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☠ WARNING ☠ *WARNING* Chronic ketamine/dissociative use causes bladder/organ damage

Jaia

Greenlighter
Joined
Jul 23, 2012
Messages
19
So, I've read through this thread several times and I know it's been discussed already, but I'd still like to ask this question again; If I have aquired chronic pain/damage via dissociative (ab)use, except for quitting dissos all together, what should I do to soothe the pain and possibily speed up my bladders healing process?
I contracted damage to my bladder about a year ago after a moderate intake of ketamine and 2-FDCK. I used the drugs for a few months each, all in all using less than 10g. The level of pain is not too bothering (I'd rate it 3 out of 10), but it is however more or less contast. I feel sorry for those of you who have live with stronger pain, I really do.
Has anyone experienced pain relief using any remedies? Supplements? I try to eat and drink as healthy as possible. Also tried dried cranberry extract with little to no effect. Perhaps I should try take it more continuously over a longer period (months)? Any help appreciated. Stay strong
 

plumbus-nine

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 4, 2021
Messages
897
Location
Mexico
Has anyone experienced pain relief using any remedies? Supplements? I try to eat and drink as healthy as possible. Also tried dried cranberry extract with little to no effect. Perhaps I should try take it more continuously over a longer period (months)? Any help appreciated. Stay strong
Unfortunately I don't know about healthy options; any dissociative will work (memantine is one which doesn't hurt the bladder any more, and might be active in low [medicinal, like 20mg/d] dosages which don't interfere with everyday life after you got used to it. Maybe even agmatine could help a bit, I never took it but as its used to lower opioid tolerance, there seems to be some central activity.

Maybe also anti-inflammatory drugs like ibuprofen might help.

But heavy that you got symptoms from less than 10g altogether, and that it stays on this level without subsiding. :( There must be some impurity/synthesis leftover going around which seems to be heavily toxic. I used a solid three figure number and got a similar level of pain but mine recovered within months, and felt that illicit (darknet) K was the worst by far, the only one which gave me the 'K cramps' and this from just a few g over a short amount of time.

Drinking enough is always good, I felt like staying hydrated while dissociating also helps to avoid inflammation. But if my hunch is correct then we have multiple sources, once the agents themselves being mildly toxic and some impurities with much stronger toxicity. As it seems that it's structure based and not a direct consequence of NMDA antagonism (otherwise all dissociatives would cause more or less the same impact but they don't - but even here I read conflicting theories), this is well possible, unfortunately.
About the cranberries I just know that they're used for bladder infections (?) but with K it's aseptic. Dunno whether continued use and/or higher dosages might help.

Hope yours will still recover as fast as possible!
 
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Bitchniggaz

Bluelighter
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Messages
478
So what is your best remedies to calm down your bladder after a ket binge?

I usually get uti like symptoms if i overdo My ket(5grams in a week or so)
But it usually clears after a week or so.

What helps for me is avoiding coffee (not easy)
And drink loads of water and apple cider vinegar.
Also i usually take oregano oil for about 2weeks.(strong natural antibiotic)
 

plumbus-nine

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 4, 2021
Messages
897
Location
Mexico
Cranberry extract might be worth a try. Schisandra berry extract is famous for its regenerative properties, I discovered it through the local drogist's after-sun cream which contained schisandra as active ingredient and found it to be seriously superior to aloe vera which so far is the gold standard for sunburn. It's used traditionally to aid with liver toxicity recovery but no clue whether it even reaches the bladder and if, if and to which degree it might help and which dosage required. Hope somebody knows something better though. Staying hydrated is very essential, but also my theory is that it's less a problem of K than of some nasty impurities originating from illicit synthesis by backyard chemists, as the RC derivates in purity didn't show any real toxicity in me even after serious abuse only certain bad batches out off the Onion caused symptoms, foremost illicit (supposedly 86 percent pure, at least it was pretty potent, so only like 14-20% of impurities left which were much more toxic than the remaining amount of K itself.) Only some batches of illicitly synthed K gave me these infamous "K cramps", while other batches and high doses of 2F-/DCK didn't even over extended periods of (ab)use.

Yeah, caffeine is harsh to the urinary tract. Maybe you could replace it with a very low dosage of dex-amphetamine/stim of choice (better not meth as that one has bad neurotoxicity specially in combination) on the disso days, might well be that that puts a similar strain on your body though but I never had problems from combining low dose stim + dissociative. It makes it hard to hole though, while otherwise showing mostly synergetic effects.

@Bitchniggaz: As long as your symptoms clear up you probably didn't cross a certain threshold yet, but that's a weird thing, some say any ACH related urotoxicity was irreversible while the OP here, who had much much worse symptoms than I ever did, as well as myself did mostly recover with abstinence. Still for harm reduction's sake I'd recommend to switch to 2F-DCK - with legality as a cherry on top (dunno about the US though, they have some shitty ass analogue laws).

As for neurotoxicity, as weird as it seems but 5ht2a-agonists (psychedelics that is) are the antidote of choice against NMDA antagonist induced neurotoxicity, possibly by increased release of growth factors.
 
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Shinji Ikari

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Joined
Aug 31, 2021
Messages
82
Location
United Kingdom
If anyone was worried about their usage vis-a-vis bladder damage and needed a deterrent, these specimens have appeared on reddit over the last week or so. Graphics image warning close your eyes and scroll past if you don't want to see what happens when you cause so much damage you literally start pissing your bladder out:
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https://www.reddit.com/r/ketamine/comments/pcqufu
https://www.reddit.com/r/ketamine/comments/pcx4m1
For the sake of avoiding fear-mongering, it is worth noting that the people who posted these images were chronic users who had been abusing ketamine on a daily basis for over a year. This isn't something that would affect the majority of casual users.
 
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plumbus-nine

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 4, 2021
Messages
897
Location
Mexico
For the sake of avoiding fear-mongering, it is worth noting that the people who posted these images were chronic users who had been abusing ketamine on a daily basis for over a year. This isn't something that would affect the majority of casual users.
The weird point remains that K has been around for long time and some used it for years on end without getting any bladder related discomfort (see John Lilly) - this makes me believe that we have it to do with some nasty synth leftover rather than the K itself. Arylcyclohexylamines are somewhat irritant to the bladder but this here is far far worse. Also the RCs (2-F and DCK) did only minorly irritate even after probably two-three years of multiple doses daily. It's not healthy for sure but nothing like what we see with current illicit ketamine.
 

JackARoe

Bluelighter
Joined
Jan 16, 2009
Messages
1,715
Ugh, I shouldn't have looked. But you did warn.

As far as no bladder issues years ago I only knew one or two fairly heavy ketamine users 30-35 years ago. They used vet ketamine vials. There was no mention of bladder issues. So it is a good topic to look into athough I think it has been determined that it is the norketamine that they pegged the bladder issues on recently.

As far as John C Lilly I really believe that you all current users far surpassed the frequency and amount of use. There is that one year that is mentioned in all the books and I do think Lilly stopped a lot sooner than some other people here on BL. Yeay, you guys took it to a different level. lol
 

plumbus-nine

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 4, 2021
Messages
897
Location
Mexico
Yeah, probably the easy availability of low price K in some places led to use we haven't seen before but some are reporting issues with just a few ten grams over a few months. Once I used 25g of Darknet K over a few days and got an agony of K cramps pain which 15x the amount of 2F DCK didn't remotely. So I'd say norket is urotoxic but only slightly and we have similar but much more toxic compounds in there or metabolized out of some synth leftover.

Illicit K is considered pure when it has some 84-86% afaik. That's not really a good value and leaves space for God knows what not.
 

Shinji Ikari

Bluelighter
Joined
Aug 31, 2021
Messages
82
Location
United Kingdom
Yeah, probably the easy availability of low price K in some places led to use we haven't seen before but some are reporting issues with just a few ten grams over a few months. Once I used 25g of Darknet K over a few days and got an agony of K cramps pain which 15x the amount of 2F DCK didn't remotely. So I'd say norket is urotoxic but only slightly and we have similar but much more toxic compounds in there or metabolized out of some synth leftover.

Illicit K is considered pure when it has some 84-86% afaik. That's not really a good value and leaves space for God knows what not.
Bladder issues seem pretty widespread geographically with people around the world being affected. I don't know how to explain that unless the entire worlds supply of ketamine is coming from a single source (not that I know anything about the illicit ketamine supply chain, maybe it does come from a single source).

Most samples on drugs data just show ketamine and leftover precursor whatever that entails.

I'd be inclined to side with the hypothesis that people just take a lot more ketamine these days and that's led to more reports of this kind emerging. Compounded as you said by cheap easy access to the drug but also by the fact that everyone has broadband and smartphones so word spreads faster than 20 years ago. What else can we assume unless something weird and identifiably bladder melting shows up in a lab test?
 

Tramalala

Bluelighter
Joined
Mar 20, 2021
Messages
153
Didn't read through the whole thread but isn't it widely known that GreenTea helps a lot with protecting your bladder from ketamine damage? Or even restoring it. Once I started to pee more and it would sometimes leak when doing a lot of dissos I read about the greentea and I found a lot of relieve within a few days. 2-3 greentea cups a day and your bladder will feel like normal again soon.
 

plumbus-nine

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 4, 2021
Messages
897
Location
Mexico
Didn't read through the whole thread but isn't it widely known that GreenTea helps a lot with protecting your bladder from ketamine damage? Or even restoring it. Once I started to pee more and it would sometimes leak when doing a lot of dissos I read about the greentea and I found a lot of relieve within a few days. 2-3 greentea cups a day and your bladder will feel like normal again soon.
Somehow I don't buy these natural-stuff-heals-all claims but maybe there's something into it. My gf drinks every day 3-6 cups of green tea and swears on its protective effects against all sorts of sicknesses but I guess she's just a healthy person and a bit addicted to caffeine... yet anything anti-inflammatory might help with ketamine use, as well it is essential to stay hydrated. Curious whether e.g. ibuprofen taken together with the ket could prevent the worst?

It doesn't have to be a single supply but the same synthesis route which is a lot more plausible, as many precursors to drugs are controlled and limited so people go for whatever's the easiest one to source (see meth, there's a bit more known about how it's cooked). It might be that some of the leftover precursors which will have similar structures to e.g. norketamine but maybe it's of potency like PCP at whatever binding site's responsible for the urotoxic effects.. it's not NMDA at least as far I know, so not related to the compound's potency as a dissociative. I used PCP only as an example. There are some uber potent arylcyclohexylamines like BTPC (maybe I spelled it wrong), which isn't a disso but a dopamine reuptake inhibitor. Also I have some hunch that the arylcyclohexylamines or part of them are actually either direct or indirect agonists at steroid receptors. These are involved in inflammatory responses (see cortisol). Now cortisol is anti-inflammatory afaik(?) - imagine an extremely potent compound with the inverse effects of cortisol, which accumulates in the bladder as a terminal metabolite (that's significant amounts only occur in the bladder) and voila.
 

Tramalala

Bluelighter
Joined
Mar 20, 2021
Messages
153
Somehow I don't buy these natural-stuff-heals-all claims but maybe there's something into it. My gf drinks every day 3-6 cups of green tea and swears on its protective effects against all sorts of sicknesses but I guess she's just a healthy person and a bit addicted to caffeine... yet anything anti-inflammatory might help with ketamine use, as well it is essential to stay hydrated. Curious whether e.g. ibuprofen taken together with the ket could prevent the worst?

It doesn't have to be a single supply but the same synthesis route which is a lot more plausible, as many precursors to drugs are controlled and limited so people go for whatever's the easiest one to source (see meth, there's a bit more known about how it's cooked). It might be that some of the leftover precursors which will have similar structures to e.g. norketamine but maybe it's of potency like PCP at whatever binding site's responsible for the urotoxic effects.. it's not NMDA at least as far I know, so not related to the compound's potency as a dissociative. I used PCP only as an example. There are some uber potent arylcyclohexylamines like BTPC (maybe I spelled it wrong), which isn't a disso but a dopamine reuptake inhibitor. Also I have some hunch that the arylcyclohexylamines or part of them are actually either direct or indirect agonists at steroid receptors. These are involved in inflammatory responses (see cortisol). Now cortisol is anti-inflammatory afaik(?) - imagine an extremely potent compound with the

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1879522615004157

It's a study on rats though so take that for what it's worth. In my personal experience it helps and I believe there is a big reddit thread on it too with people supposedly getting beneficial effects.
 

plumbus-nine

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Mexico
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1879522615004157

It's a study on rats though so take that for what it's worth. In my personal experience it helps and I believe there is a big reddit thread on it too with people supposedly getting beneficial effects.
Interesting, it can't hurt to drink some strong green tea alongside arylcyclohexylamine use but again, from my experiences I suspect that there's something different wrong than just ketamine metabolites but then again, when it's synth leftovers then they might have a similar structure/mode of action and thus green tea still help ...

It should be made easier for interested laymen to conduct experiments with cell lines etc. so that one could try whether this applies to humans too and what dosage/concentration of these catchines is necessary.
 

G_Chem

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 17, 2015
Messages
4,060
The weird point remains that K has been around for long time and some used it for years on end without getting any bladder related discomfort (see John Lilly) - this makes me believe that we have it to do with some nasty synth leftover rather than the K itself. Arylcyclohexylamines are somewhat irritant to the bladder but this here is far far worse. Also the RCs (2-F and DCK) did only minorly irritate even after probably two-three years of multiple doses daily. It's not healthy for sure but nothing like what we see with current illicit ketamine.

I think your right Plumbus. I’ve talked about just how sensitive I am before, and I notice problems only with certain batches.

When we look at DrugsData we see much of the Ketamine contains at least 1 precursor of which they don’t identify. It’s rare to not find this precursor in modern Ketamine.

-GC
 

Shinji Ikari

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It's a scary thought. If it really is a synthesis change resulting in leftover precursor that's leading to these reports then no amount of ketamine usage can be assumed to be safe. How do you practice harm reduction when there are no reliable metrics for what degree of usage begins to cause damage? I wonder if it might be worth trying to contact someone from drugsdata to find out what 'precursor A' entails. For all we know it might be something new that wasn't appearing in earlier samples or it might just be that they didn't report leftover synth materials in earlier samples. I don't know.

It's a bummer as I've only just begun experimenting with dissociatives and have already had some fascinating experiences while in the hole. All of this just makes we want to steer clear completely.
 

Tramalala

Bluelighter
Joined
Mar 20, 2021
Messages
153
It's a scary thought. If it really is a synthesis change resulting in leftover precursor that's leading to these reports then no amount of ketamine usage can be assumed to be safe. How do you practice harm reduction when there are no reliable metrics for what degree of usage begins to cause damage? I wonder if it might be worth trying to contact someone from drugsdata to find out what 'precursor A' entails. For all we know it might be something new that wasn't appearing in earlier samples or it might just be that they didn't report leftover synth materials in earlier samples. I don't know.

It's a bummer as I've only just begun experimenting with dissociatives and have already had some fascinating experiences while in the hole. All of this just makes we want to steer clear completely.
I mean from reports I've read and my own experiences it doesn't look like suddenly you just started pissing out your bladder-lining. It will start slowly with pain, some incontinence etc. If you get any of those warning signs you should obviously quit for an extended period and it looks like your bladder will then heal itself, mostly. As long as you stay hydrated with water and green tea.

And this is only with heavy use. I doubt using ketamine or any of the currently more common dissos once or twice a month is going to do much damage. Ofcourse, there is always a risk. Some might be more susceptible to these side-effects than others. YMMV and be careful, listen to your body!
 

Shinji Ikari

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Ofcourse, there is always a risk. Some might be more susceptible to these side-effects than others. YMMV and be careful, listen to your body!
I get what you're saying, I'd just rather avoid getting to the point where I have to listen to my body. Prevention is better than cure and all that.

To be fair, I wasn't planning on using ketamine more than once or twice a month anyway as building a tolerance really would be waste, this compound has bought me to insightful and introspective states that I've not been able to replicate in any other way. All the same, It's kind of hard to push this kind of thing to the back of my mind even as a relatively modest user.
 

jhjhsdi

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Joined
Jul 16, 2010
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Urology Department
If anyone was worried about their usage vis-a-vis bladder damage and needed a deterrent, these specimens have appeared on reddit over the last week or so. Graphics image warning close your eyes and scroll past if you don't want to see what happens when you cause so much damage you literally start pissing your bladder out:
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https://www.reddit.com/r/ketamine/comments/pcqufu
https://www.reddit.com/r/ketamine/comments/pcx4m1
For the sake of avoiding fear-mongering, it is worth noting that the people who posted these images were chronic users who had been abusing ketamine on a daily basis for over a year. This isn't something that would affect the majority of casual users.
Savage to see other people going through that shit. I been there pissing out that same exact shit and its fuckin horrible (check the first link in my sig)
Took a month of complete abstinence from K in IP rehab and co-amoxiclav plus oxybutyn for bladder spasms, and opiates and benzos 4 x daily for the pain until the snot and puss finally fucked off. That was over 5 years ago and my bladder still isnt back to normal - it'll never be.
Best of luck to anyone suffering like that - i wouldn't wish that shit on many people.
They need to STOP and NOW! The specialists told me i had 2 weeks to a month of continuing use before I would have had to have had my bladder removed.
 

Shinji Ikari

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Joined
Aug 31, 2021
Messages
82
Location
United Kingdom
Savage to see other people going through that shit. I been there pissing out that same exact shit and its fuckin horrible (check the first link in my sig)
Took a month of complete abstinence from K in IP rehab and co-amoxiclav plus oxybutyn for bladder spasms, and opiates and benzos 4 x daily for the pain until the snot and puss finally fucked off. That was over 5 years ago and my bladder still isnt back to normal - it'll never be.
Best of luck to anyone suffering like that - i wouldn't wish that shit on many people.
They need to STOP and NOW! The specialists told me i had 2 weeks to a month of continuing use before I would have had to have had my bladder removed.
I'm so sorry you had to go through all that but at the same time congratulations on how far you've come and thank you for being so open about your story, I really think seeing this kind of will help a lot of people who are on the same tracks you were. Sometimes this kind of thing doesn't seem real when you're just hearing about it, but seeing it up close is something else entirely.

Also, Urology Department, lol.
 

plumbus-nine

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 4, 2021
Messages
897
Location
Mexico
I mean from reports I've read and my own experiences it doesn't look like suddenly you just started pissing out your bladder-lining. It will start slowly with pain, some incontinence etc. If you get any of those warning signs you should obviously quit for an extended period and it looks like your bladder will then heal itself, mostly. As long as you stay hydrated with water and green tea.
It's a bummer as I've only just begun experimenting with dissociatives and have already had some fascinating experiences while in the hole. All of this just makes we want to steer clear completely.

Yeah, I see it this way, that current illicit K is the physically most dangerous dissociative out there. I got an agony of spasm pain from as little as 25g ket over maybe 5 days while I used shitloads of the deschlorinated RCs with next to no adverse effects besides one contaiminated batch which caused excessive vascoconstriction and maybe a heart attack or something which looks and feels like one (ugh. But I don't want to scare monger, it was my own fault, I wanted to buy cheap and went darknet / shady China vendors instead of so-called trusted ones, and without the destructive mindset I had at that time I had stopped before, there were solid symptoms which pointed to toxicity but I didn't listen).

So, if you can, get 2F or DCK from one of these vendors with good reviews. Some actually test their shit or buy from others which tested, of course you should never really believe what they say and if you can, get a test yourself, you have only one single body and health, no drug is worth to ruin it for. Unfortunately even the better drug test corps seem to be unable to identify synth leftovers they don't have a reference for, which makes it impossible to discriminate between harmless and harmful impurities but if they show up to be whatever lactose, MSG etc then you know that it'll hopefully be safe.
 
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