT sober when I am on it. If you have had the "meh" product, how would you describe the specific nature of that high? I can't find the right words to describe it in an objective manner. For me, it makes me want to be very still on my couch. I don't feel inclined to talk to anyone, and wish people would be quiet. There is a memory lapse component to it in high doses, but that is true for MDMA. I listen to music, but it does not really sound any better and I don't appreciate it more. In terms of mental space, I would say it creates a very vacant mental space. I feel okay, and I am not particularly worried about anything. Honestly, it feels similar to a low dose of xanax to me, maybe .5 mg of xanax. But, with xanax I don't feel agitated or angry, and the meh product can definitely lead to a quick shift towards agitation/anger.

 

[MBaggott]

When, I wrote dissolved I DID NOT mean "in the body" but in a liquid (such as water) prior to consumption.
...
I did not imagine that my words could be misinterpreted so badly as to indicate dissolution "in the body".

Not sure why you thought I was responding to something you wrote. I was pointing out that crystal structure is very unlikely to have any influence on drug effects since dissolution happens before these effects. Accordingly crystal structure seems to me unable to explain differences in the effects of different batches.

 

[CFC]

What do ya'll think of posting this somewhere as a PDF? What could I add to make it more encompassing?

Please read this first, before posting to the thread “What is Wrong with the MDMA Available Today?”

• We are specifically discussing MDMA that has been sent to a lab, tested with GCMS or other lab testing, found to be MDMA, but presents with a different effects profile than typical MDMA. We are not discussing un-tested product that could be anything or contain any adulterant.
• “Loss of magic” does not explain the issue, because the alternate effects profile has been experienced by users new to MDMA, including MDMA virgins and users with a short history of use. Also, many users who have experienced this sub-par MDMA go on to experience traditional MDMA from other batches of product with no loss of quality to the experience.
• “Set and Setting” does not explain the issue because it has been experienced across multiple settings/environments/circumstances. Furthermore, multiple users report experiencing the sub-par effects from one batch, and then trying a different batch and easily rolling with a traditional effects profile.
• Dosage does not explain the issue, because the questionable products have been tested in a wide range of doses from low to high with no improvement in effects.
• Route of administration does not change the issue, as several users report alternate routes of administration with no change in effects.
• No, we do not mean to imply that ALL modern MDMA is of poor quality. Obviously, there is plenty of high-quality MDMA out there. However, there is a large amount of poor-quality product available, and it has been reported across multiple continents and regions.
• Although we have not currently identified the specific nature of this problem, we have discussed a variety of possibilities based on published research articles. Some of the possible explanations are: undetected contaminants, structurally similar compounds that present as MDMA to GCMS, metabolic/liver processing issues, drug polymorphism, and isomer ratios.
• Please review the below chart for a simplified visual of what has been noted by many contributors to this thread over the last several years. These are generalizations based on observations and may not be true in every circumstance.

	Traditional (magic) MDMA	Sub-par (meh) MDMA
Mydriasis (eye dilation)	Yes	No
Enhanced tactile senses	Yes	No
Enhanced auditory senses	Yes	No
Feelings of euphoria	Yes	No
Feelings of empathy	Yes	No
Pro-social behaviors	Yes	No
Energy	Yes	No
Feeling sleepy	No	Yes
Desire to be alone/quiet	No	Yes
Enhanced sex/making out	Yes	No
Feelings of love	Yes	No
Desire to be still	No	Yes
Jaw movement	Yes (tension, grinding)	Yes (shivering, shaking)
Duration	4-6 hours	1-3 hours

Once all finalised and agreed, this could easily be added as a summary sheet (with author credits given) to Le Junk's first post in this thread if y'all think it would be helpful?

 

[indigoaura]

Once all finalised and agreed, this could easily be added as a summary sheet (with author credits given) to Le Junk's first post in this thread if y'all think it would be helpful?

Yes, I think it would be very helpful. We keep getting the same questions and misunderstandings over and over.

 

[CFC]

Yes, I think it would be very helpful. We keep getting the same questions and misunderstandings over and over.

Seems like a good plan then. For now I'll insert a link to your most excellent work-in-progress summary in the first post. I envisage using the Forum Bot to create a new second post containing the summary and/or whatever else might be helpful/useful. This can then be modified and updated at will as required.

Thank you so much for getting the ball rolling on this indigoaura Truth be told we've been toying with creating summaries in all BL megathreads for a long time to make the vast quantities of knowledge within more accessible. But holy cow it would be the megaproject of all megaprojects given size and number of megathreads here.

 

[fasterfb]

Yes, I think it would be very helpful. We keep getting the same questions and misunderstandings over and over.

That must have been a huge amount of work to go through 216 pages of posts! Thanks for doing this @indigoaura. This is really impressive.

The Meh column looks truly dismal. I haven't read this whole thread, but if that is what people are experiencing, it doesn't sound like fun.
The only thing in the meh column that I may experience is the Desire to be alone/quiet part sometimes. I enjoy rolling alone (but I also enjoy it with people). It's probably more of a personality or age thing.

 

[indigoaura]

Thank you @CFC and @fasterfb.

I am also going to add an addendum to the bottom with the most relevant research articles.

@fasterfb I also enjoy rolling alone. The distinction here is that if I take typical MDMA in a setting with other people, I will feel positively towards them and want to engage with them (unless I am just blowing up so hard that I need to take a moment to collect myself). However, if I take "meh" MDMA in a setting with other people, I actively want to get away from them and feel annoyed when they try to engage with me by speaking to me or interacting with me. I am not trying to convey that you cannot enjoy MDMA alone, you absolutely can. I will try to think of a better way to phrase this. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say, "Active desire to disengage from social interaction."

 

[indigoaura]

I am also planning to re-read all 216 pages and create a master list of all of the posters who have commented on having experienced "Meh" MDMA. I would like to get an accurate count along with percentages for the various effects/lack of effects.

 

[fasterfb]

Active desire to disengage from social interaction.

Yes, that might be a better way of explaining it. So for me, no I don't feel annoyed with people or feel the need to disengage, in reaction to the way that I'm feeling on the roll.

 

[psy997]

Gonna get to feedback on this tomorrow morning. So many thanks, indigoaura. If we get it looking good enough I'm game for plastering it everywhere we can.

 

[crOOk]

MDMA has always been on the same level of quality for me, regardless of source. I've never had any from the 80s, but I've taken plenty of XTC and crystalline MDMA in the past 20 years. If it tests for MDMA only, it does the trick. I probably wouldn't be married if it wasn't for MDMA.

I just can't agree with you on this one. In fact, I'm one of those guys who keeps saying "MDMA is MDMA". Doesn't matter if I shoot, eat or plug it. Dosage is always 100% reliable.

 

[CFC]

I am also planning to re-read all 216 pages and create a master list of all of the posters who have commented on having experienced "Meh" MDMA. I would like to get an accurate count along with percentages for the various effects/lack of effects.

You're a star mate! Really looking forward to seeing the kinds of patterns you find as you trawl through the data