What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

[simstim]

About the cathinones, don't snort them if you intend to experience a roll. For some reason eating them feels completely different. I've compared snorting to eating with butylone, methylone, 3-MMC, and 4-MMC and every time eating it produces a feeling identifiable as a "roll" where as snorting them feels different. Hard to describe but definitely a fact.

 

[indigoaura]

I don't have time right now to go back through my emails and quote directly from Drugs Data and IEC. However, I can tell you this from memory:

• Both companies stated that they cannot identify compounds they do not have standards for, and standards need to be purchased in order to identify rarer compounds. Drugs Data actually did purchase quite a few standards for some of the "isobaric derivatives" we had identified as possible MDMA impersonators. They did not find that any of those compounds were present in previously submitted MDMA samples when they ran a query of some kind. I do recall that 2,3-MDMA was one of the samples they checked. IEC stated basically the same thing, that they needed to own the standards in order to identify quantity. They said that was why they could not tell me how much MDDMA was present in my sample.
• However, there is also an issue with how the machine's settings are configured. IEC told me that they do not look for synthesis byproducts and they have to change the sensitivity settings of the machines in order to identify those byproducts.
• On top of those issues, you still have the question of overlapping peaks and whether the person interpreting the graphs is skilled enough to identify compounds with overlapping peaks.
• PLUS, from published research, I recall reading that some synthesis byproducts will only be apparent if larger quantities are being tested. The 50 mg required by the harm reduction labs is not enough to show some of the byproducts.

These labs do not exist to identify small amounts of synthesis byproducts present in MDMA. That is not their focus or goal. From the IEC website:

At Energy Control, like most other harm reduction organizations, our goal is not to be as precise as possible, but to reach as many people as possible, and provide them with useful information to help them make safer choices. Unlike a professional lab, this means that slight trade-offs are made in the amount of detail given if that means an even bigger improvement in cost or speed can be made.

So, in other words, if a sample of MDMA is submitted that has small amounts of synthesis byproducts present, it is unlikely they will be reported. I don't say this to be critical of the labs, but again, this is not their focus.

 

[unodelacosa]

Cathinones which are both alpha methyl and are usually either primary or secondary amines (methcathinone, 4-MMC, bk-MDMA, cathinone, etc.) will act like non beta keto amphetamine counterparts as releasing agents. Generally only certain substituted cathinones that have long alpha side chains and/or pyrole rings are going to be the reuptake inhibitors. Drugs like MDPV, PVP, MDPPP, Pentedrone, etc.

The actual stucture of cathinone is beta keto amphetamine and it is a releasing agent. Calling other drugs which are technically not amphetamines by virtue of not even being "alpha methyl" by the name "cathinone" is a bit misleading because it's structure is not technically that of bk-amphetamine. It would be better to call these chemicals substituted beta keto phenethylamines in my opinion but they are generally referred to as substituted cathinones instead.

3 and 4-MMC are both triple releasing agents like MDMA. If you want references just tell me as they're very easy to find. If you can't source MDMA or even if MDMA isn't working anymore 3 and 4 MMC more than fit the bill of replacement for me. I agree they feel a bit unique compared to MDMA but believe me they are both a very intense roll and certainly nothing at all like the reuptake inhibitors like MDPV and whatnot. Completely different class of drugs, despite both being substituted beta keto phenethylamines.

Oh wow, I'm absolutely wrong about that! Sorry about that, everyone, and thank you for the correction, @simstim. That's so odd, because to me, both 4-MMC and 3-MMC feel more like reuptake inhibitors and I guess I assumed since so many of the other RC cathinones out there act as reuptake inhibitors they would b no different. But for example, articles like this tell otherwise: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3246659/

However 3-MMC it appears is far less serotonergic than 4-MMC, and that checks out personally with my experiences with these drugs. Goddamn, they have really short durations for releasing agents. That's too bad.

Also, this is just my personal opinion—and you're right that MDMA experiences are highly subjective and valued differently—but in no way would 3-MMC substitute as MDMA in terms of effects. 4-MMC is a stretch, but I an at least see someone being satisfied with it as a sub. 3-MMC is much more purely stimulating. But eh, just my proverbial $0.02.

Also it's considered by many

Who? Weak argument.

that the feel of MDMA isn't necessarily that unique

Things cannot be varying degrees of unique. It is an absolute – a thing either is or is not unique. It means “one-of-a-kind”, after all. Personally I consider MDMA's pharmaceutical action to be unique.

and many drugs will substitute in animals. Just some food for thought. Please Don't poopoo cathinone triple releasers without trying them just because you've heard others do so.

Ok first “poo-poo” as a verb is hilarious.
Second, I'm not saying anything bad about cathinone drugs. I love some of the cathinones including methcathinone (which I've synthesized a few times many years ago), khat (cathinone from the catha edulis plant), MDPV, α-PVP, bk-MDMA (methylone), bk-2C-B, NEP, and a few others I'm forgetting at the moment.
Third, I'm a little insulted at the insinuation that I would form my opinions on drugs not on my own experiences but on the mere words of others. I've done all these drugs myself or I would qualify my statements otherwise. You're not the only one with experience around here.

True they are distinguishably different from MDMA the effects can be on par with and even in a few cases may surpass the feeling of MDMA despite being a bit different.

Right. As stated: they are different. Why are you so defensive over this class of drugs? I never called them inferior. Again: I simply said that they are different, should be treated and thought of differently, and I guess a better way to state what I said before is that they should not be represented as MDMA/Ecstasy, instead of saying that they should "substitute for". True, their effects are in the same ballpark, and thanks again for the correction that they act as RAs not RIs. Meaning to say: I have no qualms with taking these drugs instead of MDMA, I just want to echo the notion that the user should be informed that they are taking 4-MMC instead of MDMA, for example.

I think certainly bk-MDMA and 4-MMC have earned a special place in history on their own and are likely to continue to exist even in illegal markets at this point.

No arguments here. I said this already, and I think they should also be recognized as separate from "ecstasy". The name “meow meow” is so ridiculously stupid that I sort of like it, lol.

 

[simstim]

@unodelacosa have you tried either 3 or 4 MMC orally? Your experience of them sounds typical to me of people's experience when using them nasally. It's a quite different experience. Just wondering, cheers!

 

[unodelacosa]

@unodelacosa have you tried either 3 or 4 MMC orally? Your experience of them sounds typical to me of people's experience when using them nasally. It's a quite different experience. Just wondering, cheers!

Yes, I've mostly used those drugs orally, that being a prefered route for me to insufflation, and I rarely am down for sticking myself with a needle (though not above muscle-bumping k maybe twice a year or something), and it's just plain inconvenient to go suitcasing psychostims a la boof… what does that leave? I doubt it's easy, if even possible, to vape 4-MMC and 3-MMC, at least not in salt form. Could apply some soda ash…

It doesn't surprise me to hear the qualitative effects change with the RoA, comparing ingestion to insufflation of 3- and 4-MMC. Reminds me of DPT.HCL in which an oral dose might be ~200 mg and the come-up is fast but still much more gradual compared to insufflation of DPT in which one would only want to dose ~40 mg, ~50 mg tops. These doses are different between nasal and oral consumption, and both routes produce much more body load than if you apply some sodium carbonate and water and heat the mixture to freebase the DPT and inhale the vapor. Here again, you would only dose ~40 mg and hold the hit(s) for ~20 sec, similar to vaping DMT. This is my fave RoA for DPT (vaporization), but my favorite RoA for 3-MMC and 4-MMC is oral ingestion. Snorting large quantities of powder up the nose is largely an unpleasant affair with the possible exceptions of really clean, pure cocaine and/or ketamine.hcl, especially if the batch in question has an appreciable amount of topical anesthesia it induces… this quality lacks from most cathinone drugs, 3- and 4-MMC being no exceptions, but hey, that's just moi. Your proverbial mileage—or kilometerage or whatever's the equivs depending on who's reading this—may, of course, vary.

To tie this concept back to the topic: for me, it was helpful to experiment with different RoAs to breakthrough some of the walls I had hit in the past regarding MDMA appreciation and notions of lost magic. Just please do so with harm reduction techniques in mind. But seriously, it's worth considering boofing that next bit of MDMA you encounter, or maybe try combining a few routes, just watch the total dosage of course. The point being that perhaps it's a way of surprising our brains, so to speak, with how it encounters a drug / new pattern of synapse firings. Not saying this fully explains the “What Is Wrong With MDMA Available Today?” / “Loss of Magic” phenomenon, but it's difficult to rule things out in so many ways. At least for me, it is. Again: mileage and all…

 

[TripSitterNZ]

as a chemist i am now 100% certain what is going wrong is that these cooks are making the wrong inactive polymorph crystal of mdma.

Polymorphs radically change the activity of pharmaceutical drugs. And these cooks are just making it in large batches not even fine crafting their crystals.

 

[simstim]

Yes, I've mostly used those drugs orally, that being a prefered route for me to insufflation, and I rarely am down for sticking myself with a needle (though not above muscle-bumping k maybe twice a year or something), and it's just plain inconvenient to go suitcasing psychostims a la boof… what does that leave? I doubt it's easy, if even possible, to vape 4-MMC and 3-MMC, at least not in salt form. Could apply some soda ash…

It doesn't surprise me to hear the qualitative effects change with the RoA, comparing ingestion to insufflation of 3- and 4-MMC. Reminds me of DPT.HCL in which an oral dose might be ~200 mg and the come-up is fast but still much more gradual compared to insufflation of DPT in which one would only want to dose ~40 mg, ~50 mg tops. These doses are different between nasal and oral consumption, and both routes produce much more body load than if you apply some sodium carbonate and water and heat the mixture to freebase the DPT and inhale the vapor. Here again, you would only dose ~40 mg and hold the hit(s) for ~20 sec, similar to vaping DMT. This is my fave RoA for DPT (vaporization), but my favorite RoA for 3-MMC and 4-MMC is oral ingestion. Snorting large quantities of powder up the nose is largely an unpleasant affair with the possible exceptions of really clean, pure cocaine and/or ketamine.hcl, especially if the batch in question has an appreciable amount of topical anesthesia it induces… this quality lacks from most cathinone drugs, 3- and 4-MMC being no exceptions, but hey, that's just moi. Your proverbial mileage—or kilometerage or whatever's the equivs depending on who's reading this—may, of course, vary.

To tie this concept back to the topic: for me, it was helpful to experiment with different RoAs to breakthrough some of the walls I had hit in the past regarding MDMA appreciation and notions of lost magic. Just please do so with harm reduction techniques in mind. But seriously, it's worth considering boofing that next bit of MDMA you encounter, or maybe try combining a few routes, just watch the total dosage of course. The point being that perhaps it's a way of surprising our brains, so to speak, with how it encounters a drug / new pattern of synapse firings. Not saying this fully explains the “What Is Wrong With MDMA Available Today?” / “Loss of Magic” phenomenon, but it's difficult to rule things out in so many ways. At least for me, it is. Again: mileage and all…

My favourite dose of DPT is 90mg intranasal.
Don't put things up my ass. I think I'll stick with my half gram oral doses of MDMA.

 

[ThreePointCircle]

as a chemist i am now 100% certain what is going wrong is that these cooks are making the wrong inactive polymorph crystal of mdma.

Polymorphs radically change the activity of pharmaceutical drugs. And these cooks are just making it in large batches not even fine crafting their crystals.

This study says only one polymorph has been observed and they couldn't get any more from applying pressure.

 

[TripSitterNZ]

This study says only one polymorph has been observed and they couldn't get any more from applying pressure.

no shit polymorphs are fucking hard to make it takes billions to discover them more. There will be alot of polymorphs out there

 

[Negi]

no shit polymorphs are fucking hard to make it takes billions to discover them more.

So the reason you think they are cropping up in certain MDMA batches is?

Anyway, this is something super easy to test. From the paper ThreePointCircle linked:

MDMA.HCl recrystallizes in one polymorphic form under ambient conditions. It crystallises in
orthorhombic Pca21 with one formula unit in the asymmetric unit. We have attempted to recrystallise
the sample from a range of solvents but it only had sufficient solubility in IPA and water.

Dissolve some MDMA you think is a different polymorph in a small amount of boiling hot IPA, let it cool (a few hours at room temperature, then in the freezer) and then try the MDMA crystals that emerge to see if there is a difference.
Here's a more indepth guide if you want one.

 

[user666]

The variability due to crystalline polymorphisms can be completely eliminated by consuming the racemic 3,4-MDMA Hydrochloride in solution.
This way solid crystals do not even exist.

 

[Rectify]

The MDMA available today is nowhere near as good as it was in the 1990s. Better than nothing? Yeah, there is a little relaxation, a touch of music and color enhancement, a very minor stimmyness, and a low dose of enhanced music appreciation--but that's after eating a handful of the new ones. Overall, it is barely worth doing at all anymore.

 

[PsychedelicSummer]

The MDMA available today is nowhere near as good as it was in the 1990s. Better than nothing? Yeah, there is a little relaxation, a touch of music and color enhancement, a very minor stimmyness, and a low dose of enhanced music appreciation--but that's after eating a handful of the new ones. Overall, it is barely worth doing at all anymore.

Agreed! I've got 5-10 g from 5-10 different batches laying around - booth pills and crystals - and no desire to consume any of them again. Can't understand why all of them got so good reviews on DN markets. Does most consumers not know the real stuff? BTW, I'm in northern Europe and several of my samples have also been tried by a friend who's taken MDMA less than 5 times. I've had the real deal less than 10 times. First 2 times in 1987, than got 1 g of real MDMA about 4-5 years ago. Sometimes I've been thinking it's something with me as I've kind of gotten Meh-experiences from what's been sold to me as MDA, 6-APB, MAPB and 4-MMC, but as previously stated a friend gets the the same Meh experience as me. I'll say it again, my hunch is that the culprit behind all this MehDMA may be due to some kind of isomers. Perhaps a good chemist once sat down and thought about how to create an isomer to MDMA from an easily available precursor? Maybe a good question which may help us resolve this mystery? Otherwise I think we must focus our efforts on how to get a real lab do the necessary analysis to resolve this.

 

[Psychestim]

This is got to be one of the most interesting threads on BL. Love how everyone is so invested in getting to the bottom of this. Too bad I can't really contribute anything useful because I was a little kid in the 90's and early 00's. I have done a fair amount of Ecstasy/MDMA over the last couple of years (starting in 2016) and to imagine that this is not the "real deal" is pretty hard for me to grasp. Especially since I rolled my god-damn tits off dozens of great (IMO) pills (e.g. 220mg blue Punisher's, 272mg silver Plata Plomo's, 263mg purple Tomorrowland's) and 99.8% pure white MDMA crystals (god bless free lab-testing) and experienced exactly what most people raved about. I had so many insanely euphoric rolls and unbelievably amazing nights on this drug that the thought of an even better version of the same substance makes my mouth water lol. Extremely fascinating to hear about all of your experiences and different hypotheses on this topic. Hope you guys find out what the issue with today's MehDMA is and that the even better stuff becomes publically available again.

I have one question to the oldheads of this thread though. Do you also notice a consistent and significant difference in quality of the modern MDA compared to the 90's stuff?

 

[simstim]

This is got to be one of the most interesting threads on BL. Love how everyone is so invested in getting to the bottom of this. Too bad I can't really contribute anything useful because I was a little kid in the 90's and early 00's. I have done a fair amount of Ecstasy/MDMA over the last couple of years (starting in 2016) and to imagine that this is not the "real deal" is pretty hard for me to grasp. Especially since I rolled my god-damn tits off dozens of great (IMO) pills (e.g. 220mg blue Punisher's, 272mg silver Plata Plomo's, 263mg purple Tomorrowland's) and 99.8% pure white MDMA crystals (god bless free lab-testing) and experienced exactly what most people raved about. I had so many insanely euphoric rolls and unbelievably amazing nights on this drug that the thought of an even better version of the same substance makes my mouth water lol. Extremely fascinating to hear about all of your experiences and different hypotheses on this topic. Hope you guys find out what the issue with today's MehDMA is and that the good stuff becomes publically available again.

I have one question to the oldheads of this thread though. Do you also notice a consistent and significant difference in quality of the modern MDA compared to the 90's stuff?

I started rolling in 2003 and the pills i get today are stronger than they used to be. I took an 11 year break from rolling and was pretty surprised the first time i rolled recently. However, i like to take half a gram as a starting dose.

I don't understand if mehdma phenomena is caused by permanent tolerance and people being reluctant to try higher doses or bad supply. I think If you aren't rolling hard enough maybe you just didn't take enough.

 

[PsychedelicSummer]

I started rolling in 2003 and the pills i get today are stronger than they used to be. I took an 11 year break from rolling and was pretty surprised the first time i rolled recently. However, i like to take half a gram as a starting dose.

I don't understand if mehdma phenomena is caused by permanent tolerance and people being reluctant to try higher doses or bad supply. I think If you aren't rolling hard enough maybe you just didn't take enough.

With real MDMA I roll fine on 120 mg. With MehDMA I just get more tired and more asocial if I increase the dose. Have thrown up also from attempting increasing the dosage. Tolerance shouldn't sudenly more than double from, like in my case, 9th time of use to the 10th time. But as stated many times, it is not black or white. Some product is a bit better, or should I say less bad? - than other. And sure, some are lucky and get good MDMA.

 

[AutoTripper]

I started rolling in 2003 and the pills i get today are stronger than they used to be. I took an 11 year break from rolling and was pretty surprised the first time i rolled recently. However, i like to take half a gram as a starting dose.

I don't understand if mehdma phenomena is caused by permanent tolerance and people being reluctant to try higher doses or bad supply. I think If you aren't rolling hard enough maybe you just didn't take enough.

Did you have, out curiosity, by chance…2004 Playstations, MDA type effect.

Or 2005 Heineken Stars? Well pressed, not flat domed, not deep widish big stay on each side possibly but not dead sure on that bit.

Yellow or blue “B’s” for Bentley?

 

[simstim]

With real MDMA I roll fine on 120 mg. With MehDMA I just get more tired and more asocial if I increase the dose. Have thrown up also from attempting increasing the dosage. Tolerance shouldn't sudenly more than double from, like in my case, 9th time of use to the 10th time. But as stated many times, it is not black or white. Some product is a bit better, or should I say less bad? - than other. And sure, some are lucky and get good MDMA.

I always say if MDMA not working try some mephedrone or even metaphedrone. If you still can't roll it's likely to be something other than the drugs causing it. Medication, tolerance, something...

 

[AutoTripper]

I always say if MDMA not working try some mephedrone or even metaphedrone. If you still can't roll it's likely to be something other than the drugs causing it. Medication, tolerance, something...

Yes, but let’s keep sight of the fact That good proper MDMA it’s not denied from still being in circulation depending on area and source so it’s quite possible that others are accessing MDMA which is not working the same as your Own source which could be the problem if Meh, does exist.

 

[simstim]

Did you have, out curiosity, by chance…2004 Playstations, MDA type effect.

Or 2005 Heineken Stars? Well pressed, not flat domed, not deep widish big stay on each side possibly but not dead sure on that bit.

Yellow or blue “B’s” for Bentley?

Some of the best pills i ever had were red or purple Christmas trees circa 2005-2006. I forgot what my first pills were stamped but they blew my mind in 2003. Seems like they were Rolex crowns but not positive.