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What is wrong with following Christ’s teachings?

Here's a great article on more or less this subject I read just recently:

Crisis Magazine
APRIL 1, 2021

The Threat of Christianity​

REGIS NICOLL
Christ

Some time back, I was engaged in an online forum with some religious skeptics. Under discussion were the usual: the existence of God, the divinity of Jesus, evidence for the resurrection, and so on. For the most part, the participants were civil and without the animus that has been far too typical of these exchanges.
After one of the discussions was gaveled, a person remarked on the intensity of the dialogue. It suggested something of real importance; maybe something of utmost importance. Just what, he couldn’t say.

I responded that it was the outrageous claims of a carpenter’s son. For a first century Jew, claiming equality with God and forgiving sins were blasphemies punishable by death. Even in our enlightened day, such behavior would be grounds for committal to a mental institution or dismissal as a megalomaniac or outright fraud. But with Jesus, there is the confounding issue of His teachings.

As C.S. Lewis once observed, even among critics, the teachings of Jesus reflect the highest standard of morality known to man. Because of their supreme quality, Jesus’ imperatives are best explained not as products of a deluded or duplicitous mind, but of an intellectually competent person who actually believed what He claimed to be true.

And there lies the rub.

If Jesus was right about His divinity, then man is not a morally autonomous happenstance; he’s a special creation, a being that will one day stand before his Creator. It is what Thomas Nagel, NYU law professor and self-described atheist, coined the “cosmic authority problem”:
It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God…I hope there is no God…I don’t want the universe to be like that. My guess is that this cosmic authority problem is not a rare condition and is responsible for…the overuse of evolutionary biology to explain everything about life, including everything about the human mind.
Note that Nagel’s disbelief is not grounded in a rational examination of how the world is but by the non-rational sensibility of how he feels the world should be. In this regard, Thomas Nagel is not alone.

Folks like Nagel take pride in being members of the “smart set” whose trust is in the omniscience of human reason. But press them ever so slightly and beneath the patina of intellectualism you will find the non-cognitive: feelings, sentiments, and personal preferences.

“Dave” (not his real name) is a case in point. In an online exchange, I was surprised that Dave shamelessly accepted features of naturalism that lacked validation, or even a means of validation, while rejecting theism for those very reasons. When this inconsistency was pointed out, Dave responded, quite unapologetically, that at least his belief system didn’t require him to go to church, worship, pay tithes, or obey a rigid set of rules. When push came to shove, it was personal sentiments, not rational merit, that decided the question of God for Dave.

Dave criticized the morality of the Bible for promoting things like slavery, racism, the subjugation of women, and condemning children to Hell who have never heard of Jesus (never mind some seriously flawed hermeneutics here). He went on to contrast biblical morality—as has Richard Dawkins and other noted skeptics—against the Golden Rule.

Without realizing it, Dave fell headlong into the naturalistic fallacy: in a world created by colliding particles and shaped by natural selection, there is no right or wrong, only existence. If everything is a product of matter in motion, the “Will to Power,” not the Golden Rule, is the only life principle. It’s the natural conclusion of Darwinism that the totalitarian visionaries of the last century pursued with a vengeance.

That’s not to deny that religion has been a source of violence. But the casualties caused by Christians over twenty centuries dissolve in the shadow of those caused, in just one century, by atheistic regimes. So, despite what religious skeptics insist, the real danger of religion is not that it promotes violence, but that it takes away hope. Let me explain.

In 1945, Abraham Maslow published his famed hierarchy of human needs. According to Maslow’s ranking, physiological, safety, and social needs were on the bottom rung, with self-actualization or, as it was more commonly referred to, “finding oneself,” at the top.
Despite the lack of evidence for Maslow’s theory, self-actualization became the Holy Grail, and “free expression” and “choice” the seductive marketing hooks for a navel-gazing public. It didn’t take long for Madison Avenue to pick up pop psychology and promise self-discovery to all who affirmed self, followed their instincts, and carried American Express.

But Jesus said that our deepest need is not in finding self, but in knowing God—by denying self, following Christ and carrying one’s cross. He went on to insist that salvation—whether from existential ennui or righteous judgment—is not attainable by human effort but only by a divine gift. What a blow to our personal autonomy! What an affront to our self-esteem!

For those convinced that happiness is found in the sacred quest of self-discovery, nothing could be more threatening. To those trusting in the perfectibility of man and his environment, Jesus is the supreme bogeyman.

We inhabit a planet scarred by poverty, disease, crime, pollution, and violence. If there is no God, these problems are left to man and his ingenuity to solve.

Over the last two hundred years, man has been phenomenally successful in harnessing nature through the application of materialistic science. This has led to unbridled confidence that man, through science, will one day overcome the health, social, and environmental obstacles to a utopian existence.

But as atheist Sam Harris warned in an essay titled “Science Must Destroy Religion,” “the maintenance of religious dogma always comes at the expense of science.” Harris’s warning is clear. If science is our savior, then anything that impedes it is a threat to our future hope.
For instance, Christian doctrines about the sanctity of human life are hindrances to the scientist who seeks cures through research on embryonic stem cells, the mentally incapacitated, the terminally ill, or prisoners. The same goes for the social researcher who believes that population control is essential for socio-economic health and the investigator who believes that the gnawing questions of our existence will be answered in the quest for extraterrestrial life.

To those whose ultimate hope is in the limitless potential of man through science, Christianity is a danger more menacing than the Black Plague or runaway global warming. Consequently, Harris frets that “Iron Age beliefs—about God, the soul, sin, free will, etc.—continue to impede medical research and distort public policy.”

To meet the threat, Harris urges the scientific community to blast “the hideous fantasies of a prior age with all the facts at their disposal.” Once religion and faith are vanquished by reason and science, Sam Harris envisions that:
the practice of raising our children to believe that they are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or Hindu [will] be broadly recognized as the ludicrous obscenity that it is. And only then will we stand a chance of healing the deepest and most dangerous fractures in our world.
Mr. Harris would be wise not to bet the farm on his hope. According to an Authority I trust, the Church will not only prevail over all who would rout her; she will advance…even against the gates of Hell.
 
It was probably mentioned in this thread but if not.

There is also the constant guilt many Christians deal with because they're constantly "missing the mark" which is inevitable when trying to live up to the 'perfect' being. Of course Jesus forgives you but sometimes that isn't enough for people.

Nietzsche wrote about this and its a common gripe among Atheists. (Dawkins, Hitchens, et al.)
 
Christ represents truth and freedom!

He should be recognized among a pantheon of pagan symbols.
 
Nietzsche was a chaotic poet..

He wrote about true will power.. empowering your plans in life.. Creating destiny.. in a ratio of truth and freedom..

Getting the correct symbol for propaganda is key to convincing others that you are the overman..

I was Nietsche, I would know!
 
It was probably mentioned in this thread but if not.

There is also the constant guilt many Christians deal with because they're constantly "missing the mark" which is inevitable when trying to live up to the 'perfect' being. Of course Jesus forgives you but sometimes that isn't enough for people.

Nietzsche wrote about this and its a common gripe among Atheists. (Dawkins, Hitchens, et al.)
True, though a disposition towards achieving excellence through transcendence of the physical self was considered a virtue in many pre-Christian cultures. Most notably the Greek and Roman ones - though the linkages between them and Christianity are well documented.

Christ represents truth and freedom!

He should be recognized among a pantheon of pagan symbols.

Nietzsche was a chaotic poet..

He wrote about true will power.. empowering your plans in life.. Creating destiny.. in a ratio of truth and freedom..

Getting the correct symbol for propaganda is key to convincing others that you are the overman..

I was Nietsche, I would know!

I was wondering when Nietzsche would be brought up. I think he’s the first and only Western critic of Christianity to thoroughly tackle Christianity on it’s own terms and precepts rather than criticising it tangentially through its institutional abuses.

For him, Chsritianity was the religion by which the weak and afraid sheep-like mass of people would apply their essential hypocritical morality of selflessness and charity to tearing down the truly powerful, self-aware, self-guided and always noble ‘blond beast’ (misunderstood as Aryan - but he saw the archetype in every culture, not just European culture).

Attacking the the different institutional churches was not the goal of this thread (it’s own many threads already). It’s about whether the precepts of Christianity should be accepted or as Neitzsche thought, critiqued. Is turning the other cheek an act of strength or weakness?
 
Yes. Unlike Jesus, I was looking for a fight earlier.

However, it’s still an interesting question I think.
Do you have the heart of a warrior or do you mean looking for trouble. Big difference imo.

Nothing wrong with having the attitude of a warrior in my eyes.
Wondering if Jezus was really beyond that. Turning the other cheek or hitting back hard.

My self still in that warrior faze, what would Jezus do?
 
As an 'insider' myself (was indoctrinated as a child to some degree; living in a country with a Christian history etc.), I had to shred it all to bits, leave it behind, go into buddhist philosophy/practice before I could consider the possibility that what this Jesus dude pointed to has actually some spiritual juice in it. But that doesn't seem to be the question here. It's about following and teachings, so we are talking about a 'mental operating system' again, right?


I think we have enough historical data to know, to what blindly following scriptures leads. Islam is the poster child right now. I'm convinced that no book can live up to the uniqueness of what's happening now, to what this moment requires. I had this view before I came across that, but he phrased it pointed:

I'm not keen on labels, but one could say I'm anti-ideology, which basically makes me anti-Christian because of that. I don't think we would lose anything if we, as a collective, would ditch Christianity as mainstream belief, on the contrary. I think monotheism is certainly among the most infantile, destructive and dangerous thinking system humankind has ever come up with! And there are plenty of other things/ways that facilitate building communities, helping each other out, doing good etc. that are based on common sense, and that are more inclusive.


Well then we are solely discussing ideas, and all the following, believing, teaching and ideological sacredness of this or that book are out the window, aren't they? And that's what egos can't stand, uncertainty, and what closed thinking systems falsely promise. For me, that's the key, and what makes the difference. Since there is, per definition, no discourse possible when people are trapped in ideology, I think mockery is surely not nice but in case of Christianity effective to some degree in this age. I certainly don't want this stuff to get institutionalized again, or more than it still is.

And when the conversation which we so gracefully allowed is over, do we start believing and following again? (Sorry for the cynicism, was more of a rhetoric means here.)

Actually discussing whether the eggs of the Easter bunny are yellow or green seems a bit silly, unless you truely believe of course. That appears to be what this subforum is mainly about, clashing beliefs, and why I stay mostly away from it, even though I'm somewhat drawn to philosophy and stuff. But that's ok, it is what it is.

Greetings 😇
Could a men. or woman stranded alone on a deserted island as a baby.

Be enlightend like Jezus without knowing about him or having a bible available. I think so. That is my objection against teaching's, institution's and Guru's.

Although I have been mislead by their teaching's. And later on confronted by their action's.

The song 'Halleluyah' comes to mind. God is all around, no need to surch in the sky or look under the ground.
 
I love Mckenna, but I disagree with him here. I don't think ideology is inherently dangerous. In fact I think ideology (political, economic, or spiritual) is incredibly useful as means to relate with each other and understand the world. But there is a difference between successfully incorporating an ideology to help better the world, and using ideology as sword to oppress and/or dominate people. I'd argue that most people subscribe to some ideology or another, even unconsciously. Such is the nature of belief systems. When it veers into thoughtless dogma is when it can be used as a justification for atrocity.

I'm what others might call a 'dirty commie' of sorts. But even if I subscribe to certain political philosophy, it doesn't mean I can't be critical of how my beliefs can and have been implemented.

When people stop questioning and testing their own beliefs is when you run into trouble. Christianity (and other religions) has certainly been used to justify terror and violence, but I don't think that it's practice is inherently bad or needs to be tossed out.
Ideology could lead to atrocity, but not necessary. Indoctrination surely does.

How you feel about the Rastafarian look upon this? That's what I am digging into myself atm.
 
Jesus's teachings and Christianity are not synonymous.

Christian doctrine could be summarized by the gospels and the gospels alone. The rest of the new testament is superfluous.

Not that I subscribe to such teachings or believe in such things, but Christianity would a better and more altruistic religion if its instruction book consisted only of the gospels.
Is a gospel a bit like chanting. Or do you feel they are different thing's?

Rastafarian's and Jewish use chanting's which are like mere pure harmonic sound's. They seem globally more or less the same.
 
People can't be judged on what they don't understand or agree with. God judges each person by their deeds and only He knows our hearts
This feel's a bit like people can't be judged for something they don't know.

I was raised as Atheist. But firmly feel there is something that is beyond word's that is out there. You could call it god, Jehovah or Jahweh.

Or Yod Hey Val Hey, roughly translated to english. It mean's 'I am who am'. In essence it all comes down to one's self.
 
"if you disregard the Old Testament that came before Christ, if you disregard the Qu'ran that continued the tradition after Christ"

I'm a follower of Genesis 1:0, of the God of All Things that exists before, after and throughout. I'm a follower of the One who is 100% of everything.

Imagine the Devil pooping at Jesus' doorstep, putting a newspaper over it, setting it on fire, ringing his bell and retreating into a bush to watch how Jesus, God the Son, in putting out the fire, stomps into his infernal shit over and over.
God the Father sees this undignified antic and descends a swarm of angry wasps upon the Devil who runs off shrieking.
The Holy Spirit, the One who is All Things, is ALL OF THAT, including the Devil, the doorbell, the prank and the shit.

You shall worship no other Gods.

Do not idolize a man, a golden bull, do not hold as your God anything Less than the TOTALITY OF EVERYTHING IN ALL ITS GUISES.

Is Jesus the devil's poop too? No - therefore not the One.
Is God the Father the Devil too? No - therefore not the One
Only the Holy Spirit, the One who is All Things, is the True God.

The real God is the God of LSD and Zyklon B. All the glory and all the doom. The Marvellous and the Detestable. The Highest Good and the Lowest Evil.

The totality of everything - IN COMPLETE PROPORTION.

Things are the way they are, 100% because of the One who is Everything in every aspect.

There is nothing outside of it and the Nothing itself is part of it.

That's God. That is the ONLY God. Any God which is less than that is an emission, not the Whole. Anything less than the totality of everything is not the Almighty.

If your understanding of God, of Allah, is anything LESS than THE ALMIGHTY, you need to study up on your religion.

The God that IS created all that IS out of HIMSELF.

If you ignore the Old Testament and you ignore Islam which continued the tradition Jesus is a part of, and you ignore mustard gas and fractional reserve banking.. you are not seeing the whole picture.

You'd be cherry picking.

And thats ok, but thats my problem with Christianity.

And it explains why most Christian political parties are rightwing conformist while Jesus was a leftie nonconformist who even got crucified by the powers that be.

Trump as the embodiment of Christian values, endorsed by your priest.

Churches of the one loving children covering for child abusers.

If Jesus was alive now he'd want to be crucified backwards so he could shit over the hypocritical institutions now maketing a perversion of all that he stood for, that he died for.

Love, compassion, helping those in need, reform for a better world for all.

If you want to be a Christian, follow Him and NO OTHER, and follow Him DIRECTLY, so no church to pervert his message.

Purify your faith and if you are thusly purified, testify of that faith so it helps others on their PERSONAL quest to Jesus.

(I'm pro-Jesus, pro-God, anti religious institutions because of their hypocricy)
 
If Jesus was alive now he'd want to be crucified backwards so he could shit over the hypocritical institutions now maketing a perversion of all that he stood for, that he died for.
MOhh, how sweet? 💟 One can tell you meant that..
 
Attacking the the different institutional churches was not the goal of this thread (it’s own many threads already). It’s about whether the precepts of Christianity should be accepted or as Neitzsche thought, critiqued.
Respectfully, isn't that a knot which cannot be untangled? Christianity is, from its earliest beginnings, institutional. Its precepts were decided by a church. To look at those precepts without the examining the institutions which created, perpetuated, modified and propagated them is to render them, in large part, devoid of context. Even those who profess to be anti-church yet christian are influenced primarily by church teachings - it may not be the current church teachings, or it may not be all of the church teachings, but all christian teachings came from a church.
Is turning the other cheek an act of strength or weakness?

Context matters here too. I think anyone who can answer this definitively, without context, could rightfully be described as pathologically inflexible. I say pathologically because it's impairing. There are situations when both sides of this scenario are the adaptive response.
 
Christianity, the Gospel according to people who let their Messiah wash their feet because they couldnt be arsed.
 
Respectfully, isn't that a knot which cannot be untangled? Christianity is, from its earliest beginnings, institutional. Its precepts were decided by a church. To look at those precepts without the examining the institutions which created, perpetuated, modified and propagated them is to render them, in large part, devoid of context. Even those who profess to be anti-church yet christian are influenced primarily by church teachings - it may not be the current church teachings, or it may not be all of the church teachings, but all christian teachings came from a church.
Very true. Christianity makes no sense without a church, in fact the Church. That is how the Gospels and other Scriptures and teachings were perpetuated over 2000 years including weeding out false teachings and false gospels. Singling out a supposedly "historical Jesus" doesn't work without the institution that has existed ever since. Starting your own church according to your own interpretation of the Bible doesn't work either and is denounced in that very Bible ("...hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter." II Thess. 2:15)

Interestingly Jesus and the writers of the NT expected that Christ would be controversial and piss people off. He is called "a sign that will be spoken against" (or "sign of contradiction," Luke 2:34) which is a concept in theology that says the Truth always invites opposition. Those who do evil "hate the light" (John 3:20) Jesus even says he brings "fire to the earth...not peace, but division" (Luke 12:49,51) and "not peace but a sword" (Matt 10:34) He knew His teachings would invite opposition and controversy.

C.S. Lewis I believe describes somewhere some of the psychology of this reaction to Christ: by being told there is a Redeemer, people are exposed to the idea that they do indeed need redemption, which is something they don't want to hear.
 
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If you ignore the Old Testament
If you ignore the OT then you're probably a Christian since that's what's routinely done by them. I mean nobody who's read the whole Bible can ignore the myriad of misquotes and revisions/rewritten texts in the NT of the OT. Ask a Christian where in the OT it talks about Jesus of Nazareth and you'll get different answers but none of their references make sense when you read the Hebrew or Aramaic text so I'm not sure where they get this. I guess it's faith

If I were a good monotheist I'd be putting my faith in the Creator and not in altered texts
 
If you ignore the OT then you're probably a Christian since that's what's routinely done by them. I mean nobody who's read the whole Bible can ignore the myriad of misquotes and revisions/rewritten texts in the NT of the OT. Ask a Christian where in the OT it talks about Jesus of Nazareth and you'll get different answers but none of them make sense when you read the Hebrew or Aramaic text
Judaism, at the time of Jesus, had many Messianic cults and splinter groups deriving from the ambiguity of Jewish religious scriptures and teaching regarding the Messiah. I don't think it is necessarily a flaw of religions that they are seemingly inconsistent, they stay alive and vital through the constant interpretation and reinterpretation of their scriptures in light of developments in the larger world. Ambiguity is a design feature, not a fault.

That's why religions or cultures that predict particular events to occur on a certain day and a certain time don't last long.

Whether scriptures are 'true' or not is a largely meaningless conversation. They are written (divinely inspired or not) to serve a social purpose around the cohesion, advancement, and protection of their believers as a community. The 'best' religions are those whose precepts remain plausible and useful to believers as historical forces both outside and inside of religion shape the world around them.

One of the reasons there were so many messianic figures around the time of Jesus was partly because of the dissonance between the the Jewish scriptures configuring the Jews as Chosen but the socio-political situation having them perpetually subjugated. A new covenant was required if they were have to have any chance of escaping their subjugation and a new covenant required a new revelation of some kind: hence the new testament.

Just because many Jews never accepted Jesus as the Messiah and denied his revelations and just because many early Roman Christians sought to downplay the Jewish roots of their new faith does not mean there was not strong historical continuity from Judaism into Christianity. It's a lot harder to make the case that there was continuity from early Christianity into Islam though.
 
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If you ignore the OT then you're probably a Christian since that's what's routinely done by them. I mean nobody who's read the whole Bible can ignore the myriad of misquotes and revisions/rewritten texts in the NT of the OT. Ask a Christian where in the OT it talks about Jesus of Nazareth and you'll get different answers but none of their references make sense when you read the Hebrew or Aramaic text so I'm not sure where they get this. I guess it's faith

If I were a good monotheist I'd be putting my faith in the Creator and not in altered texts
You are aware that the oldest Mss. we possess for the OT are in Greek, right? And that there was essentially no Christian Hebrew scholarship from Jerome until the Renaissance, leading to that whole line of inquiry being dominated by a certain other perspective? Who's rewriting who? I rather doubt that you have taken any Biblical languages to "read the Hebrew or Aramaic text," as if that could be done without historical context now anyway. Hence the need for an authoritative Church to pass down and interpret.
 
Many of them just want others to be as miserable as they are. To Christians that's the only way of life and finding out that it ain't real will shatter them, so why go around preaching about hating preachers when you could just believe what you believe?
 
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