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⫸STICKY⫷ *WARNING* Chronic ketamine/dissociative use causes bladder/organ damage

Vastness

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^^ @LabRat74, thanks for taking the time to look up that stuff. For sure, I think there is a lot of "minmaxing" going on, as you put it (had to urbandictionary that term lol :giggle:) and there is a danger of relying too much on (potentially) minor things like not swallowing the drip. I had also seen this technique touted often as I said but purely anecdotally and it wasn't until I tried crunching the bioavailability numbers that I started to think maybe there was something to it. This is pure theory of course though and there might well be an element of wishful thinking on my part, wanting to find some analytical reason that this should actually help and isn't just wishful thinking on the part of ketamine's fanbase.

On topic, I recently did about 130mg of MXE and in the days afterwards I had minor bladder symptoms, increased urination frequency, and just general bladder awareness that I don't usually have. Admittedly on the day I was not careful with hydration, even had a few beers and mixed with another dehydrating stimulant I had taken earlier in the day (armodafinil). I did take my EGCG supplements like a good dissociative (ab)user, but did not take cranberry extract or some other bladder stuff I forget the name of now but which I usually take on ketamine binges. I also ate like shit the day after. So, basically I did a lot of things wrong and am therefore not too surprised on the one hand to experience negative effects - but on the other hand, I would not expect to experience these same effects if I was entirely ACH-naive, even if I had been just as careless, especially given the quite low dose. So in my own experience there seems to be a definite kindling going on with regards to negative bladder effects. Prior to this I had not used any ketamine in about 40 days, I had used some 3-HO-PCP, although less than 100mg over about a week, and did not experience any apparent bladder side effects from that.
 

LucidSDreamr

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^ i don't think its so much a kindling effect as cumulative damage. i have no scientific ground to base that on. I can tell you that in my experience that some minor "bladder awareness" progresses quite quickly to "i'm going to fucking kill myself from the level of pain I have." This is pain that heroin won't touch..

I often question how much damage or how fucked up drugs have to make my life for me to quit them. I don't wonder that about ketamine even for a second, because the severity of that bladder pain left no question in my mind that i will never touch that drug again, maybe on my death bed ;)

its been about 2 years since my bladder blowout and its still fucked. Not suicidal levels of pain 24/7 anymore, but i still can't eat most foods
 
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Vastness

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Sorry to hear that LucidSDreamer - in my own experience though, the issues do seem go fairly quickly. At least the subjective ones. I guess I could be considered a lighter user than some, though. What I'd really like is to get some kind of deep high fidelity 3D scan of my bladder and have someone talk me though if I have indeed done any permanent damage.

I have read a study that suggested in the absence of continuing to use ACHs, things do generally return to nornaml within about a year, although I guess the cut off point is hard to predict or perceive, when too much is too much.

A good rule of thumb for sure is quit forever at first alerts, advice I did not personally heed, although I'm going to do my very bust not to do a single ACH for at least a year now.
 

Vastness

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Also ^ have you ever tried BPC-157? I suggest this to people all the time but I'm not sure anyone's ever taken my advice. It seems to be a universal soft tissue healer or sorts though and there is scant evidence that these healing effects might extend to the bladder... in fact I think I posted such reference further up in this very thread.

Edit, here we go:
The discussion of peptides in that other thread just reminded me of something - I remember thinking a while ago that there might be some potential for BPC-157 to be useful in reversing ketamine-induced bladder damage.

For anyone not aware this is an interesting peptide which is stable in human gastric juices (and therefore, supposedly, orally active) and seems to have quite wide effectiveness in promoting various forms of soft-tissue healing. So far most people using it are using it primarily for muscular or tendon injuries, but it has also shown some promise in treatment of bowel conditions like ulcerative colitis and other inflammatory bowel diseases. It appears to have anti-ulcer properties and there are a lot of anecdotal reports of people using it to clear up digestive issues. I wondered if it's healing properties would also extend to the bladder... and in fact, there is some early indication that they do indeed!

Novel Approach in Therapy of Internal Fistulas: The Stable Gastric Pentadecapeptide BPC 157 in Therapy of Vesicovaginal Fistulas in Rats


A "vesicovaginal fistula" apparently, is a hole in the bladder which allows fluids to leak continuously into the vaginal cavity - the study above seems to indicate that BPC-157 made a marked difference to the controls and essentially completely closed these fistulas! I would say despite the fact that this study was done in rats, coupled with the evidence of BPC-157's effectiveness in healing other tissues in humans, this is a very good sign!

I think I recommended a while back to another member here that they give BPC-157 a try, although I have no idea if they did. I forgot but I actually used BPC-157 myself shortly after my first bladder scare - I have no idea if it was effective or not really because I also abstained for maybe as long a 6 months and probably my symptoms were fairly minor... but this does look very promising, I would really urge anyone with persistent bladder related problems from ketamine abuse to give it a try and report back - it seems to be very well tolerated overall so the worst that can happen is probably that it just doesn't work - especially if you go the oral route (I believe it should be active sublingually too, given it's resistance to human digestive enzymes... or possibly nasally, I know there are a few places offering it as a nasal spray).
 

LucidSDreamr

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Sorry to hear that LucidSDreamer - in my own experience though, the issues do seem go fairly quickly. At least the subjective ones. I guess I could be considered a lighter user than some, though. What I'd really like is to get some kind of deep high fidelity 3D scan of my bladder and have someone talk me though if I have indeed done any permanent damage.

I have read a study that suggested in the absence of continuing to use ACHs, things do generally return to nornaml within about a year, although I guess the cut off point is hard to predict or perceive, when too much is too much.

A good rule of thumb for sure is quit forever at first alerts, advice I did not personally heed, although I'm going to do my very bust not to do a single ACH for at least a year now.
interstitial cystitis is considered a permanent condition, the bladder wall does not grow back - this is what I've read, but I am not a urologist. My use was quite light. I had friends using absurd amounts more than me that didn't develop problems. The only diagnostic that can make a definitive finding is a cystoscopy.

In my case, there were minor sensations and feelings for a year or two when they first started, that would only appear when using NMDA antagonists. Then i started to notice them when doing other drugs (kratom and stimulants in particular).

I went from not thinking I had much bladder damage to enduring months and months of pain that was the worst pain imaginable. It all happened very quickly in how it escalted. We can tell ourselves all day that using a little won't hurt or that taking breaks allows the bladder to heal. The truth is that these drugs (the RCs) are all new and we don't know a damn thing about them.

Just because bladder pain subsides does not mean your bladder has healed it self. I have periods with no pain whatsoever that last for weeks or months even. One spicy dish, one wrong drug...a world of pain is unleashed. The damage is permanent just because the pain isn't.
 

MonkeysOnEcstacy

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Interesting stuff. Funny that I have a urologist friend who I tend to get my K from. Guess it's just good business to him... 😉🤔

I will have to pick his brain over this stuff next time we're together.

In other related notes, I haven't seen any mention of Olney's lesions also known as NMDA receptor antagonist neurotoxicity (NAN), are a form of potential brain damage due to drugs that have been studied experimentally and have produced neuronal damage, yet are administered by doctors to humans in the settings of pharmacotherapy and of anesthesia.


This study revealed the lesions in many regions of the brain of ketamine addicts. These lesions appeared as minute patches in the first year and became larger sites of atrophy by 4 years of addiction. The majority of the addicts was on dosage of 1 g per day and used ketamine daily for several years. In this work, since the volunteers were mostly below 30 years old and only 2 individuals above 30 years old, a comparison of the effect of age upon addiction was not conclusive in this stage, even though we had seen no worse in the aged group (above 30 years old) when compared with the slightly younger old. A study of age response would definitely be conducted in future. However, it is well-known that ketamine addicts were usually young as represented in this cohort. The brain regions affected were prefrontal, parietal, occipital, limbic, brainstem, and corpus striatum. The lesions affected both the gray and white matter, i.e., neurons and nerve fibers in the human; these were similar to those reported earlier by us in the mice and the monkey (Yu et al., 2012). This MRI study also collated with the work by Morgan and Curran suggesting a loss of memory via psychological examination in chronic ketamine abuses (Morgan and Curran, 2006). In animals, prefrontal cortex apoptosis, mutated tau aggregation, brainstem chemical changes, and cerebellar apoptosis had been reported (Mak et al., 2010; Yeung et al., 2010b; Sun et al., 2011, 2012; Tan et al., 2011b, 2012; Yu et al., 2012; Wai et al., 2013). In fact, in the mice model, it had been documented both neurons and fibers (white matter) were both targets like in this report consisting of human subjects (Mak et al., 2010; Yeung et al., 2010b). Along with structural changes, fMRI and functional studies confirmed functional and cognitive derangements (Morgan and Curran, 2006; Sun et al., 2011, 2012; Chan et al., 2012; Yu et al., 2012). This human MRI brain imaging on the ketamine addicts thus consolidated that the areas of lesion in mice, monkey, and human were essentially similar. We now have clear and unequivocal proof of damages in the CNS upon chronic use of ketamine in human


This shit scares the piss out of me (pun intended 🤫) but I still love me some dissos, although it's been over a year now.

Did anyone else ever notice the brain damage / concussed feel that others often refer to as "afterglow" from some dissos (specifically DXM). Its been almost 20 years since I last touched that stuff, but I know for a fact it was seriously fucking up my brain.
 

Vastness

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interstitial cystitis is considered a permanent condition, the bladder wall does not grow back - this is what I've read, but I am not a urologist. My use was quite light. I had friends using absurd amounts more than me that didn't develop problems. The only diagnostic that can make a definitive finding is a cystoscopy.

In my case, there were minor sensations and feelings for a year or two when they first started, that would only appear when using NMDA antagonists. Then i started to notice them when doing other drugs (kratom and stimulants in particular).

I went from not thinking I had much bladder damage to enduring months and months of pain that was the worst pain imaginable. It all happened very quickly in how it escalted. We can tell ourselves all day that using a little won't hurt or that taking breaks allows the bladder to heal. The truth is that these drugs (the RCs) are all new and we don't know a damn thing about them.

Just because bladder pain subsides does not mean your bladder has healed it self. I have periods with no pain whatsoever that last for weeks or months even. One spicy dish, one wrong drug...a world of pain is unleashed. The damage is permanent just because the pain isn't.
Damn... that is concerning. I guess I'm not overly surprised though. I'm at the point right now seemingly that even doing small amounts of MXE (~100mg in a night) will give me bladder pain and urinary retention during, or at least, as soon as the immediate dissociation wears off, and maybe the day after. Larger amounts of ketamine can cause more persistent uncomfortable sensations but I haven't touched that stuff in just over 2 months (65 days to be exact). Hopefully I've managed to call time on ACHs in time... I do wonder sometimes if my bladder capacity has reduced slightly, but just not to the point of clinical significance... I'd be very interested to get a cystoscopy but I suppose it wouldn't be easy to get without more persistent symptoms, and maybe not worth it anyway because it sounds a fairly unpleasant procedure!
 

Cream Gravy?

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Interesting stuff. Funny that I have a urologist friend who I tend to get my K from. Guess it's just good business to him... 😉🤔

I will have to pick his brain over this stuff next time we're together.

In other related notes, I haven't seen any mention of Olney's lesions also known as NMDA receptor antagonist neurotoxicity (NAN), are a form of potential brain damage due to drugs that have been studied experimentally and have produced neuronal damage, yet are administered by doctors to humans in the settings of pharmacotherapy and of anesthesia.






This shit scares the piss out of me (pun intended 🤫) but I still love me some dissos, although it's been over a year now.

Did anyone else ever notice the brain damage / concussed feel that others often refer to as "afterglow" from some dissos (specifically DXM). Its been almost 20 years since I last touched that stuff, but I know for a fact it was seriously fucking up my brain.
Pretty sure it's generally assumed Olney's Lesions are a fabricated/inaccurate portrayal of NMDA action in the brain; however, DXM abuse I bet might still cause some sort of long term issues. I only ever abused MXE and I feel none the worse for it and never think twice about Olney. DXM is a crazy one though, it's like booze, a shotgun to the brain.
 

MonkeysOnEcstacy

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I've heard that side of the Olney's lesions take too, any supporting info on the "fabricated/exaggerated"?

The study I posted is relatively old (2013) and also a very small sample size of users who are at 1g a day for multiple years.... so I'm sure there is new info
 
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