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What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

andyturbo

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I second what Scatterday said. This is really really interesting. I've just caught up on the last few pages.

Looking forward to hearing more.
 

vecktor

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First it would make no sense to go from safrole to piperional to MDMA.. literately it would make 0 sense, MDA yes... MDMA no


I stay up to date on the LATEST and greatest MDA/MDMA routes some hidden some more present, but most commercial route to Piperional clandestine and wholesale is now made by a new route typically speaking... without safrole... I imagine to QUALIFY for GMP thru SPS It would have to be . this route was patented in the 2000s so it is very old and well documented. The chemistry is sound knowing it is the 3,4 glycol




The present invention is to provide a process for producing piperonal which comprises continuous three steps of:

(A) an addition reaction step wherein 1,2-methylenedioxybenzene and glyoxylic acid are reacted to form 3,4-methylenedioxymandelic acid in the presence of a strong acid,

(B) an extraction step wherein an organic solvent is then added to a reaction mixture and the mixture is neutralized with a base to extract 3,4-methylenedioxymandelic acid in an organic solvent layer, and separating the organic solvent layer and an aqueous layer, and

(C) an oxidation reaction step wherein the aqueous layer is removed and the organic solvent layer is concentrated, and then, nitric acid is added to a concentrate, and the 3,4-methylenedioxymandelic acid and nitric acid are reacted to form piperonal.

Of course I have another route to piperonal But I will not say it here... People who make it from pepper or safrole are retarded considering 1,2-methylenedioxybenzene can be made from catechol cheap a waste product ...
Or safrole can be oxidised directly to piperonal. Safrole is a cheap item of commerce. I wonder what do lot of the industrial producers do? Industrial as in commercial legitimate chemical manufacturers, not hive bee idiots or clandestine chemists. They can get hold of safrole, its dirt cheap. There are literally hundreds of routes to piperonal which any chemist could work out at least 10 in about 5 minutes, but only some of them are going to be cheap and why bother when you can just buy it.

SPS, if they are using piperonal, can just buy it. Indeed if they wanted to start from MDP2P they could just buy that too. They are not clandestine, if they wanted to start from safrole they could just buy it, they have a sch1 licence and can buy any MDMA precursor they like. So your clandestine methods and teks are totally irrelevant.

I suspect you don't know how cGMP works. The chemistry doesn't have to be novel, whilst the starting materials have to be quality controlled through acceptance criteria, but they can be ordinary items of commerce and it is up to the GMP manufacturer to state at which point the in process material is fully under cGMP. The purpose is to have a repeatable documented process in a suitable facility, where the impurities are identified, and a final release specification is created, the process is followed each time which ensures that the product is consistent within batch and batch to batch. A QP could in theory propose to take commercial products and do one step reaction under cGMP in a cGMP facility and it would then be compliant with CFR21 and the product GMP. cGMP is a strange paperwork generating religion, a lot of GMP manufacturers are not very dilligent or professional, it was historically designed for parenteral drugs but it has spread everywhere.
 

vash445

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Or safrole can be oxidised directly to piperonal. Safrole is a cheap item of commerce. I wonder what do lot of the industrial producers do? Industrial as in commercial legitimate chemical manufacturers, not hive bee idiots or clandestine chemists. They can get hold of safrole, its dirt cheap. There are literally hundreds of routes to piperonal which any chemist could work out at least 10 in about 5 minutes, but only some of them are going to be cheap and why bother when you can just buy it.

SPS, if they are using piperonal, can just buy it. Indeed if they wanted to start from MDP2P they could just buy that too. They are not clandestine, if they wanted to start from safrole they could just buy it, they have a sch1 licence and can buy any MDMA precursor they like. So your clandestine methods and teks are totally irrelevant.

I suspect you don't know how cGMP works. The chemistry doesn't have to be novel, whilst the starting materials have to be quality controlled through acceptance criteria, but they can be ordinary items of commerce and it is up to the GMP manufacturer to state at which point the in process material is fully under cGMP. The purpose is to have a repeatable documented process in a suitable facility, where the impurities are identified, and a final release specification is created, the process is followed each time which ensures that the product is consistent within batch and batch to batch. A QP could in theory propose to take commercial products and do one step reaction under cGMP in a cGMP facility and it would then be compliant with CFR21 and the product GMP. cGMP is a strange paperwork generating religion, a lot of GMP manufacturers are not very dilligent or professional, it was historically designed for parenteral drugs but it has spread everywhere.
I've looked into cGMP before, this includes labs in india for drugs imported into USA and LMAO as you say are not very diligent or professional, I believe the route also has to be high yielding.. It's true they could Buy MDP2P or safrole or any other chem from sigma.. so your right the route is technically irrelevant,
 
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vecktor

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I've looked into cGMP before, this includes labs in india for drugs imported into USA and LMAO as you say are not very diligent or professional, I believe the route also has to be high yielding.. It's true they could Buy MDP2P or safrole or any other chem from sigma.. so your right the route is technically irrelevant,
Looking at MDMA from a GMP point of view, avoiding safrole is probably a good idea because safrole is listed by the FDA as a suspect human carcingen and has pretty tight limits on the amount allowed coming out of the infamous root beer controversy. It has effectively a blanket ban on using safrole in food and drugs.
but the rule could be circumvented by buying MDP-2-P as the SM.
Maybe SPS took MAPS for as much money as they could knowing that MAPS have pretty deep pockets and not much industry knowledge. Or MAPS realised that they could raise a significant amount of funds in a drive to make GMP MDMA. who knows.
 

vash445

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Looking at MDMA from a GMP point of view, avoiding safrole is probably a good idea because safrole is listed by the FDA as a suspect human carcingen and has pretty tight limits on the amount allowed coming out of the infamous root beer controversy. It has effectively a blanket ban on using safrole in food and drugs.
but the rule could be circumvented by buying MDP-2-P as the SM.
Maybe SPS took MAPS for as much money as they could knowing that MAPS have pretty deep pockets and not much industry knowledge. Or MAPS realised that they could raise a significant amount of funds in a drive to make GMP MDMA. who knows.


I was excited to assist with this project in part due to the impact that a shortage of GMP MDMA was having on human trials. The absence of GMP MDMA available for research makes the work more difficult and expensive, and discourages scientists from pursuing interesting questions. By manufacturing affordable GMP MDMA and making it available to researchers, we can spur more research into the therapeutic efficacy and mechanisms of action of MDMA.

The search
In order to find the right manufacturer, we first had to locate companies that had GMP facilities and Schedule 1 licenses, or at least one of those features. The search was a team effort, with several researchers and colleagues contributing the names or contact information for candidate firms or offering advice about what to look for in a candidate firm.

I was able to establish through searching company websites that over half of our first set of candidates lacked one or both of the essential features we needed, while others had at least one GMP facility or a Schedule 1 license. These companies were found around the world, but most had a U.S. or North American office.

A few firms initially expressed interest but later declined to take on the project. After gathering advice from colleagues with experience in drug development, we started asking representatives more specific questions. We asked about the company’s prior experience taking a drug through the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) drug approval process, their experience working with similar molecules, and what processes were in place for documenting the processes and resolving issues. The process was slower than I might have imagined.

When candidate firms were interested in the contract, they sent a proposal to us with information on time scale and pricing for their product. Collecting and comparing these various proposals was a significant organizational challenge which we were able to solve. We met with representatives from candidate companies at several points in the search, varying from a simple telephone conversation to a teleconference with half a dozen people in three different time zones. We even had a few in-person meetings with representatives from two of the strong candidates, including Shasun, a UK-based pharmaceutical manufacturing company with GMP facilities.

Finding a firm
We chose Shasun—now Sterling Pharmaceutical Services LLC (SPS)—because they offered a reasonable price and an organized proposal, had previous experience with the FDA, and already had plans for shipping and storage. The Shasun/SPS representatives we met also seemed interested and very engaged in the project, meeting with me and MAPS Executive Director Rick Doblin in person, and responding quickly to our questions. They even had prior experience with similar molecules, and had taken drugs through the FDA approval process. Unfortunately, they were not able encapsulate or package the MDMA after manufacturing, so we are now in the process of locating one or more firms willing to complete these final steps. I was personally excited, too, since SPS’ final proposal had selected as a precursor a compound used in flavoring and perfumery, and I have a personal interest in fragrance chemistry.

Since we signed the contract with SPS, we have received regular communications from members of their team in the UK. After resolving a small issue obtaining a license from the British Home Office to manufacturer a controlled substance, SPS began taking the first steps in formulating a production route. They send us biweekly reports of each step in the process, including any snags or difficulties they encounter. At one point, we received images of test results from the material. We are fortunate to have the expertise of David Nichols and a Swiss pharmacologist in this process, whom we include in our correspondence with SPS.

Shasun/SPS CEO Kevin Cook generously agreed to speak with The Guardian (UK) for a September 2016 feature article entitled “My Therapist Gave Me a Pill: Can MDMA Help Cure Trauma?” The article reported that about 20 of the company’s 325 UK staff are involved in the MDMA production process. “We can handle products here where there is a high risk of diversion—products that can be used for recreational as well as medical benefit,” Cook told The Guardian. For Shasun, MDMA fits right into their existing work. “We just treat it like any other project,” said Shasun chemist Robert Smith, Ph.D.

We have now moved from route finding and small test batches of MDMA to larger-scale manufacturing. Ultimately, SPS will produce one kilogram of MDMA for MAPS later this year. After production, SPS will perform further tests and analyses, including a long-running stability test. MAPS will need about 500 grams of MDMA for use in our Phase 3 research studies. The remainder of the material will be used in Expanded Access trials, and distributed by MAPS to other researchers around the world.

Lessons learned
Finding a GMP manufacturer, and now searching for a firm to package the drug, has taught me much about the pharmaceutical chemistry industry. I was surprised at how specific a niche a company might occupy. Some companies only produce the active pharmaceutical ingredient (API) without encapsulating or tableting it, while other companies primarily encapsulate or package, and others work on biological materials only.

I also learned that what we had considered to be a large batch of MDMA is actually considered small in the realm of drug manufacturing. Representatives from several firms told us that they could just as easily make a kilogram of MDMA as they could 100g or 500g, so the price would be almost the same. Since that was the case, trying to determine exactly how much MDMA we would need for Phase 3 trials was not necessary. If the price is similar and we can further more research by bringing more GMP MDMA into the world, then why not order a kilogram?

I had expected that manufacturing a chemical that is over 100 years old to be a simple process, like making widgets. I thought that there was a set of directions that all pharmacologists and chemists would know that would produce MDMA. However, from our discussions and exchanges during the search, we learned that building a chemical is more akin to cooking or artwork: finding a cost-effective, high-yield route to making a future medicine is a creative process of discovery, not to be found in a single set of directions.

Need for funding
The manufacture of GMP drugs is not cheap. The total cost of one kilogram of MDMA from SPS is approximately $400,000, not including the cost of encapsulating and packaging our finished product. To give further perspective, the MDMA for a single treatment session costs $75, while the MDMA for three sessions (one course) costs $250. We recently raised about $150,000 for GMP MDMA from our 30th Anniversary and our Global Psychedelic Dinners last spring, but the remaining funds needed to purchase this MDMA are still significant. Before 2016 comes to a close, I hope you will support this crucial step in making MDMA a prescription medicine.

To learn more and help us purchase 1 kg of GMP MDMA, please visit maps.org/gmp.
 

indigoaura

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A couple of things really stand out to me about that MAPS article.

I was personally excited, too, since SPS’ final proposal had selected as a precursor a compound used in flavoring and perfumery, and I have a personal interest in fragrance chemistry.
What are they referencing here?

I had expected that manufacturing a chemical that is over 100 years old to be a simple process, like making widgets. I thought that there was a set of directions that all pharmacologists and chemists would know that would produce MDMA. However, from our discussions and exchanges during the search, we learned that building a chemical is more akin to cooking or artwork: finding a cost-effective, high-yield route to making a future medicine is a creative process of discovery, not to be found in a single set of directions.
Doesn't this basically confirm a lot of what we have been discussing here? It implies that there are nuances and details to the process that go beyond simple step by step directions.

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but one thing I recall reading from waaaaay before MAPS started this research study was that MDMA was old and the license was open. In other words, nobody could really profit from it due to MERCK having patented it so long ago. If MAPS develops a proprietary formula for developing GMP MDMA, can they patent that? Would that provide a path for making it profitable?
 

vash445

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A couple of things really stand out to me about that MAPS article.



What are they referencing here?



Doesn't this basically confirm a lot of what we have been discussing here? It implies that there are nuances and details to the process that go beyond simple step by step directions.

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but one thing I recall reading from waaaaay before MAPS started this research study was that MDMA was old and the license was open. In other words, nobody could really profit from it due to MERCK having patented it so long ago. If MAPS develops a proprietary formula for developing GMP MDMA, can they patent that? Would that provide a path for making it profitable?
I was personally excited, too, since SPS’ final proposal had selected as a precursor a compound used in flavoring and perfumery, and I have a personal interest in fragrance chemistry. (piperonal as discussed earlier)
 

vecktor

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A couple of things really stand out to me about that MAPS article.
What are they referencing here?
piperonal

Doesn't this basically confirm a lot of what we have been discussing here? It implies that there are nuances and details to the process that go beyond simple step by step directions.
No.
GMP is writing down the steps so that each batch is the same allowing lower levels of scrutiny of each batch, in theory at least. MDMA is MDMA.
Also, correct me if I am wrong, but one thing I recall reading from waaaaay before MAPS started this research study was that MDMA was old and the license was open. In other words, nobody could really profit from it due to MERCK having patented it so long ago. If MAPS develops a proprietary formula for developing GMP MDMA, can they patent that? Would that provide a path for making it profitable?
MAPS are not developing a proprietary formula, they might have eventually end up with an approved manufacturing process, and they would be the license holder if it ever got approved. there would be nothing stopping any generic company making their own version it provided they could show equivalence or non inferiority, which is really easy. The main positive outcome would be MDMA would be moved from Sch1 to Sch2 and that would be a great acheivement. They wouldn't have anything to patent.

There is no mechanism unless someone goes down the orphan condition route to get exclusivity for MDMA, the normal route of testing to a modern standard an old drug in exchange for exclusivity is not open here, because MDMA is not a previously approved drug and so would have to meet current testing standards.
 
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indigoaura

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we learned that building a chemical is more akin to cooking or artwork
This does not seem like just writing down steps to me. They say it is the opposite of "a set of directions." I get that GMP is all about setting a standard that can be followed in the future, but it seems l like they are implying there is more to it than simple directions.
 

vecktor

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This does not seem like just writing down steps to me. They say it is the opposite of "a set of directions." I get that GMP is all about setting a standard that can be followed in the future, but it seems l like they are implying there is more to it than simple directions.
MAPS are telling a story and asking for money, so they have to make it a good story.

You might want to believe there is more to it than that, but there really isn't. Pharmaceutical drugs are routinely moved to other production facilities, with totally new people doing the work, and the file is the key to it all, and it is just a list of directions and instructions and control documents. What SPS are did was writing down the set of directions they followed etc etc.

I tried to work out what MAPS were playing at ,
I think that SPS no longer make MDMA for MAPS and Onyx do now. MAPS it seems are trying to argue that their special GMP MDMA should be rescheduled out of schedule 1, so becoming the only MDMA that is available legally for human use, and by definition the only MDMA that has medicinal value. The strategy seems to be fuck everybody else with their normal MDMA, their normal MDMA can stay schedule 1, whilst MAPS hold their special GMP MDMA in a perpetual phase III trial with others being able to get it for money through the expanded access scheme controlled by MAPS.

The therapeutic benefit of the drug is in danger of becoming so completely entangled with the woo and pseudoscience of psychotherapy and select MAPS psychotherapists. These psychotherapists and MAPS will then act as gatekeepers to the therapy.

For those unsure whether MAPS are fit to be gatekeepers of a such a valuable theraputic should look up HALPERNGATE, where Doblin covered up for someone he knew to be a DEA informant involved the LSD missile silo case, an informant that tried to entrap multiple other individuals on behalf of the DEA. Doblin did offer to return donated money if donors thought that financing a DEA informant with their MAPS donations smelled a bit bad. The smell in Basel was really bad and it still lingers. In the spirit of forgiveness and redemption, you are forgiven, but it is not forgotten.
 

Hilopsilo

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Indigo, since you have access to all these different samples, could you try doing multiple trials of each? I know its a waste of reagent, but it would help to eliminate the chance that the test result just varies just due to factors like amount of reagent used, amount of MDMA used, or other randomness. If one smokes, and the other doesn't, thats a whole lot more conclusive if it can be reproduced over and over on the same samples.
 

Hilopsilo

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Some posts made on the thread I started on DNSTARS:

"Shulgin tested most of the 3,4 regiosomers metioned earier. Dont think the 2,3 compounds were of much interest to him as I cant find any included in his work

so from Figure .1 the IUPAC chemical names and links to the PiHKAL entries

N,N-Dimethyl[2-(2H-1,3-benzodioxol-5-yl)ethyl]amine ( N,N-Me-MDPEA)
image
(closest match in PiHKAL)

N-Ethyl[2-(2H-1,3-benzodioxol-5-yl)ethyl]amine (N-Et-MDPEA)
image

https://isomerdesign.com/PiHKAL/read.php?domain=pk&id=115 (closest match in PiHKAL)

The closest match to 1 and 2 above is the non branched MDPEA and according to Shulgin
image

SHULGINS COMMENTS ON EFFECTS OF SUBSTANCE
QUALITATIVE COMMENTS: (with 200 mg) “It was taken twice at different times in a dosage of 200 milligrams each time, without the slightest peripheral or central effects.”
(with 300 mg) “My tinnitus had disappeared. Probably nothing.” 🤣😂🤣😂

A quick test on the n-methly analogue confirmed that it wanst a ‘compound of interest"’

There is a family of compounds, to be discussed elsewhere, that is called the Muni-Metro (see under METHYL-J). The simplest member is this compound, MDPEA, and under its chemically acceptable synonym, homopiperonylamine, it can be called “H”. Following that code, then, the N -methyl homologue of MDPEA is METHYL-H, and it has been looked at, clinically, as an antitussive agent. N -METHYL-MDPEA, or METHYL-H, or N -methyl-3,4-methylenedioxyphenethylamine is effective in this role at dosages of about 30 milligrams, but I have read nothing that would suggest that there were any central effects. I have tried it at this level and have found a little tightness of the facial muscles, but there was nothing at all in the mental area.

N-Methyl[2-(2H-1,3-benzodioxol-5-yl)-1-methylethyl]amine (MDMA) https://isomerdesign.com/PiHKAL/read.php?domain=pk&id=109
image

**SHULGINS COMMENTS ON EFFECTS OF SUBSTANCE**
QUALITATIVE COMMENTS: (with 100 mg) “MDMA intrigued me because everyone I asked, who had used it, answered the question, ‘What’s it like?’ in the same way: ‘I don’t know.’ ‘What happened?’ ‘Nothing.’ And now I understand those answers. I too think nothing happened. But something seemed changed. Before the ‘window’ opened completely, I had some somatic effects, a tingling sensation in the fingers and temples—a pleasant sensation, not distracting. However, just after that there was a slight nausea and dizziness similar to a little too much alcohol. All these details disappeared as I walked outside. My mood was light, happy, but with an underlying conviction that something significant was about to happen. There was a change in perspective both in the near visual field and in the distance. My usually poor vision was sharpened. I saw details in the distance that I could not normally see. After the peak experience had passed, my major state was one of deep relaxation. I felt that I could talk about deep or personal subjects with special clarity, and I experienced some of the feeling one has after the second martini, that one is discoursing brilliantly and with particularly acute analytical powers.”

(with 100 mg) “Beforehand, I was aware of a dull, uncaring tiredness that might have reflected too little sleep, and I took a modest level of MDMA to see if it might serve me as a stimulant. I napped for a half hour or so, and woke up definitely not improved. The feeling of insufficient energy and lack of spark that I‘d felt before had become something quite strong, and might be characterized as a firm feeling of negativity about everything that had to be done and everything I had been looking forward to. So I set about my several tasks with no pleasure or enjoyment and I hummed a little tune to myself during these activities which had words that went: ‘I shouldn’t have done that, oh yes, I shouldn’t have done that, oh no, I shouldn’t have done that; it was a mistake.’ Then I would start over again from the beginning. I was stuck in a gray space for quite a while, and there was nothing to do but keep doing what I had to do. After about 6 hours, I could see the whole mental state disintegrating and my pleasant feelings were coming back. But so was my plain, ornery tiredness. MDMA does not work like Dexedrine.”

(with 120 mg) “I feel absolutely clean inside, and there is nothing but pure euphoria. I have never felt so great, or believed this to be possible. The cleanliness, clarity, and marvelous feeling of solid inner strength continued throughout the rest of the day, and evening, and through the next day. I am overcome by the profundity of the experience, and how much more powerful it was than previous experiences, for no apparent reason, other than a continually improving state of being. All the next day I felt like ‘a citizen of the universe’ rather than a citizen of the planet, completely disconnecting time and flowing easily from one activity to the next.”

(with 120 mg) “As the material came on I felt that I was being enveloped, and my attention had to be directed to it. I became quite fearful, and my face felt cold and ashen. I felt that I wanted to go back, but I knew there was no turning back. Then the fear started to leave me, and I could try taking little baby steps, like taking first steps after being reborn. The woodpile is so beautiful, about all the joy and beauty that I can stand. I am afraid to turn around and face the mountains, for fear they will overpower me. But I did look, and I am astounded. Everyone must get to experience a profound state like this. I feel totally peaceful. I have lived all my life to get here, and I feel I have come home. I am complete.”

(with 100 mg of the “ R ” isomer) “There were the slightest of effects noted at about an hour (a couple of paresthetic twinges) and then nothing at all.”

(with 160 mg of the “ R ” isomer) “A disturbance of baseline at about forty minutes and this lasts for about another hour. Everything is clear by the third hour.”

(with 200 mg of the “ R ” isomer) “A progression from an alert at thirty minutes to a soft and light intoxication that did not persist. This was a modest +, and I was at baseline in another hour.”

(with 60 mg of the “ S ” isomer) “The effects began developing in a smooth, friendly way at about a half-hour. My handwriting is OK but I am writing faster than usual. At the one hour point, I am quite certain that I could not drive, time is slowing down a bit, but I am mentally very active. My pupils are considerably dilated. The dropping is evident at two hours, and complete by the third hour. All afternoon I am peaceful and relaxed, but clear and alert, with no trace of physical residue at all. A very successful ++.”

(with 100 mg of the “ S ” isomer) “I feel the onset is slower than with the racemate. Physically, I am excited, and my pulse and blood pressure are quite elevated. This does not have the ‘fire’ of the racemate, nor the rush of the development in getting to the plateau.”

(with 120 mg of the “ S ” isomer) “A rapid development, and both writing and typing are impossible before the end of the first hour. Lying down with eyes closed eliminates all effects; the visual process is needed for any awareness of the drug’s effects. Some teeth clenching, but no nystagmus. Excellent sleep in the evening.”

2-(2H-1,3-Benzodioxol-5-yl)-1,1-dimethylethylamine (MDPH) https://isomerdesign.com/PiHKAL/read.php?domain=pk&id=116
image
SHULGINS COMMENTS ON EFFECTS OF SUBSTANCE
QUALITATIVE COMMENTS: (with 120 mg) “The alert was felt in forty minutes and I was pretty much there at an hour and twenty. Quite like MDA, simple, with no lines, no colors, no motion, no fantasy. I am pleasantly stoned. The anorexia is real, as is the impotency. The drop from the 4th to the 6th hour was softened by a modest amount of wine, and this proved to be extremely intoxicating. My speech was slurred, and there was later amnesia for the rather aggressive and uninhibited behavior that occurred. I felt that there was more drug than alcohol contributing to this episode. My dream patterns were disturbingly unreal.”

(with 160 mg) “A very quiet development. There was no body load whatsoever. And no visual, and I saw it fading away all too soon. This might be a good promoter, like MDPR. I felt refreshed and relaxed on the following morning.”

(with 200 mg) “This has an inordinately foul taste. I felt slightly queasy. There were short daydreams which were quickly forgotten. I see no values that are worth the hints of physical problems, a little eye mismanagement and some clenching of teeth, and a tendency to sweat. I was able to sleep at only five hours into it, but there were a couple of darts. This is not as rewarding (stoning) as MDA, and has none of the magic of MDMA. It was a short-lived plus two.”

1-[(2H-1,3-Benzodioxol-5-yl)methyl]propylamine (BDB) https://isomerdesign.com/PiHKAL/read.php?domain=pk&id=94
image

SHULGINS COMMENTS ON EFFECTS OF SUBSTANCE
QUALITATIVE COMMENTS: (with 175 mg) “The first stirrings were evident in a half hour, pleasant feelings, and without any untoward body effects. Within another half hour I was at a plus 2 and there it leveled off. I would be reluctant to drive a car, but I could were it necessary. There were no visual distortions, no giddiness, no introspective urges, and no rise to a psychedelic intoxication of any significance. After about an hour and a half at this level, I gradually dropped back over another two hours. Afterwards I was quite fatigued and languorous.”

(with 200 mg and a 75 mg supplement) “A very strong climb, and a very good, interior feeling. It has some of the MDMA properties, but it is difficult to concentrate on any one point. There is a tendency to slide off. Excellent emotional affect; music is fine but not gripping. Someone had used the phrase, mental nystagmus, and there is something valid there. The supplement was taken at the 2 hour point when I was already aware of some dropping, and its action was noticed in about a half hour.”

(with 230 mg) “Physically, there was a bit of dry mouth but no teeth clenching, some nystagmus, maybe the slightest bit of dizziness, very anorexic, and it is not a decongestant. Mentally, it is extremely benign and pleasant, funny and good-humored. No visuals. Peaceful. Easy silences, easy talking. More stoning than MDMA.”

Some light afternoon reading and I’ll summerise the GREAT mans thoughts on the effects of the 4 compared to MDMA 😃"

"What Did Shulgin Say?

(1&2) MDPEA :poop::poop::poop:-- –
“It was taken twice at different times in a dosage of 200 milligrams each time, without the slightest peripheral or central effects.”

N-methyl-MDPEA :poop::poop: – -- –
“I have read nothing that would suggest that there were any central effects. I have tried it at this level and have found a little tightness of the facial muscles, but there was nothing at all in the mental area.”

(3) MDMA (Ecstacy) ❤❤❤❤❤
“I am afraid to turn around and face the mountains, for fear they will overpower me. But I did look, and I am astounded. Everyone must get to experience a profound state like this. I feel totally peaceful. I have lived all my life to get here, and I feel I have come home. I am complete.”

(4) MDPH: ❤❤ – -- –
"Quite like MDA 1, simple, with no lines, no colors, no motion, no fantasy. I am pleasantly stoned… This is not as rewarding (stoning) as MDA 1, and has none of the magic of MDMA. It was a short-lived plus two.”

(5) BDB ❤❤❤ – --
“A very strong climb, and a very good, interior feeling. It has some of the MDMA properties… Mentally, it is extremely benign and pleasant, funny and good-humored. No visuals. Peaceful. Easy silences, easy talking. More stoning than MDMA.”

There are loads (90+) of other isobaric compounds that give similar mass spectra to MDMA and based on the small sample above, its quite likely that a good number of them have stimulant/psychoactive effects on the body.

If any of active isomers are cheaper or easier to make than MDMA, then its not too much of a stretch to think that the chemists would get creative now and again.
I know I would 😂

So the last line of defence is to work with @EC-International to see if they can use one of the GCMS test methods that separates and identifies many of them. I think EC currently uses UV-spectroscopy for the tests so it may cost more but, it would be quite a revelation if these isomers were regularly detected in DNM pills being sold as MDMA/Ecstasy."

https://community.dnstars.vip/t/various-isomers-of-mdma-screened-in-seized-ecstasy-that-are-apparently-not-observed-in-other-labs/26979/74 At the bottom, some good posts in here, a lot of chatter in between but whats new lol, talk of getting reference samples for Energy Control
 

consciousness_

Greenlighter
Joined
Nov 6, 2019
Messages
1
Hello all,

I just found this fantastic thread and thought I might add my two cents to jump into the discussion.

Since I am in my twenties, I cannot comment on whether there was some magical MDMA around before the turn of the century - but I found that even in the last few years the quality of MDMA dropped considerably. I have taken MDMA around 50 times at various dose levels (50mg - 700mg), at various settings (alone at home, with my girlfriend, in nightclubs and at day time festivals), in various forms (pills, powder, crystals ), in various combinations (with Ketamin, LSD, Cannabis, Alcohol) and through various routes of administration (oral, nasal or dissolved in water). Even though I would never neglect that tolerance, set and setting are critical in shaping the quality of the experience, I found that MDMA from a specific source always gave me the same experience (either they were constantly good or constantly bad), no matter the setting, the time passed between uses, the ROA, or whether I took them in combination with other drugs. Moreover, I have initiated quite a few people to MDMA and whenever I gave them a pill from what I considered decent MDMA, their heart would crack open, whereas if I gave them what people her would refer to as mehMDMA, I could see the disappointment in their eyes because the experience did not live up to what I have been ranting about.

Even though I haven't read through the whole thread yet, what I might add to the discussion is that in my (limited) experience, I don't see it as much as a black or white issue in terms of quality (even though I don't rule out the possibility that I might reassess this viewpoint in case I will ever get my hands on some MDMA that puts even my best experiences into perspective). I say this because I have had great MDMA experiences in which I felt nothing but unconditional love towards everything and everyone, pure psychological and physical bliss and the desire to hug and kiss the whole world. Those experiences were so powerful they literally changed my life and left me with an opened heart for weeks after the substance has long left my system.

Out of the dozens of types of pills and powders, the best one I had was a Super Mario pill that was mistakenly sold to me as 2CB in London - the experience was pure ecstasy and if I had to describe it, I would use similar language as people in this forum used to describe the magical MDMA from the old days. Unfortunately, I could not find it again and I found that if you purchase a desired pill from the Darknet, you just end up with some counterfeit in your hand (e.g. I also had a very good experiences with some SIM CARD pills I got in Amsterdam in 2017, but when a friend purchased them from the Darknet, they were nothing but garbage). However, in the last two years, I have not found anything that comes even close to those experiences I had a few years back - I took ridiculously high doses in the hope to get there again but the only thing they gave me was a messed up short term memory and horrible hangovers.

In any case, even if it might be true that there is nothing out there anymore that resembles the MDMA from the old days, there were still some pills and powders floating around that provided fantastic MDMA experiences. However, in the last two years, something has truly changed to the worse and no matter where I looked or whom I asked, I could not find any account of a compound capable of delivering what I experienced just a few years back.

Finding this threat has actually been quite emotional for me. MDMA has so radically transformed my life for the better that it is hard to overstate how much I owe to this chemical. Moreover, it makes me sad that not everyone has access to this experience, which truly does hold the potential to change the world for the better. My experiences over the past two years, however, have been so bad that I started to doubt whether all of that has actually ever happened. Because so many people say MDMA = MDMA, I have started to doubt whether I got delusional since I always claimed that there are differences in quality (even when the test results show the same content and purity), but everyone around me just kept calling me crazy and said I have overdone it etc. Finding this threat has brought back some hope that someday more people can experience what I consider the most amazing thing on earth: The experience of pure and unconditional love.
 

vash445

Bluelighter
Joined
May 3, 2015
Messages
68
Indigo, since you have access to all these different samples, could you try doing multiple trials of each? I know its a waste of reagent, but it would help to eliminate the chance that the test result just varies just due to factors like amount of reagent used, amount of MDMA used, or other randomness. If one smokes, and the other doesn't, thats a whole lot more conclusive if it can be reproduced over and over on the same samples.
If indgio or people has both meh and magic.. I have access to NMR proton cosy, HPLC etc. a polimeter I could REALLY get us some answers. Especially because my friend is knowledgeable about this thread and analysis is his thing.
 
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indigoaura

Bluelighter
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
642
@vash445 All I have right now are multiple samples of meh. It is possible that this new sample is magic, but I just don't know. I will certainly donate some "meh" to science, but all I have right now is "meh."

@Hilopsilo I no longer have any of sample 3, but I can repeat testing on the other samples.
 

Hilopsilo

Bluelighter
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
530
If indgio or people has both meh and magic.. I have access to NMR proton cosy, HPLC etc. a polimeter I could REALLY get us some answers. Especially because my friend is knowledgeable about this thread and analysis is his thing.
Like I said, seriously beating myself up about accidentally geocaching my samples. If we haven't sorted this all out by then, I'll have access to the samples mid August 2020... They're an 8 hour drive away deep within a fallen tree on private property lol

Reading shulgins notes on the R and S isomers at 100mg, I know we've basically ruled out stereoisomers, but I'll be damned if that doesn't sound like the problem... "(with 100 mg of the “ S ” isomer) “I feel the onset is slower than with the racemate. Physically, I am excited, and my pulse and blood pressure are quite elevated. This does not have the ‘fire’ of the racemate, nor the rush of the development in getting to the plateau.” Sounds like some damn MehDMA to me, and it doesn't sound like the R-isomer does all that much on its own at all, which is interesting since I was under the impression that S-isomer is more potent but I didn't think it was so much that a full dose of R does basically nothing according to him.
 
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psy997

Bluelighter
Joined
Jul 9, 2012
Messages
2,317
Location
noitacoL
I know we've basically ruled out stereoisomers, but I'll be damned if that doesn't sound like the problem... "(with 100 mg of the “ S ” isomer) “I feel the onset is slower than with the racemate. Physically, I am excited, and my pulse and blood pressure are quite elevated. This does not have the ‘fire’ of the racemate, nor the rush of the development in getting to the plateau.” Sounds like some damn MehDMA to me, and it doesn't sound like the R-isomer does all that much on its own at all, which is interesting since I was under the impression that S-isomer is more potent but I didn't think it was so much that a full dose of R does basically nothing according to him.
Not that I'm against the stereoisomer theory and trying to disprove you simply because I believe otherwise, but IME Meh comes up just as quick as Magic, it just doesn't lead anywhere - as, I think, FUBAR always says.
 
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