• Current Events, Politics
    & Science

    Welcome Guest
    Please read before posting:
    Forum Guidelines Bluelight Rules
  • CEPS Moderators: cduggles | JessFR | tathra
  • Bluelight HOT THREADS
  • Let's Welcome Our NEW MEMBERS!

Wealth Distribution: For The Many Or The Few?

Captain.Heroin

Sr. Moderator: H&R, Words
Staff member
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
83,759
Location
Fighting the HOLY WAR against FRANCE FREEDOM FRIES
I don't care because I'm not part of that problem, but I am part of THE (overpopulation) problem.

Maybe you can use that to justify any crazy thing you want to do in life because someone else may or may not have had something you wanted or didn't want them to have (the latter seems increasingly petty as I consider it).

I'll just keep moving forward because I believe in wealth concentration even if it doesn't behoove me to.
 

Xorkoth

Administrator: PD, TR, TDS, P&S
Staff member
Joined
Feb 8, 2006
Messages
42,791
Location
In the mountains
Why do you believe in wealth concentration? I mean in the extreme form it exists in now? Personally I'm fine with different people having more money than others based on doing something more valuable to society than someone else. But for a few to control the majority of everything at the expense of workers who work hard yet still live in poverty seems intensely morally wrong and also totally unnecessary and preventable.
 

Captain.Heroin

Sr. Moderator: H&R, Words
Staff member
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
83,759
Location
Fighting the HOLY WAR against FRANCE FREEDOM FRIES
It would be a lengthy tirade to get into and quite frankly it's just something I believe in. Other people shouldn't have to be dragged down to my level of poverty. Poverty exists as a way to encourage others to do more to contribute to society through hard work. The alternative is "benefits", UBI, etc. Which I'm not opposed to either. There's just a reason the profit motive exists.
 

Captain.Heroin

Sr. Moderator: H&R, Words
Staff member
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
83,759
Location
Fighting the HOLY WAR against FRANCE FREEDOM FRIES
I'm not a perfect worker bee and could do more. Better. I know it and I'm a fuck up anyways. I don't try to excuse my poor behavior through my ideology though.

It's odd because you seem to have a better work ethic than me and value it a hell of a lot less than I do. Perhaps it's one of those grass-is-greener-on-the-other-side things.

P.S. before you even quoted me I knew those specific words were going to be a bee under your bonnet and that you'd directly respond to it. ?
 

Captain.Heroin

Sr. Moderator: H&R, Words
Staff member
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
83,759
Location
Fighting the HOLY WAR against FRANCE FREEDOM FRIES
What about my statement is demonstrably false? I could work more. I assure you of that. Is your contention that I shouldn't have to work or I don't really believe I should work more? Because I should. No one should live the kind of life I am, terribly pointless and aimless. I'm confused. I'm sure the average human being who has fucked up their lives won't openly admit it to you and blame themselves for their shortcomings. Individuals abandon responsibility and leap into blaming the government 100x more than necessary. But anyways, what is your contention? I should be paid more, or I just want more money? I could argue against both points. What's the contention?
 

Xorkoth

Administrator: PD, TR, TDS, P&S
Staff member
Joined
Feb 8, 2006
Messages
42,791
Location
In the mountains
Just because some people are poor because they don't work does NOT mean that it is the only reason to be poor. There are millions and millions of people who work really fucking hard, 2, 3 jobs. Jobs doing dangerous shit like coal mining, doing harder work than probably anyone on this forum. And yet because minimum wage is so low, people are getting paid well below a living wage, and are poor, despite doing everything they can. Not everyone can fill the higher-paying, professional jobs. Some people have to fill gas station clerk, or grocery bagger, or coal miner, or McDonald's employee. A LOT of people do. To suggest that it's their fault they're poor when they're putting in 40 or even well more hours a week, fulfilling a role in society that is part of the machinery of it working, is absurd. People who work at something and fulfill their role should be paid a living wage. We should not have the full-time working poor as a thing in the wealthiest nation in the world. It's fucked up.

I find the conservative argument is always "well work harder and you can become rich". It's completely out of touch with reality and it completely glazes over some realities which I have just mentioned. You can't punish people for filling jobs that are needed, it's morally wrong and exploitative.

CH said:
There's just a reason the profit motive exists.
I have no problem with profit as a motivator in itself. It is a good thing for innovation, it creates competition which helps motivate people and light a fire under them. But how do you respond to the fact that there are full-time working poor? How do you justify that? How is it beneficial to anyone but a few select individuals to allow people to slowly accumulate more and more of the total wealth, to the direct detriment of other people who did nothing to deserve it and are still trying their best to contribute to society and survive. What is so bad about laws that helped to prohibit that sort of predatory, destructive behavior? We pretty much open encourage it. It's unhealthy for our society, if they succeed in creating a wage slave labor force, then the country just becomes a place for obscenely wealthy sociopaths to feed off of a population of people until they suck it dry and it collapses.

To be clear, I have no problem whatsoever with someone, say, writing a best-selling novel and becoming rich, or starting a tech company or whatever, or making it in music or other arts and becoming rich by creating something. What I have a problem is the deranged motherfuckers who exploit the people making their wealth possible, who infiltrate the government and change the laws to better benefit them and screw everyone else. It's insane for us to allow this kind of system because it is unjust.

So yeah it's a hell of a lot more of a complex issue than "well, they should work harder, it's their fault"
 
Last edited:

Captain.Heroin

Sr. Moderator: H&R, Words
Staff member
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
83,759
Location
Fighting the HOLY WAR against FRANCE FREEDOM FRIES
phrased a different way, "people are poor because they don't work hard", are you fucking kidding me? that's completely false on its face
I can see it rephrased that way is bad, but that is not what I said at all, though.
 

Captain.Heroin

Sr. Moderator: H&R, Words
Staff member
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
83,759
Location
Fighting the HOLY WAR against FRANCE FREEDOM FRIES
"well work harder and you can become rich".
Also not entirely what I said nor meant.

Part of what I was getting at is that I could have made better spending choices, pursued education harder, not do stupid shit like drugs, and probably ended up with a better job, especially if I was doing full-time work, [I did none of those things] would be able to afford a decent life in the US. Whether you define this as having your own home or having your own family, or both, I don't really fucking care. I'll define it as the former because that's the only one of the three trite options I listed that I'd ever really "want" and then again, I don't think it's coming my way anyways.

We should not have the full-time working poor as a thing in the wealthiest nation in the world. It's fucked up.
I know right? I want to go back to being a full-time not-working poor person. Those were the days.

[intentionally ironic not trying to be overly sarcastic] ☠

I'd rather have a job than not have one at the rate I'm going and I'm going to be poor either way, and I think that's a reality that is lost on others in general and not necessarily any person here in general.
 

Xorkoth

Administrator: PD, TR, TDS, P&S
Staff member
Joined
Feb 8, 2006
Messages
42,791
Location
In the mountains
I get that man, I'm just saying, that's what you've identified as the reason you're struggling personally. You had the opportunity to grow up in a way where you considered college an option. You had the option to spend extra money wisely. There are a whole lot of people who have done everything they reasonably could be expected to do. College is not for everyone. It's certainly far from affordable for a lot of people. A lot of families don't even raise their kids with any sort of expectation that they'll go to college. Graduating high school is an accomplishment. Those people could decide to do a trade or something and make a decent living, but some of them can't, or don't think they can, or just can only find minimum wage work. They didn't have opportunities for better built into their lives. Also ex-cons who get out are basically shunned from any job with reasonable pay. Minimum wage is far too low, you can't raise a family on that or in some places even support yourself. It creates a situation where people rely on government assistance but they shouldn't have to. You can't blame those people for that, yet conservatives will often do just that.

By the way CH I'm not trying to say this all applies to you, I sort of broadened my point. Personally I had opportunities and made some good choices education-wise and now I can support myself pretty comfortably, and I'm lucky because I know a lot of people didn't get dealt that hand. And yeah I know SOME people from every background make it, but again, it takes everyone to make society work. We can't all be wealthy.

But I DO think we could all be at least comfortable and able to adequately feed our families if we do our part. We could do it, if we didn't allow the extreme concentration of wealth that we currently do. And it would also help a lot if we spent the tax dollars spent by all of us on stuff that serves the society as a whole rather than just the elite.
 

Captain.Heroin

Sr. Moderator: H&R, Words
Staff member
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
83,759
Location
Fighting the HOLY WAR against FRANCE FREEDOM FRIES
There are a whole lot of people who have done everything they reasonably could be expected to do.
So is your beef with the way things are, or that the way things are cannot be changed?

Your ability to change things isn't likely going to be superior to the world's efforts and everyone is already trying very hard (something I think we all agree on). Some things just aren't going to change, and rational-minded policies are going to prove more effective (cut to: not blowing up the debt over short term goals..., public welfare programs that work and don't cost $20 to $40 trillion dollars, and so on...)

I will argue that the minimum wage isn't too low. The value of the US$ is not great enough. And even that might be overstating things considering people do get by just fine, somehow. The idea we're all living one paycheck away from calamity is a joke to me. I've met people who ARE NOT IN NEED AND ENGINEER THEIR OWN FINANCIAL DEMISE EACH MONTH, and I explain this to the people *ACTUALLY* living paycheck to paycheck, and THEY get it. When I list off the other-worldly possessions people can amass and still imagine themselves to be "poor" they will laugh with me on it. Then there's the actual Trump-Supporters, the 1%, met some too [No comment; you all would vilify such people even if I do not despite my comparative poverty]...

They didn't have opportunities for better built into their lives.
Not everyone breaks the mold. Before "better" there was just simple human life, before humans had clothes or farms... I don't want to go back. I like "better", even if it is literally worse. [These last words are very telling about the nature of how far we are into the progression of the technological singularity...]

get dealt that hand.
Implies determinism. With the advent of feminism virtually every woman can marry up a societal class and in 1 generation move her family on up. We don't live in a caste system where people are literally barred from social progression. LINK YUGE .JPG OF MELANIA TRUMP. Next someone will "boo hoo" me the woes of men who couldn't get ahead. Well, you can marry up too as a man. Some men manage that. I don't care. You have something to offer the world and no one's just going to hand it to you on a silver platter (this lesson has been brainwashed into me a thousand times over).

There comes a point, or at least came a point, in my life, in these last five years, where I went from being a user to a provider in my last relationship. It's nice not to be the leech for once. I can only imagine what a shithead I've been to so many people over the years. No regrets of course, but I am making different decisions with my life. [Or it just appears I am making decisions when I am just along for a very long, drawn out depressing show...]

We can't all be wealthy.
YES WE CAN all be wealthy! Do the math. If very few people existed on earth THERE WOULD BE MORE THAN ENOUGH TO GO AROUND AND WE ALL KNOW IT. It is a simple math problem, after all...And if we all *cannot* be wealthy, well, wouldn't that paint me correct when I say things like "There IS NOT enough to go around..." in explaining why we cannot equalize wealth or raise minimum wage further without serious economic implications (stock market decline, job decline, etc.)? Please please please think this one out, very important.
I'd like to think we all can be wealthy and the #1 thing in the way is severe human overpopulation. I might be wrong.
 

Xorkoth

Administrator: PD, TR, TDS, P&S
Staff member
Joined
Feb 8, 2006
Messages
42,791
Location
In the mountains
Okay so if the minimum wage is correct then inflation needed to happen at the same rate. The minimum wage used to be correct in the 60s, 70s, even 80s I think. Reagan started a trend of transferring more and more influence and resources to corporations and that trend has been continued and worsened over time. The point is that something is unbalanced and unfair and it's not the fault of the people making minimum wage. What the fuck are they gonna do about the value of the US dollar? Some people DO live one paycheck from calamity if they don't have anything to fall back on, especially if they have a family. We have so much wealth in this country, the correct thing to do is attempt to use it to allow the citizens to have a higher quality of life, to at least not be forced to feed their kids on McDonald's because it's all they can afford after rent, daycare for single parents, rent and bills. And forget about doctor visits, the only way they're doing that is when it's gotten really bad, but it could have been prevented and been so much better for them and society to not create even more personal debt. Unfortunately, those in power benefit from people remaining in debt.

I guess what I'm saying is that I have beef with the way things currently are, and have been developing for a long time. But I DO think we can do something about it, if we get people in power who aren't self-serving corporate shills and heads of organizations that benefit off of the poverty of their employees. Not sure how that can happen, I don't side with tathra that we need to have a violent revolution and kill all the people who are wealthy. I don't know what I can do, personally. But I still think what's happening is wrong and that blaming poverty on the poor, not on specific individuals but on the entire concept as a whole, is fallacious and only helps those who are pillaging this country. Poverty is a huge problem but it is a complex issue and there is an attempt to keep widening that division.
 

Captain.Heroin

Sr. Moderator: H&R, Words
Staff member
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
83,759
Location
Fighting the HOLY WAR against FRANCE FREEDOM FRIES
Well I didn't say the minimum wage was "correct". It's too vague to just say it is correct. The federal? My state's? What it's projected to go to a few years? Is that too far (YES)? I don't know. I can't imagine some jobs paying that high because it's so simple, and by pushing it up so high you know other jobs cannot pay much more than that figure.

And then there's cushioned jobs, which you have to pass a piss test to work and have a shining resume, or you're in the trenches with the rest of society.

Easy jobs shouldn't pay too much and then there's a happy in-between point for people. Get rid of that, and 10% unemployment comes back. And that was during Obama's reign of the ACA splitting most people's 40 hour work weeks down to 28 and they then got another 12 hour part-time to fill the void, and look at all the OT $ that isn't there in the checks now... yeah. There's shit to pay one way or the other.

So the question is do I think the minimum wage is fair? I think I've stated it should be eliminated all together a few times. I'll stick with that so as to not be a flip-flopper (trump.jpg). But I will say that if there was a number "IT SHOULD BE"... that number is probably closer to $10 USD per hour. $9 to $11? Not $16, $20, or more. You will run into all sorts of problems at that level the current purchasing power of the US dollar.

If you want to push it that high ($16, $18, $20+ USD/hour), you'll have to do UBI and mechanization of all "simple jobs" will be in the works. That's not a reality any human being is seriously pushing for right now. SORRY should correct myself "Human being politician in office". I'm sure some people here would love these lofty ideas.
 

Captain.Heroin

Sr. Moderator: H&R, Words
Staff member
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
83,759
Location
Fighting the HOLY WAR against FRANCE FREEDOM FRIES
Thanks, Pete.

The Aggivacchagotta Sutta records a conversation between the Buddha and an individual named Vaccha that further elaborates on this. In it Vaccha asks the Buddha to confirm one of the following, with respect to the existence of the Buddha after death:

After death a Buddha reappears somewhere else
After death a Buddha does not reappear
After death a Buddha both does and does not reappear
After death a Buddha neither does nor does not reappear
To all four questions, the Buddha answers that the terms 'appear', 'not appear', 'does and does not reappear' and 'neither does nor does not reappear' do not apply. When Vaccha expresses puzzlement, the Buddha asks Vaccha a counter question to the effect of: if a fire were to go out and someone were to ask you whether the fire went north, south east or west how would you reply? Vaccha replies that the question does not apply and that a fire gone out can only be classified as 'out'.

Thanissaro Bikkhu elaborates on the classification problem around the words 'reappear' etc. with respect to the Buddha and Nirvana by stating that a "person who has attained the goal [Nirvana] is thus indescribable because [they have] abandoned all things by which [they] could be described". The Suttas themselves describe the liberated mind as 'untraceable' or as 'consciousness without feature', making no distinction between the mind of a liberated being that is alive and the mind of one that is no longer alive.
Left you guys with this. Have fun.
 

Xorkoth

Administrator: PD, TR, TDS, P&S
Staff member
Joined
Feb 8, 2006
Messages
42,791
Location
In the mountains
I respect your opinions CH, I just understand the idea that you think minimum wage should be entirely abolished. Who would that help but the people employing people? That's the oath to creating a wage slave class. Imagine the only place you can get a job is in McDonald's and now you're making so little money it's hopeless. Eben now companies like Walmart actually encourage their employees to go on welfare to be able to support themselves. I think welfare is an important part of a strong, just society, but for those people who, say, got injured and have to not work for a year, so they can still pay their bills. But it's bullshit for Walmart to pass off part of the cost of paying their employees to the state, and ultimately the taxpayer. It's just wrong, when they (who make huge profits) could afford to not put that burden on us. Don't you think that's wrong?
 
Top