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What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

indigoaura

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This is pretty interesting: https://sci-hub.st/10.1007/s00213-014-3528-z

I have only skimmed the article, but it seems to show a pretty consistent response to MDMA across multiple testing sites. Although tolerance does play a part, the researchers described evidence for tolerance as only "modest." Interestingly, geographical location played a significant role in some of the subjective effects. "That is, SF participants reported relatively greater ratings of Closeness to Others and Chicago participants reported greater ratings of Anxious following MDMA administration."

"In any case, however, the present findings provide little support for the idea that the first response to this drug is dramatically greater than subsequent uses."
 

indigoaura

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Have we talked about degenerative changes related to aging being a factor?

Most of the new users I shared product with were MDMA virgins, but they were older people (late 30s, early 40s).

Could there be DNA changes or other factors related to aging that are contributing?
 

TripSitterNZ

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Not all PMK is made from safrole.
the other way would them just using piperonal which is not a secret. Dutch chemists have already come with extremely underground precousers which are legal to replace everything else. And i wont name them in the open space to help the dumb asses at the DEA add them all to the UN list.
 

finitelifeform

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It would be great to talk to a chemist or scientist who works for MAPS or somewhere that they are doing trials/therapy with pharmaceutical grade mdma.
We could then find out the pre curser that they are using or if what they may have access to which the illicit drugs gangs don’t?

I assume the drug gang chemists are pretty well in the know in Holland and other places where they make these drugs.
I’ve never heard anyone being treated for PTSD with mdma to come out complaining that the product was underwhelming or didn’t do shit for them ha ha.

Is that strong aniseed smell still present on current batches of mdma aswell?
It's made in-house by academic establishments. It's always been the case. I believe it's Purdue University who synthesize both LSD and MDMA. David Nichols has been one of only a select few chemists allowed to legally produce pharmaceutrical grade substances like LSD and MDMA. He has produced lots of groundbreaking research on both LSD and MDMA. He is arguably one of the most respected scientists in the world on subjects involve these substances and his work is cited worldwide. I know that historically much of the substances used in research and trials has been linked to himself and his university.

He will have access to everything. He is, and has been, an authorized manufacturer and supplier of many different substances over the decades.
That being said, it's all in the realm of strict regulation and although synthesis is public knowledge, and has been for a long time, everything else will be strictly protected information.
 

Negi

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It's made in-house by academic establishments. It's always been the case. I believe it's Purdue University who synthesize both LSD and MDMA.
MAPS used that MDMA for the phase 2 trials, but they needed MDMA with a fully documented synthesis for the phase 3.

In 2017, when MAPS begins conducting our Phase 3 clinical trials on MDMA-assisted psychotherapy as a treatment for posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), we will need 500 grams or more of methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA). This material must be manufactured under very specific conditions, called Good Manufacturing Practices (GMP). These practices refer to the conditions found in the laboratory where the drug is made, the documentation of the chemicals involved in the synthesis, the manufacturing process, and specific analyses of stability and purity. GMP-certified MDMA is not only required for Phase 3 studies in the U.S., but also for trials in the European Union.

The MDMA that was used in MAPS’ U.S. Phase 2 studies was manufactured by David Nichols at Purdue University in 1985. The MDMA used in our Swiss and Canadian Phase 2 trials was manufactured in Switzerland in 1998 by pharmaceutical supplier Lipomed AG. Both original batches are highly pure and stable, but neither was made under GMP. As a result, despite having access to pure and stable MDMA, MAPS had to locate a company willing and able to manufacture GMP MDMA for our Phase 3 studies, which meant that the company also had to possess or obtain a Schedule I license from the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA). At first, we had some hope that we could obtain retroactive GMP certification for the MDMA we already had, however we soon learned that regulators would require us to make a new batch of MDMA from scratch.
 

G_Chem

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This is pretty interesting: https://sci-hub.st/10.1007/s00213-014-3528-z

I have only skimmed the article, but it seems to show a pretty consistent response to MDMA across multiple testing sites. Although tolerance does play a part, the researchers described evidence for tolerance as only "modest." Interestingly, geographical location played a significant role in some of the subjective effects. "That is, SF participants reported relatively greater ratings of Closeness to Others and Chicago participants reported greater ratings of Anxious following MDMA administration."

"In any case, however, the present findings provide little support for the idea that the first response to this drug is dramatically greater than subsequent uses."

Really interesting article!! My experience correlates perfectly, wouldn’t life be terrible if only our first few rolls were the good ones?

I’ve been seeing on Reddit lately often the argument that Ann Shulgin spoke of losing the magic herself. She also took the drug pretty much every weekend or more for years on end, in efforts to help her writing.. I doubt she would’ve kept consuming it if it were to have become a shit experience.

It seems in that article tolerance doesn’t play a huge effect on things. I could see Chicago users of 2014 having overall the highest tolerances as there’s a lot more MDA there (especially then) compared to SF. Not sure on the Basel scene ;)

But ya age/past use unless you went nuts don’t mean much, I roll harder than the kids I see these days so ya.. I had my fair share of binges as a kid/young man, couple of 4 day sessions, plenty of 3 day sessions, and more 2 day sessions than 1 day.. Reddit would have you think I’m a bumbling fool that lost that magic at year 1. (I should say though I’ve always kept the dosage reasonable, a big important factor.)

One more thing, look at the closeness to others graph and notice how for placebo with Chicago the bar dips negative compared to the other two lol. That sounds about right for Chi, don’t wanna talk to your ass unless they’re full of MDMA. What’s even more interesting is that they also have the highest peaks for placebo with “drug effects” and “drug liking.”

-GC
 
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indigoaura

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Really interesting article!! My experience correlates perfectly, wouldn’t life be terrible if only our first few rolls were the good ones?

I’ve been seeing on Reddit lately often the argument that Ann Shulgin spoke of losing the magic herself. She also took the drug pretty much every weekend or more for years on end, in efforts to help her writing.. I doubt she would’ve kept consuming it if it were to have become a shit experience.

It seems in that article tolerance doesn’t play a huge effect on things. I could see Chicago users of 2014 having overall the highest tolerances as there’s a lot more MDA there (especially then) compared to SF. Not sure on the Basel scene ;)

But ya age/past use unless you went nuts don’t mean much, I roll harder than the kids I see these days so ya.. I had my fair share of binges as a kid/young man, couple of 4 day sessions, plenty of 3 day sessions, and more 2 day sessions than 1 day.. Reddit would have you think I’m a bumbling fool that lost that magic at year 1. (I should say though I’ve always kept the dosage reasonable, a big important factor.)

One more thing, look at the closeness to others graph and notice how for placebo with Chicago the bar dips negative compared to the other two lol. That sounds about right for Chi, don’t wanna talk to your ass unless they’re full of MDMA. What’s even more interesting is that they also have the highest peaks for placebo with “drug effects” and “drug liking.”

-GC

My best roll was definitely not my first roll. The first roll was special because I did not know what to expect, but I had far better pills years later.

I think one common misconception in this thread is that those of us who think something is wrong with some of the MDMA going around somehow don't believe in "losing the magic." I absolutely believe in "losing the magic." I knew people who lost it and stopped using E, because it no longer worked for them. They were all people who had burned the candle at both ends, using many pills, several days per week, for weeks on end.

For me, there were several factors that made me think that was not the case for me. One was that my partner and I both noticed the change in quality at the same time, and it happened when we changed suppliers. We had been using ecstasy once a month from the same supplier for years, and we always had a predictable & enjoyable time. The change was just drastic and sudden. I recall a party we went to with all of our friends where we were testing out some molly after my supplier quit. Everyone there had the same sleepy, downer, experience. We thought it was just a bad batch, but that was just the new reality.

What are the chances of people with different histories of use all losing the magic at the same time? I've talked before about how this was right after the big international bust in the area. A whole distribution ring was shut down. Whatever had been coming into the area was no longer being imported, those people were in jail.

To clarify for readers as well, after my initial supplier quit, most of my friends had moved on to suburbs, bars, and babies. No one was connected. I found a new supplier, and I stuck with that supplier from that point forward (even though the product was not as good). So, I was not sampling different batches until fairly recently.

What's sad is that while that initial change in quality may have been supply related, I spent a LONG time using "meh-DMA," some of which contained enough 1-(3,4-methyleendioxy)phenylpropane-2-ol that it was detectable by Drugs Data. Who knows what damage that may have done, and by this point, I may genuinely have "lost the magic" as the result of all the years spent dabbling with questionable batches of MDMA.
 

finitelifeform

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My best roll was definitely not my first roll. The first roll was special because I did not know what to expect, but I had far better pills years later.

I think one common misconception in this thread is that those of us who think something is wrong with some of the MDMA going around somehow don't believe in "losing the magic." I absolutely believe in "losing the magic." I knew people who lost it and stopped using E, because it no longer worked for them. They were all people who had burned the candle at both ends, using many pills, several days per week, for weeks on end.

For me, there were several factors that made me think that was not the case for me. One was that my partner and I both noticed the change in quality at the same time, and it happened when we changed suppliers. We had been using ecstasy once a month from the same supplier for years, and we always had a predictable & enjoyable time. The change was just drastic and sudden. I recall a party we went to with all of our friends where we were testing out some molly after my supplier quit. Everyone there had the same sleepy, downer, experience. We thought it was just a bad batch, but that was just the new reality.

What are the chances of people with different histories of use all losing the magic at the same time? I've talked before about how this was right after the big international bust in the area. A whole distribution ring was shut down. Whatever had been coming into the area was no longer being imported, those people were in jail.

To clarify for readers as well, after my initial supplier quit, most of my friends had moved on to suburbs, bars, and babies. No one was connected. I found a new supplier, and I stuck with that supplier from that point forward (even though the product was not as good). So, I was not sampling different batches until fairly recently.

What's sad is that while that initial change in quality may have been supply related, I spent a LONG time using "meh-DMA," some of which contained enough 1-(3,4-methyleendioxy)phenylpropane-2-ol that it was detectable by Drugs Data. Who knows what damage that may have done, and by this point, I may genuinely have "lost the magic" as the result of all the years spent dabbling with questionable batches of MDMA.
True. However, what about people who have taken MDMA less than, say, 5 times in their entire life?
I personally haven't taken it weekly or even monthly, ever. The last time I took MDMA and actually rolled was before 2007-08. The most I ever took it was perhaps twice in a month and that was back then. That entire time afterwards I have 'tried' to roll once or twice but got garbage.
I do believe in losing the magic and it's the same for ALL drugs. Obviously with things like smoking weed once you're a regular smoker the same little bud that would get you high for a few hours now doesn't. You can roll the biggest joint you want and you'll reach a point, true, but it won't be like it was when you smoked far less. That being said, you can get the magic back by simply not taking as much. Stopping taking anything at all works great too.

Still, there's no magic even after over a decade of not taking anything and never having a track record of ever using it often.
 

G_Chem

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True. However, what about people who have taken MDMA less than, say, 5 times in their entire life?
I personally haven't taken it weekly or even monthly, ever. The last time I took MDMA and actually rolled was before 2007-08. The most I ever took it was perhaps twice in a month and that was back then. That entire time afterwards I have 'tried' to roll once or twice but got garbage.
I do believe in losing the magic and it's the same for ALL drugs. Obviously with things like smoking weed once you're a regular smoker the same little bud that would get you high for a few hours now doesn't. You can roll the biggest joint you want and you'll reach a point, true, but it won't be like it was when you smoked far less. That being said, you can get the magic back by simply not taking as much. Stopping taking anything at all works great too.

Still, there's no magic even after over a decade of not taking anything and never having a track record of ever using it often.

You feel you lost the magic after 5 uses? It just doesn’t work that way, at least for most people. If all drugs don’t work for you anymore I’d assume it might be personal. Or the product is off your getting... (You also said you only tried a few times too.)

I still highly enjoy cannabis even after 15+yrs daily use. LSD is just as good if not better than my first trip. Amphetamine works just as well as always. Same as MDMA.

Tolerance has gone up a bit for some drugs, but most haven’t.

-GC
 

finitelifeform

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You feel you lost the magic after 5 uses? It just doesn’t work that way, at least for most people. If all drugs don’t work for you anymore I’d assume it might be personal. Or the product is off your getting... (You also said you only tried a few times too.)

I still highly enjoy cannabis even after 15+yrs daily use. LSD is just as good if not better than my first trip. Amphetamine works just as well as always. Same as MDMA.

Tolerance has gone up a bit for some drugs, but most haven’t.

-GC

Just MDMA. It would be strange if I had lost the magic after only around 5 experiences, but that's my point, I haven't had a proper roll since over a decade. It's likely nothing to do with losing the magic but what I was trying to get at was that some people won't be taking as much as others and some wouldn't have come close to burning out and yet there are many people who can't get the feeling of a good MDMA experience back again. There was a post in this forum about somebody who hadn't rolled for years and was seeking to roll again and they didn't feel anything to their own disappointment.

It's not black and white. Not everybody is taking it all the time and yet they are experiencing similiar things as those who have taken more than enough to have started to lose the magic.
I actually feel for the people who have never actually had a proper MDMA experience at all having only scored the sort of trash wannabe MDMA that often seems to be floating around.

Weed I have to taper down in order to get the same effects as when I was a 'virgin' to it. I believe it's the same for lots of people. The 'virgin' experience on weed literally happens once, maybe twice or three times and then the experience normalizes. Takes a few months of completely stopping but then once I start again it's a crusade just to balance the dosing for therapeutic uses and then I end up overblowing it and smoking for the hell of it. Then I need more to get the same effect I got with less, ad infitum. I don't and won't smoke weed anymore due to anxiety, panic attacks, PTSD etc. It's good when it's controlled but controlling it is the challenge. One sprinkle of good weed ground up should be enough for the day and by that I mean 0.1g, maybe less. That turns into a whole bag and that's when the mental sides show themselves, at least for me anyway.

It's good you're finding less resistance from the tolerance side of things.
 

indigoaura

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Just MDMA. It would be strange if I had lost the magic after only around 5 experiences, but that's my point, I haven't had a proper roll since over a decade. It's likely nothing to do with losing the magic but what I was trying to get at was that some people won't be taking as much as others and some wouldn't have come close to burning out and yet there are many people who can't get the feeling of a good MDMA experience back again. There was a post in this forum about somebody who hadn't rolled for years and was seeking to roll again and they didn't feel anything to their own disappointment.

It's not black and white. Not everybody is taking it all the time and yet they are experiencing similiar things as those who have taken more than enough to have started to lose the magic.
I actually feel for the people who have never actually had a proper MDMA experience at all having only scored the sort of trash wannabe MDMA that often seems to be floating around.

Weed I have to taper down in order to get the same effects as when I was a 'virgin' to it. I believe it's the same for lots of people. The 'virgin' experience on weed literally happens once, maybe twice or three times and then the experience normalizes. Takes a few months of completely stopping but then once I start again it's a crusade just to balance the dosing for therapeutic uses and then I end up overblowing it and smoking for the hell of it. Then I need more to get the same effect I got with less, ad infitum. I don't and won't smoke weed anymore due to anxiety, panic attacks, PTSD etc. It's good when it's controlled but controlling it is the challenge. One sprinkle of good weed ground up should be enough for the day and by that I mean 0.1g, maybe less. That turns into a whole bag and that's when the mental sides show themselves, at least for me anyway.

It's good you're finding less resistance from the tolerance side of things.

I agree with you.

My most recent post was just trying to acknowledge the possibility that the issue is me. In general, however, I believe the problem is with the product. I have seen too many people have the exact same response as me, including new users, and there are too many stories from people with the same observations. Actually, I am usually the person who is arguing that the problem is with the product. :)

As for paranoia on weed.. have you tried straight indica? My partner can have an experience free of paranoia on indica.
 

somnilicious

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I’m assuming he’s from the UK too. For MDMA here it’s stayed the same, speed has never really been around here either way, Heroin definitely shittier/nonexistent and cocaine about the same.

We also never really had an RC scene, so that may effect things. People would scoff at the occasional meph or MDPV use in my circle.

-GC
In the Orlando area MDMA is almost non existent. In the 90's you could get good Dutch pills for $7-$10. I've been looking for a while and all the pills are meth and I don't even know what the molly is but it's not MDMA. Good MDMA was just so cheap and plentiful back then. I suppose it all depends on your connect now a days but it was just so easy to get killer rolls back then. You didn't have to know anybody.

I'd agree with the rest of your statement. I'm just glad real, quality LSD is back. It was extremely difficultt to find for a while.

Sorry for not contributing much to the topic...lol
 
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user666

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MAPS used pmk as the starting material. PMK has huge uses legally in perfume fragrance industry
PMK is unstable and as such - unsuitable for storage/trade. Most MDMA synths go through the intermediate PMK step, they do not start with it. Three well known substances used in perfumery are Helional, Piperonal and Safrole.
 
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TripSitterNZ

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PMK is unstable and as such - unsuitable for storage/trade. Most MDMA synths go through the intermediate PMK step, they do not start with it. Three well known substances used in perfumery are Helional, Piperonal and Safrole.
any chemical industry that handles such things already stores at so it is stable. its not like some teen is just going to have pmk and leave it on his desk. BMK and PMK have been stored by the ton totally fine.
 

G_Chem

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In the Orlando area MDMA is almost non existent. In the 90's you could get good Dutch pills for $7-$10. I've been looking for a while and all the pills are meth and I don't even know what the molly is but it's not MDMA. Good MDMA was just so cheap and plentiful back then. I suppose it all depends on your connect now a days but it was just so easy to get killer rolls back then. You didn't have to know anybody.

I'd agree with the rest of your statement. I'm just glad real, quality LSD is back. It was extremely difficultt to find for a while.

Sorry for not contributing much to the topic...lol

Yea man I actually had a family member (well a couple but only 1 did time) who got busted trying to smuggle ecstasy back via plane from Netherlands in the 90’s. Back then it was as easy as could be... He got away with it for years before he got caught.

I’d say FL has had the biggest scene change out of anywhere regarding MDMA. The 90’s sounds like it was one of the top places. Texas also has changed a lot but not as much as FL.

I think once domestic production really ramped back, those places hurt the most since a lot of labs were in the Southwest.


Also I’ll side with TripSitter in this one, PMK by the barrel is still likely used but just not as often as the glycidate due to storage and transport. In the 90’s I guess the Dutch moved from safrole to PMK which gave boom to the Mitsubishi press, according to mixmag at the time.

PMK from what I’ve read is actually more stable than people give it credit. I’ve heard it being stored for months/years at RT with little to no degradation.

Again though it’s a lot easier to smuggle a stable powder than a oily somewhat unstable liquid. And international regulations up until recently still had it legal in places like China.

Now with glycidate illegal too I expect to see a dip in quality (which we’re already seeing, but could also be Covid related) so if you get good product nows time to stock up. Who knows though maybe the next route they use will give more “magic” again too..

-GC
 

somnilicious

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Yea man I actually had a family member (well a couple but only 1 did time) who got busted trying to smuggle ecstasy back via plane from Netherlands in the 90’s. Back then it was as easy as could be... He got away with it for years before he got caught.

I’d say FL has had the biggest scene change out of anywhere regarding MDMA. The 90’s sounds like it was one of the top places. Texas also has changed a lot but not as much as FL.

I think once domestic production really ramped back, those places hurt the most since a lot of labs were in the Southwest.


Also I’ll side with TripSitter in this one, PMK by the barrel is still likely used but just not as often as the glycidate due to storage and transport. In the 90’s I guess the Dutch moved from safrole to PMK which gave boom to the Mitsubishi press, according to mixmag at the time.

PMK from what I’ve read is actually more stable than people give it credit. I’ve heard it being stored for months/years at RT with little to no degradation.

Again though it’s a lot easier to smuggle a stable powder than a oily somewhat unstable liquid. And international regulations up until recently still had it legal in places like China.

Now with glycidate illegal too I expect to see a dip in quality (which we’re already seeing, but could also be Covid related) so if you get good product nows time to stock up. Who knows though maybe the next route they use will give more “magic” again too..

-GC
Interesting... I didn't know about the Dutch moving from Safrole to PMK in production during the Mitsubishi wave. Yeah..... Orlando was absolutely flooded. I could walk around my highschool and pick from 5-10 different dutch presses at a time. Almost every week I rolled(yes I was that dumb) was a different quality press. I only heard of 2 non MDMA/MDA presses in 4yrs of dropping. A 4 leaf clover press that was DXM and unfortunately a Mitsi PMA pill that killed 2 kids from my highschool. I never tested a pill but after those fake Mitsi's I stepped back from the scene and when I was offered molly years later it was methylone and mephedrone.
 
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