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What is wrong with following Christ’s teachings?

deficiT

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Indeed.

A Gnostic Christian will become a universalist, while Christians will become homophobes and misogynistic and discriminate without a just cause.

Strange how Gnostic Christians take the moral universalist high ground, while Christians continue to discriminate without a just cause.

Same bible, read differently and the right way as compared to how Christians read and become evil.

Regards
DL
I think that's a bit of a generalization. I don't know a whole lot about gnostic christians, but I've read a little bit of the nag hammadi scriptures. Interesting stuff and I'm sure there's more to it that I don't know.

I pretty much consider myself a Christian, and am the opposite of a homophobe or misogynist. Obviously I don't represent all Christians and there are definitely discriminatory people in the group. If you read the Bible with those feelings already within you, then sure you can use it as a justification for your homophobia. But anyone with any sense who reads it, should be able to get the correct interpretation.

People that use the bible as a justification for discrimination are simply pricks who don't understand the message.
 

Gnostic Bishop

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And if something is better than the New Testament then why is that so?

Not better, but it's best that Christians ignore.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

Regards
DL
 

Gnostic Bishop

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I think that's a bit of a generalization. I don't know a whole lot about gnostic christians, but I've read a little bit of the nag hammadi scriptures. Interesting stuff and I'm sure there's more to it that I don't know.

I pretty much consider myself a Christian, and am the opposite of a homophobe or misogynist. Obviously I don't represent all Christians and there are definitely discriminatory people in the group. If you read the Bible with those feelings already within you, then sure you can use it as a justification for your homophobia. But anyone with any sense who reads it, should be able to get the correct interpretation.

People that use the bible as a justification for discrimination are simply pricks who don't understand the message.

Why do you favor a genocidal and immoral Yahweh, who kills instead of curing those he feels are defective?

Who is more likely to kill instead of cure? Jesus/Yahweh or Satan?

Regards
DL
 

Gnostic Bishop

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If people have a sense of right and wrong then why did christ die for our sins..

Why can't people imediately choose right?

Because so called "bad" actions demonstrate their worth necesarily.
Especially given that Christians sing that Adam's sin, is a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

If we did not sin, to Christians, we would be derailing Yahweh's great plan.

Regards
DL
 

deficiT

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Why do you favor a genocidal and immoral Yahweh, who kills instead of curing those he feels are defective?

Who is more likely to kill instead of cure? Jesus/Yahweh or Satan?

Regards
DL
I don't favor a genocidal yahweh. I favor a loving God. Like you said, people interpret things differently. Faith for me is less about following the Torah or some old scripture, and more about believing in a power greater than myself that I can always rely on, that will ultimately lead me to a better place. Hard to explain to someone who doesn't have any faith.

And your second question is silly, Jesus literally went around healing people lol, Satan does nothing worthwhile.
 

Gnostic Bishop

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I think they teach good, traditional values that have stood the test of time but they tend to alienate people who don't believe and there is a lot of room for disagreement in how to interpret them.

You like that homophobia and misogyny and the adoration of a genocidal god, and think them good traditional values.

Really?

Say it isn't so, or I will give credence to your avatar name.

Regards
DL
 

Gnostic Bishop

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I don't favor a genocidal yahweh. I favor a loving God. Like you said, people interpret things differently. Faith for me is less about following the Torah or some old scripture, and more about believing in a power greater than myself that I can always rely on, that will ultimately lead me to a better place. Hard to explain to someone who doesn't have any faith.

And your second question is silly, Jesus literally went around healing people lol, Satan does nothing worthwhile.

So to you, his promised mass murder, Armageddon, --- is a healing thing, --- in spite of murdering the vast majority of us and keeping only a few.

As to Satan, she got us out of Eden and you sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to Yahweh's plan. Given that she kept Yahweh's plan on track, you should be recognizing Satan's worth as Yahweh's Loyal Opposition.

Thanks for your immoral views.

Regards
DL
 

Gormur

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We don't know much about Joseph, but here is some of what we do: His genealogy, such as it is, is in Matthew 1. He was a carpenter, of Davidic lineage and likely from a well-respected family, he was pious, probably significantly older than Mary. Some hold that he was a widower and had sons from a prior marriage, thus the reference to Jesus's brothers not suggesting that Mary eventually had children the normal way (others hold that these were cousins, not brothers, which is a possible reading of the text.) All traditional Christian interpretations hold that the marriage was never consummated. Joseph does not seem to be very well-off (hence the manger) but neither is he destitute, he seems able to move his family about (from Nazareth to Egypt to Galilee) without much difficulty, which would require pack animals, etc. and also he was making enough money to be taxed (if he was a pauper the Roman State would not have bothered.)

He might have had a workshop with a number of people working under him or he might have been a self-employed craftsman, it's not terribly clear. He seemed to be calm, reserved, and have a deep decency about him, as evidenced by his wanting to end things quietly with Mary, rather than humiliate her, before he understood the nature of her pregnancy. He doesn't appear much in the Gospels, however he was clearly involved in Jesus' life and considered his earthly father as later on during Jesus' ministry people who scoff at him mention his being the son of the carpenter. However not much is said about him, probably because the writers want to keep the focus on Jesus and Mary to emphasize the special status of both.

There are post-Biblical traditions about Joseph but the above is about what we have and can all agree on and does give a basic sketch of some of his qualities, and a good set of qualities they are.

The best OT passage implying a Divine messiah is probably Isaiah 9:6-7, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God. The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this." Some translate this in various tortured ways ("counsellor [of] the mighty God [who, i.e. God, is] the everlasting Father") but doing so is a big stretch.

Anyway, to break it down: particularly interesting of course is אל גבור, "mighty God" and אבי עד, "eternal Father."

גבור is applied as the adjective "mighty" throughout the OT both to men and to God. From אל derives the plural אלהים,‎ a more commonly used title for God in the OT. (Why is the title usually plural, but singular in this particular case? Is this a hint of the trinity? Or is reading that in a stretch?) Now, אל is occasionally used in curious ways to refer to divine power, to false idols, etc. but here it is in rather stark and plain terms: "the mighty God."

עד, "eternal, everlasting", if I am not mistaken is only used in reference to God in the OT. A particularly interesting verse is is Isaiah 57:15, "thus saith the High and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, who's name is Holy." In a similar vein, verse 7 as above, "the increase of his government shall have no end [אין־קץ] ... forth and evermore [ועד עולם]." Pedantically, the former phrase means that there is no point in time at which the power of the Messiah shall come to an end, while the latter specifically refers to a more theological concept of Eternity. The word עולם will be familiar to any observant Jew as it is in the preface of many of his prayers addressing God: "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the Universe, etc." "Universe" here is עולם. We have both a spatial and a temporal sort of all-encompassing vastness described here.

Bottom line, we have four very theological terms here applied to the Messiah.

There are a variety of oblique references in the OT which can be read as supporting a triune God, in addition to the plural אלהים and God using the first person plural when speaking of creation in the first chapter of Genesis (which according to Christian doctrine was accomplished through and with the pre-existing Son, second person of the trinity) but generally using the first person singular when speaking to Israel as God the Father. There are some verses which seem to be rather confusing but are somewhat less so if you see more than one person of the Trinity in them, but I am tired and going to leave it here for now. If you are interested I can pick up on this thread another time.
Different people have been called messiah in the Tanakh. You're talking about a Christian interpretation of text which is fine but it's not what I'm looking at
 

Gormur

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Thanks everybody for their contributions to this discussion. However, I just want to emphasise that the original topic is what is wrong with Jesus’s teachings - which does not necessarily relate to organised religion. Maybe one can follow His teachings in one’s personal life with no problem? However as @SKL has ably demonstrated there is a problem with knowing what Jesus’ teachings actually are without the institutional Church as a translator/mediator. This process begins with the fact that our first knowledge of what Jesus said are the Gospels, which are the product of the nascent institutional Church.

I guess where I wanted to go with this thread was to question whether what we know to be fairly unequivocally Jesus’s message are right for the modern world and how we live as individuals within it. You can pick any teachings: love they neighbour as thyself, turn the other check, do not cast the first stone, the meek shall inherit the earth, etc etc.. But taken together, are these really the principles upon which you’d construct a society or want to govern your own life?
My question would be, which teachings were Jesus'? EDIT: Ah okay. I think it's fine to follow a man's teachings if they're sound but it'd be disastrous to try and formulate a society based on any man's teachings if that makes sense. We have to learn for ourselves and shouldn't be forced into a belief system
 
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deficiT

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So to you, his promised mass murder, Armageddon, --- is a healing thing, --- in spite of murdering the vast majority of us and keeping only a few.

As to Satan, she got us out of Eden and you sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to Yahweh's plan. Given that she kept Yahweh's plan on track, you should be recognizing Satan's worth as Yahweh's Loyal Opposition.

Thanks for your immoral views.

Regards
DL
Have you seen the world lately? Humans are morally diseased and suffering/cruelty is rampant and uncontrollable. Armageddon +/or Resurrection in heaven would indeed be a healing thing for most. Whether the suffering of the world is the work of God, humanity, Satan, or some combination is irrelevant.

I'm not naive enough to believe that the suffering of the world is due to lack of religion or anything like that.

All I know is that the world would probably be a bit better if people actually "loved their neighbor" - which Jesus taught as the most important commandment, alongside loving God. Jesus's teachings are solid. Not a bad dude at all.
 

Gnostic Bishop

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We don't know much about Joseph,

We know he was cuckolded by Yahweh, who is a deadbeat dad who can only produce half breed chimera children.

As to his genealogy, who cares?

He was not the father and genealogy followed the father's blood line.

Regards
DL
 

Gnostic Bishop

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Then in that sense, there is absolutely nothing wrong with his teachings. More people should follow them. <3

I think people simply get mislead along the way by corrupt religious "leaders".
To follow Jesus means buying into substitutional punishment, and Armageddon's mass murdering, --- as good justice, which they are not.

To say more people should do an unethical thing is quite evil.

I know you did not mean it that way but Jesus is not preaching good morals.

The Gnostic Christian version of Jesus does not ask us to sin.

The savior Jesus does.

Regards
DL
 

Gnostic Bishop

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Have you seen the world lately?
Yes.

Statistically, we have never been better off as far as the markers for evil show.

Steven Pinker: The surprising decline in violence | TED Talk

In fact, evolutionists are hard pressed to show why we are so good to each other.

Open your eyes to reality. The lying preachers make better pay with the type of lies you preach here.

Do not be like them. Reads a bit of Pinker.

Regards
DL
 

Gnostic Bishop

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Humans are morally diseased
Only the Christians who adore a genocidal, homophobic and misogynous god are morally diseased.

Care to argue for Yahweh and genocide being good from a moral POV?

I did not think so.

Regards
DL
 

Gnostic Bishop

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Satan does nothing worthwhile.
??

Yahweh put her in Eden to start us off properly with, to you, sin.

Are you saying Yahweh screwed up, just because you cannot dither out her role?

Why do you think Yahweh put Satan in Eden if she did not have a role to play?

Regards
DL
 

Gnostic Bishop

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I favor a loving God.
Look again for the first time.

Yahweh is a genocidal prick.

Are you denying Noah's flood and the pending genocide called Armageddon?

As to faith. Faith without facts is for fools. Faith

Do you think Satan would be more likely to use genocide or Yahweh?

Regards
DL
 

Gnostic Bishop

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People that use the bible as a justification for discrimination are simply pricks who don't understand the message.
Yet the official line from Christianity is homophobic and misogynous.

I see a lot of hypocrisy on these issues where good people ignore Christian abuses.

To put ones tribalism/religion ahead of moral sense is immoral.

Regards
DL
 

Atelier3

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@gnosticbishop please familiarise yourself with where the debate is before coming in and dropping a dozen unproductive and repetitive posts into the thread.

This is a discussion about the New Testament and the philosophy expressed through the teachings of Jesus’s recorded therein, specifically in The Gospels and the Pauline Letters. The question is do they form a good philosophy for guiding life in the Modern World and if not, why not.

If you want to claim that Christianity is homophobic please provide a NEW TESTAMENT reference quoting the words of Jesus to that effect. We are not talking about the organised Church, only the philosophy.
 

Gnostic Bishop

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This is a discussion about the New Testament and the philosophy expressed through the teachings of Jesus’s recorded therein, specifically in The Gospels and the Pauline Letters.

What of the teachings that relate to the O.T.? Just ignore those? Put Jesus above Yahweh????

Break the first commandment and kill the Trinity concept?

Ok.

The question is do they form a good philosophy for guiding life in the Modern World and if not, why not.

No.

Given that Armageddon and genocide are the end product of the N.T., only an immoral person, modern or not, would seek guidance by a genocidal god.

Would you go to Mein Kamp for moral guidance?

Christians like St. Hitler. You might.

Regards
DL
 
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