WARNING! Intellectual Content: Read at Your Own Risk

"I've even been admonished for being an administrator and failing to "set an example."
Well, that I can understand...
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Jay
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"The youth of america, blissed out on E and ready to fuck!"
"Do you have stairs in your house? please go by the stairs we must protect you by pushing you down the stairs.. we are here..to... protect you"
"Roads, where we're going we don't need any roads."
"fuck morals, it's all about getting off"
 
1.) Fox and others know this, but there are other posts on this site dealing with the likely inevitability of "clique" formation.
2.) For those who truly hate cliques, the other major forums on this site are free from them (Ecstasy Discussion, O.D., Psych.D., S&PP, et al.) Just be flexible and "shop" around.
3.) For those who take supposed selectivity/exclusivity seriously, really, try not to. Though some of the BLs on here have met before, and inhabit some common space, the vast majority have not, and will never meet or know each other personally. Don't mean to sound insensitive, but most of these people are far removed from our everyday lives; therefore, their opinions and favoritism are probably irrelevant, and should have no lasting effect on the seemingly-snubbed. Sometimes, anonymity can even be a good thing; once you're known, people might start putting expectations on you, fit you into a "box", and hence: your new definition, the totality of your "BL-ness" as seen by others. Stick with it, and you'll do well; drop it, and things could get ugly. Just like in real life. Pray don't take me for a cynic, though.
Your lives are greater than this; don't get so caught up in BL and its vagaries that you begin to think that it's the world. Just say to yourself, over and over, "It's just a bulletin board..."
 
Yes, this SITE was set up to provide information. The social, forum, however was not. In fact... it's against social forum rules to even DISCUSS drugs, so perhaps I'm missing your point here. If people were assraping threads in say the New to XTC forum, yeah, I'd have beef with it too. But in social? As far as I'm aware of, it's a place where people can goof off, be silly, and enjoy themselves.
^^^^I couldn't have said it better.
I stayed for the people, the people I met and connected with. If I didn't have the level of interaction on a daily basis with the people on this board I would have lost contact with many good and valuable friends.
With the points you have made Gmni13 I think that the post by post conversations and assraping have limited themselves to one thread a day. Also a lot more people have come into chat for the purpose of goofing off and meeting the people that post on here.
3.) For those who take supposed selectivity/exclusivity seriously, really, try not to. Though some of the BLs on here have met before, and inhabit some common space, the vast majority have not, and will never meet or know each other personally. Don't mean to sound insensitive, but most of these people are far removed from our everyday lives; therefore, their opinions and favoritism are probably irrelevant, and should have no lasting effect on the seemingly-snubbed. Sometimes, anonymity can even be a good thing; once you're known, people might start putting expectations on you, fit you into a "box", and hence: your new definition, the totality of your "BL-ness" as seen by others. Stick with it, and you'll do well; drop it, and things could get ugly. Just like in real life. Pray don't take me for a cynic, though.
^^ very good point
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"It is not our differences that divide us. It is our inability to accept and tolerate those differences."
**~Offical Intern of the Soulfly Broadcasting System~**
Friendship
Unity
Caring
Kindness
 
Several points...I'll try to make these in order.
First off, a little clarification on some of the quotes cited by Gmni13 above...they stem from the original "Bluelight cliques" post made a few weeks ago. My original post was not specifically a response to this issue per se, but a general observation evolved from some of the points brought up in this debate.
However, since some of those points have been rehashed, let me address them, since I chose not to do so when the points were originally made.
MysteryGuest said:
People forget this is an IBB, not e-mail, so it undermines the social element of Social, turning it instead into public showing off of private conversations.
I never quite got the connection as to HOW the "social element of Social" is undermined by any particular type of post that is found in the forum. What does that even mean? I think an argument could be made that almost any type of post in Social unfavorably impacts the 'environment' of Social... of what value is another listing of where people had sex for the first time? Or a discussion of how much someone hates or loves a particular TV show? Or how much someone hates having something in their eye?
Because of its wide audience, it is a sure bet that any thread in Social is only going to appeal to a limited, perhaps fractional, portion of its users...does that make any one type of thread inferior to any other?
Skydancer said (I expand upon the excerpt G13 made above):
In my opinion, by the "anything goes" idea, Social is turning into a very uniform mass of non-discussion, aimed at a selected group of people. This does not mean that Social is unwanted; it is important to some, and there is always the paradigm "There is a demand and it can be satisfied, so why not?"
"Why not?" is the position I advocate, and furthermore, in regards to the Social forum in particular, I ask this question: when has Social EVER been anything other than a "uniform mass of non-discussion"?
Social was created to get rid of the garbage hampering discussion in the other, more focused forums of Bluelight. As with any junkpile, there are going to be treasures, but on the whole its just junk.
Here's a post by Skydancer that was NOT quoted by G13 above:
I have to agree with what Spencer said (although that was formulated in Spencer-style): reading Social is not required. There are lots of people who post almost exclusively in other forums. Most other forums feel like a whole other world, compared to this forum. Most forums have bloomed in the past year and have almost without exception gained critical mass. I find most of these forums highly rewarding. For me, those forums are the best justification for giving so much of my time to Bluelight.
I could not agree more, and these forums are where I place the bulk of my efforts on the site as well...and to the further development of more forums like them as Bluelight grows and develops further.
As Skydancer said above, reading Social is not required. If you gain and grow and learn from using this forum, more power to you. That's wonderful!
If you do not gain and grow and learn, is it not productive to do something else with your time and not grouse about how others DO gain and grow and learn from it?
 
Yes, this SITE was set up to provide information. The social, forum, however was not. In fact... it's against social forum rules to even DISCUSS drugs, so perhaps I'm missing your point here.
You're right. Social is not meant for the discussion of drugs. However, the greater majority of people frequenting this board are not visiting New to XTC only. Just as I did, I'm sure they are lurking around "feeling out" the crowd. I take great pride in being a part of this board as I should hope you do too. Part of the pride is that this board is accomplishing something it was intended to do—help. It's not easy, being an insider, to see the damage we cause. And I'm guilty of it myself. Being on the inside joke, you can't see how some take offense. You can't see how some view what's being said as degrading. Sure we can easily say, "Fuck those that don't understand. It's only a joke." I'm trying not to be selfish.
As far as I'm aware of, it's a place where people can goof off, be silly, and enjoy themselves
If this wasn't the case, I wouldn't still be here. We preach moderation with drug use, how about moderation in responsibility? There are questions people are asking--other than drug-related. There is advice being sought--other than drug-related.
As far as "There is no "forcing" about it," you may fail to see that it is often not intentional on the perpetrator's part. When a particular thread holds meaning to someone they are not about to try and compete with a thread that was initiated with one topic and has gone astray into private conversation.
As I've said before...it's all about personal restraint and personal enforcement. You cannot eliminate it. You can only hope to contain it
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~Erik
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Wake your mind up. Clear your eyes up. Move and rise up before your times up. Clock is tickin'. You're caught slippin'. Stop to realize. Look and listen.
 
As with any junkpile, there are going to be treasures, but on the whole its just junk.
point duly noted.
~Erik
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Wake your mind up. Clear your eyes up. Move and rise up before your times up. Clock is tickin'. You're caught slippin'. Stop to realize. Look and listen.
 
As I've said before...it's all about personal restraint and personal enforcement. You cannot eliminate it. You can only hope to contain it .
Which is why thoughtful discussions like this are useful...much more useful than the negative way this discussion has been undertaken in other venues in the forum.
As I said at the beginning of this thread, I think there is a huge value in getting anyone to examine their motivations for WHY they do the things they do...myself included.
The high caliber of this discussion is perfect rationale for why I even undertook it in the first place...and shows me I did NOT waste thirty minutes of my life constructing the original post.
 
If you do not gain and grow and learn, is it not productive to do something else with your time and not grouse about how others DO gain and grow and learn from it?
Most of us outside the loop are just trying to have the same advantage you had when you came to the board Fox. You jumped in and just started to add your personality to the mix and you were excepted.
Today, its all about who you have met on the outside........well some of us dont meet others on the outside or dont have the oportuninty.....so does that mean it is right to exclude those that have not had that oportunity??
I realy am not sure what side I take here since I see both.....people who are apart of the inner group have a valid point. They have taken the time to facilitate and culture relationships with BL's.....So they should be privy(sp) to the inside joke, BUT does that mean its ok for them to form in mass and squash the single BL?? no it does not give them that right. Yet that right has been executed in numerous posts with the support of the inner group. Does that give the individual the same chance you had when you first came to BL????
Just thought I was quiet long enough
Ru
 
Well said, Fox.
gmni: As I am still trying to get to the root of what it IS that is so offensive... let me say the following:
We preach moderation with drug use, how about moderation in responsibility? There are questions people are asking--other than drug-related. There is advice being sought--other than drug-related.
And those questions are being answered. By me? Maybe not. But I take offense to the idea that I am *required* by a sense of responsibility to answer any post other than those that I choose to.
It's not easy, being an insider, to see the damage we cause. And I'm guilty of it myself. Being on the inside joke, you can't see how some take offense.
Damage? Please do expand on this, as I'm not quite sure how people would be offended. What exactly is it that is offended... and WHO is BEING offended? You say you are on the inside as well... so are people coming to YOU and saying "hey this bothers me" or are you just assuming that they are?
This is what I want to know:
Who makes the rules? Who decides what is acceptable behaviour and what is not? Who decides what should be posted and what shouldn't be? You say there is a responsibiity to be had here, and I want to know for what. I do not post here for anyone but myself. Yes, that's right, I'm a selfish bitch perhaps, but I post here because it makes ME happy.
The bottom line? It's all about choice. You don't like a thread or the turn it's taken? By all means... DON'T read/post to it! Frankly, we are not here to cator to anyone elses wants and needs. No one is forced to come here, to read threads, to respond to them, etc. We are here because we WANT to be. There are a GREAT many threads that I read and don't understand or don't feel the need to respond to. Does that make me feel left out? No, of course not - I pick and choose the threads that I respond to, as does everyone else, whether they realize it or not.
ruru:
BUT does that mean its ok for them to form in mass and squash the single BL?? no it does not give them that right.
Please, explain to me just how "they" form in mass and "squash" anything? I am serious here, I really don't understand. Yes, I respond to my friends posts. Yes, I respond to posts from people who I don't know... in essence, I respond to those threads that appeal to me. As do you and everyone else on this board. It makes sense that posts from my friends are going to be appealing... doesn't it? Should I instead, NOT respond because it might upset other people? That is EQUALLY unfair, is it not?
 
Flower your missing my point.........
We all come to BL for a sense of belonging. You came here for info, as did I, we stayed becuase we found a sense of belonging that you could not find in the 'Real' world. Well that sense of belonging, for me at least and I can sense it from others that have posted to this thead, has been lost. BL Social has become the real world. It has become what most of us despise in the real world. Its now who you know that makes a difference, not who you are!!
I know thats why I was turned on by BL in the first place, it did not matter who anyone knew they took you for who you were when you presented yourself. That does not hold tru for social anymore.
I am not here to change social. Just trying to make a valid point as to why many feathers are ruffled on this. Cyberspace is where everyone has a fairly level playing ground, at least more level than the real world. The state of social at the moment is by far level.
Ru
 
RuRu said:
Most of us outside the loop are just trying to have the same advantage you had when you came to the board Fox. You jumped in and just started to add your personality to the mix and you were excepted.
If anything, Bluelighters today have a much greater chance of becoming involved than either of us did at the time we joined Bluelight back in 1999. There are more Bluelighters...more forums...more meetups...more ways to tailor your involvement in Bluelight to be exactly WHAT YOU WANT from it.
There are a significant number of Bluelighters today that have never used any drugs, never been to a rave, and have never met another Bluelighter...and yet are making productive contributions to the Bluelight community and are reaping the rewards of their participation. Was that the case in the early days?
well some of us dont meet others on the outside or dont have the oportuninty.....so does that mean it is right to exclude those that have not had that oportunity??
Exclude them how? By referring to events or things that occurred they are unaware of because they happened to not be at a certain event...or often chose not to be?
It seems to me often 'exclusion' is a perception chosen by the 'excluded' individual, rather than by any action taken by anyone.
BL Social has become the real world. It has become what most of us despise in the real world. Its now who you know that makes a difference, not who you are!!
I could make a persuasive argument that who you choose to associate with, and who chooses to associate with you, is a much better indicator of true character than who you may purport yourself to be online. That really is a subject of another thread, but its a point worth considering.
[This message has been edited by FoX (edited 26 September 2001).]
 
Fox
It seems to me often 'exclusion' is a perception chosen by the 'excluded' individual, rather than by any action taken by anyone.
That is a very tru statement and personally it most likely holds tru......but check out my last response, really just trying to bring up points I think are missed at the moment.
Exclude them how? By referring to events or things that occurred they are unaware of because they happened to not be at a certain event...or often chose not to be?
Not at all, those are things that have been happening since the onset of MDMA Clearinghouse. People saying Hi to each other in threads and all that, shit, thats what should happen. But as a tru outsider, I see many try to break the lines of the "elite" and they are literally ignored, becuase the preservarance of current relationships holds more barring than formulating new ones......In essence you all have become comforatable with one another and feel no need for new involvement.
[This message has been edited by RuRu (edited 26 September 2001).]
 
Ruru:
Its now who you know that makes a difference, not who you are!!
I have to disagree here. Basically, what you are saying, is that the only reason people would respond to a post would be because they know the person? It has nothing to do with what they have to say? I truly find that hard to believe.
It's really simple in my eyes: We choose to respond to something that we are familiar with, find funny, or want to talk about. It only makes sense that those I know are going to post things that fit the above criteria, doesn't it? Since we choose to befriend those with like interests... their posts will be something we're interested in!
We all come to BL for a sense of belonging. You came here for info, as did I, we stayed because we found a sense of belonging that you could not find in the 'Real' world. Well that sense of belonging, for me at least and I can sense it from others that have posted to this thread, has been lost. BL Social has become the real world.
You're absolutely right. The real world does invade bluelight social. Yes, I know people in real life from this board - hell! I live with you! I found a sense of belonging here ONLINE, and I transferred that feeling to the real world. I met these people, I became friends with them. I am not ashamed of that. I feel no reason to HIDE that. It has been an unimaginable gift to me, why would I want to look down on it as something bad?
Oh look! A soapbox... I think I'll stand
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It is, when it comes right down to it, what you make of it. Yes, I felt a sense of belonging here, and decided to act on it. I decided to take it one step further and make online associations REAL associations. And never in my life would I regret that. Bluelight social is JUST a message board. I could stop posting here forever, yet the friends I've made here would continue. And THAT, to me, is what matters. That is why I come here, that is what makes me happy.
I'm not going to not respond to my friends because it would "look bad." If someone is going to get upset because they view other people enjoying themselves... that says a lot more about the person who is offended, in my eyes.
I suppose the real question is this (to all):
Why do YOU read Bluelight social?
I know and have given my reasons, and I am ok with them. I'm here because I have friends here, I'm amused by this forum, and generally just like to be goofy and not think so damn much all the time.
There is no nefariousness in my posting here. I have never made a conscious choice to select certain people over others when deciding what thread to respond to. To repeat myself again: I respond to threads that appeal to me. My friends, being similar to me, tend to write things I find appealing.
 
In essence you all have become comfortable with one another and feel no need for new involvement.
Who are 'you all'? Who decides that there is "no need for new involvement"?
One aspect of this whole debate I have yet to understand is the assertion that there is some group of people..."the clique"...that are making some sort of decisions. This person is cool, this one is not...this person is excluded, this one is included.
We are all INDIVIDUALS, making INDIVIDUAL DECISIONS.
Sounds like "the clique" is rapidly joining the ranks of "the government", "the Illuminati", and "society" as some collective bogeyman...a "THEM" to be feared.
 
ya know, all i have to say is that people are just going to be people--online or not. and i will admit, it DOES seem a little like high school around here sometimes, and that sorta sucks. but i understand that people have friends on here, and they want to talk to them. but what i mean, is it sucks how sometimes everyone in a certain "clique" will gang up on another person outside of that group because of something said by the outsider. one person in that group says something (aka-assraping) and all of a sudden, everyone else in the group is against the outsider too. THAT is how it is like highschool, and why it kind of sucks. but, oh well. just wanted to have a "look at me" moment, and share my opinion.
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**LaDy-StArDuSt**
 
ruru:
In essence you all have become comforatable with one another and feel no need for new involvement.
And to this, my dear, all I can say is bullshit. Perhaps it IS a perception, but it's not one based in fact. Little over a month ago, I met two Bluelighters for the first time, whom I quickly befriended
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In a few weeks, I will be meeting MANY Bluelighters for the first time and I am greatly looking forward to it. That is one of the best things about this board... that we CAN meet others and get into new involvments. Yes, I'm comfortable with the people I know, but that has in no way shape or form prevented me from meeting new people! If anything, my success in meeting such incredible people as I have, has only furthered my desire to meet even more!
You and I have talked about this many a time, and I'm not sure if we will EVER come to a middle ground on this issue. However, I just want to say that I enjoy this debate, as I really DO want to understand this subject. You consider yourself an outsider, and I have been in that position. I was new once, no one knew me... Mona was mean to me
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But that didn't stop me from posting. I kept posting and reading threads until I found my "niche." And now that I have, I'm going to defend my position.
I paid my dues, I went through my stages as a nobody and made MYSELF a place on this board (whatever that place may be). It was NOT because of who I knew, it was because I chose to make myeslf a part of this.
Lady Stardust
but what i mean, is it sucks how sometimes everyone in a certain "clique" will gang up on another person outside of that group because of something said by the outsider. one person in that group says something (aka-assraping) and all of a sudden, everyone else in the group is against the outsider too. THAT is how it is like highschool, and why it kind of sucks.
I'm sorry, but I want proof
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NEVER have I seen members of a so-called clique gang up on an "outsider." The only assraping that occurs it between people who know eachother - that's why they do it.
 
Fox said:
One aspect of this whole debate I have yet to understand is the assertion that there is some group of people..."the clique"...that are making some sort of decisions. This person is cool, this one is not...this person is excluded, this one is included.
We are all INDIVIDUALS, making INDIVIDUAL DECISIONS.
And once again, he managed to convey my point in much less words than I
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"Who you choose to associate with, and who chooses to associate with you, is a much better indicator of true character than who you may purport yourself to be online."
-- FoX
"If someone is going to get upset because they view other people enjoying themselves . . . that says a lot more about the person who is offended."
-- Flower
"No one can make you feel
inferior without your consent."
-- Eleanor Roosevelt
If you want to belong . . . contribute.
There will always be people who behave inappropriately - learn from their inappropriate behavior . . . and appreciate those who behave well.
 
Fox I talk about the who?? You know who, it very easy to see who is in around here. I was gone for 2 or 3 months, and easily picked up as to who was in and who was not, just by reading posts. In any matter, when you are talking about groups or if you need to classify them as cliques, there is not concious decision to do one thing or another, there is no one person in command. It is all undertones, the pac following the outspoken. You dont choose to alienate people, but you also dont choose to include them in the world Flower so adamntly speaks of. A world many want to feel. One that has gotten her so up in arms. It's the sense of belonging, and by not including people you are in essence excluding them too.
I dont mean to say it is your responsibility to take on all BL's. A group is about support. Support in ones ideas and thoughts. Whether they be right or wrong.....ie this thread by fox (thumbs up), assraping a no name cause he called a thread lame (thumbs down)either way both are supported by your friends.
Do you see my point, groups tend to follow mass opinion. And the ones that are outspoken in the group tend to lead it, there is no one leader and there are no point blank decisions, its all a matter of flow.
Please dont put such a finite a point on this discussion. Always pointing to the where and how.....We are talking about a feel on the board, it has gone beyond exact examples. If your here discussing it, you have seen the examples.
You are both trying to defend something now, that in your past, loathed. Cliques, most people here on BL were never a part of one. And of course we loathed them, you two did too, but now your on the otherside and your defending them. Just remember it's never wrong to have friends and to enjoy there company in a public setting. But do that, enjoy their company, but remember there are others around you too, hence it is a public setting.
Ru
 
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