Misc well studied safe downers?

[Mycophile]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14731058


http://www.bmj.com/content/352/bmj.i90




http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15762814

Ok so basically you are saying it's 100% PROVEN without a shadow of a doubt that if I keep taking Klonopin regularly I will get alzheimers or something like that??

I didn't feel like reading through all your links, but I NEED my Klonopin for bad social anxiety.

I really can't do without it.

I'm still not sure that anyone can say FOR SURE those problems will occur to me.

If they can, then I'm probably fucked because I really don't think I'll probably be able to live life without them.

MAYBE some day in the distant future it MIGHT be possible, but beyond that, I don't think so.

So is that really what you are saying??

That EVERYONE agrees it's a COMPLETE GIVEN that regular benzo users will get coginitive impairment and alzheimers??

Or do you think there's ANY possibility it might NOT happen to SOME people??

 

[Sobrietysucks]

Ok so basically you are saying it's 100% PROVEN without a shadow of a doubt that if I keep taking Klonopin regularly I will get alzheimers or something like that??

I didn't feel like reading through all your links, but I NEED my Klonopin for bad social anxiety.

I really can't do without it.

I'm still not sure that anyone can say FOR SURE those problems will occur to me.

If they can, then I'm probably fucked because I really don't think I'll probably be able to live life without them.

MAYBE some day in the distant future it MIGHT be possible, but beyond that, I don't think so.

So is that really what you are saying??

That EVERYONE agrees it's a COMPLETE GIVEN that regular benzo users will get coginitive impairment and alzheimers??

Or do you think there's ANY possibility it might NOT happen to SOME people??

Meh when I'm old and miserable Alzheimer'may atleast help me forget that im old... Could be a positive or negative depending on how u look at it. I'll take that lol

 

[Mycophile]

Meh when I'm old and miserable Alzheimer's will at least help me forget that im old... Could be a positive or negative depending on how u look at it. I'll take that lol

I'm honestly still not convinced that most or even half the people that use benzos long term get alzheimers.

How do we know those people wouldn't have gotten it anyway??

Correlation is not causation and I really can't live a normal life without Klonopin.

Would people suggest I stop using it and not be able to live my life normally??

I don't think that's the smart decision.

 

[Mycophile]

There were also these parts of Kleiner Keifer's studies which he DIDN'T bold:

"Such findings suggest that patients should be advised of potential cognitive effects when treated long term with benzodiazepines, although they should also be informed that the impact of such effects may be insignificant in the daily functioning of most patients."

"However, this study has several limitations, one being that it includes a relatively small number of studies. Further studies need to be conducted; ideally, well designed, controlled studies that thoroughly investigate certain areas of cognitive functioning and present data in such a way so as to be amenable to inclusion in a meta-analysis."

"The risk of dementia is slightly higher in people with minimal exposure to benzodiazepines but not with the highest level of exposure."

^^^^

Not sure if I understand what they meant by this last bolded comment but they make it sound like dementia is NOT as much a risk with the highest level of exposure, which probably isn't what they meant but I'm not sure.


And then the quote below makes it sound like benzos AREN'T that likely to cause brain defects:

"Neuroimaging studies have found transient changes in the brain after benzodiazepine administration but no brain abnormalities in patients treated long term with benzodiazepines."


I like Kleiner Keifer as a mod but it seems like he picked and chose the selected portions of his quotes to bold and didn't bold the parts which suggested long term benzo use might NOT lead to serious problems.



I also found this in one of the studies he cited:


"Higher benzodiazepine use was not associated with more rapid cognitive decline."

 

[sigmond]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26123874

CONCLUSION:After taking a prodromal phase into consideration, benzodiazepine use was not associated with an increased risk of developing AD or VaD.

deleted an article because it was already posted

Is there really a link between benzodiazepine use and the risk of dementia?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25691075

EXPERT OPINION:
Out of the ten studies retrieved, nine reported an increased risk of dementia in benzodiazepine users. The risk increased with cumulative dose and treatment duration and when long-acting molecules were used. Even if the causal nature of this association remains unproved, the reviewed material provides arguments for evoking a causal link. Further research would be necessary to elucidate the mechanism of this effect, if any, to evaluate the risk of exposure in younger population and the influence of risk factors such as depression. In any case, the body of evidence seems sufficient for avoiding prescriptions or renewals that are not fully justified and indiscriminate long-term use.

@mycophile as far as i can tell the results are inconclusive (we have gone over this before)

another (long) article: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0887617703000969

 

[Mycophile]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26123874


deleted an article because it was already posted

Is there really a link between benzodiazepine use and the risk of dementia?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25691075


@mycophile as far as i can tell the results are inconclusive (we have gone over this before)

another (long) article: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0887617703000969

Thanks.

That's basically what I thought, that people who are too confident on either end are jumping the gun.

I'm not trying to say there's no way there COULD be a link, but it seems like the people who think benzos DEFINITELY DO cause dementia are a lot more gung ho about it when we still don't really know yet.

All I know is, I need them and haven't seen many negative side effects other than decreased sleep quality, which though it sucks, is not nearly as bad as the downsides for me as NOT taking them unfortunately.

 

[kleinerkiffer]

as far as i can tell the results are inconclusive

Exactly.
Some people take like 10mg of diazepam a day for years without increasing their dosage and without any side effects like mental fog, bad memory etc., while others have to increase their dosage ever so often and experience serious side effects.

I think only time will tell, but imo the one study I posted claiming that benzo use and alzheimers don't correlate seems reasonable.

I mean, we don't know that much about benzos, like we know to which receptor they bind to in the brain, but that's about it.
I just finished reading a paper about benzo tolerance the other day and the results are inconclusive to say the least.
One interesting thing I read:

From the literature we reviewed, it appears that α2/α3 subtype selective compounds do not lead to tolerance or withdrawal symptoms.

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/aps/2012/416864/
and

In contrast, muscle relaxation and anxiety reduction after benzodiazepine administration was primarily ascribed to α2 (and possibly α3) subunit activation, whereas α5 subunit-containing GABAA receptors appear to be involved in learning and memory[/U]

so I guess if you find a benzo with low affinity for α5 you minimalize the risk of alzheimers etc.

 

[deruyityn]

I don't see the problem about something maybe happening when you're old. By then you're fucked anyway one way or the other.

It is like saving all your money up til your in your last days because you might need it one day versus spending it on things you do need it for in the present.

 

[kleinerkiffer]

^ it's not only alzheimers we're talking about, some people get horrible brain for and memory problems after just a few years of use

 

[Mycophile]

I don't see the problem about something maybe happening when you're old. By then you're fucked anyway one way or the other.

It is like saving all your money up til your in your last days because you might need it one day versus spending it on things you do need it for in the present.

What do you consider "old" though?

My parents are 68 and 67 and in excellent shape and have excellent memory and don't seem "old" at all.

Are you talking like 80 years old??

My grandmother is 96 and still alive and still has her memory and can move around pretty well.

The idea that you are "fucked when you are old" is probably a thought for the young only.

IF you actually REACH that age you may not feel so "fucked" if you actually managed to take care of your body and brain.

I bet a lot of "old" people don't feel fucked and are glad they didn't mess themselves up at a young age if they took care of themselves.


That being said...I need my Klonopin right now and I haven't ever had serious adverse side effects and don't think the evidence is conclusive enough to stop something that helps me so much.

But I think it's VERY faulty thinking to live in the present entirely and not remember that someday you may be old and still want to have a working brain and body because it IS possible.

 

[Sobrietysucks]

I actually read a diary type of thread on benzo buddies forum about a woman in her 70's. She was tapering off benzos after taking them for ridiculous long time. Her memory seemed fine. Or at least competent enough to talk about her past and experiences. That thread is still open and she's still tapering after a year. Thats just one person though.