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☠ WARNING ☠ *WARNING* Chronic ketamine/dissociative use causes bladder/organ damage

Vastness

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For the record I just indulged in my first moderate disso binge in over 4 months, I don't know the exact dates but before then I was using DCK occasionally but in quite measured doses, like 10mg at a time for a slight mood boost and not holeing. I did go through close to 3 grams of the stuff in maybe 6 months though... I also haven't used any actual ketamine for, probably a year or more now.

My usage pattern was as follows - I dosed 600mg Ketamine one day (3 days ago to be exact) then 400mg 2 days later. Yesterday I also dosed 75mg DCK in the early morning which was a terrible decision for many reasons that I won't bother going into in this thread.

I preloaded with a lot of vitamins, some of which I take daily anyway, but possible ACH-relevant ones were Blueberry extract, cranberry extract, obvious EGCG (green tea extract, 98% polyphenols, 45% EGCG - 725mg total, so 326mg EGCG). I took one per day from day 1 of K indulgence up to today - so 5 days so far. Yesterday I also took 1g D-mannose post DCK dose, I'm still not sure what exactly this is supposed to do but it's for urinary stuff, so...

During my 4 months off, I spent 2 of them 100% sober, 1 of them vaguely sober but with the odd beer or benzo, and 1 of them even less sober with the odd mild stim like flmodafinil and PPAP HCl. During my sober phase, I think midway between months 2 and 3, I did a course of N-Acetyl-Epitalon-Amidate via nasal spray, as well as a course of Thymalin, simultaneously. I think doses were 5mg NA-Epitalon-A and 5mg Thymalin per day (this is off the top of my head and also not accounting for nasal bioavailability - I'll check if anyone wants me to).

Following this, I started a course of BPC-157, again intranasal via nasal spray. I've dragged this out a bit and actually was still administering it during my disso dalliances.

For the most part - I've also been eating well, fairly low carb, not a lot of red meat, veggies as much as I can stomach... not sure how much relevance this has but I mention it for completeness.

Anyway following my brief disso revisits - I experienced zero, and I mean zero bladder disturbances, either during or after. I actually had a hint of bladder sensation at the moment of insufflation of K line 1 - but I reasoned there was no chance it would be having an inflammatory effect so quickly, was most likely once nocebo, and it passed. I also made sure to drink water throughout my dosing - and kept a glass as a spitoon of a sort nearby to spit out the drip when I remembered.

The quality of my trips was also improved. I did not hole on K alone - but I also did not try to, or intend to, preferring to skirt the edges of true hole space. I believe I could have however, if I'd dosed more quickly.

Prior to my 6 month break, even using a small amount of any disso would give me a bladder awareness that sometimes came and went for days after, was anxiety inducing and while not exactly painful - not pleasant. I also experienced increased urge to urinate pretty consistently, and would wake up several times a night to do so. This has also improved during my time off, to the point my nightime urination is down to basically 1 time or even 0, depending how much liquid I drink close to bedtime.

I write this hoping not to lull anyone into a false sense of security. And I DO NOT intend to push my luck. A disso night every 4 to 6 months as I originally planned, in low, controlled doses, or even less... is good enough for me. But primarily I share it to make people aware that anecdotally, in my personal experience at least - bladder issues and permatolerance, likely if they are only in the very early stages, mind - POSSIBLY can be reversed - SOMEWHAT - with a sufficient period of abstinence, and quite possibly, the appropriate choice of supplementation and healing peptides during this period.


IMPORTANT EDIT FOR PUBLIC HEALTH: Unfortunately despite my own proclamation that I was not going to push my luck, my dissociative-addict-tendencies got the better of me and I most definitely did. About 10 days after my reported disso-escapade above from which I believed myself to have emerged relatively unscathed, I ended up dosing around ~100mg DCK over about a day, and since then have begun to experience familiar signs of ACH-induced bladder cystitis, most noticeable for me in the morning, although intermittently at times throughout the day. Additionally, I also became really unwell about a day after, with symptoms primarily manifesting as major fatigue... which brings to mind DCK's reported possible immunosuppresive effects.

So, yes, despite everything I said I lulled MYSELF into a false sense of security, pushed my luck, and here I am. I am somewhat hopeful that I will still recover based just on past experience... but either way, it's clear if I continue to use dissociatives, at least of the ACH kind, I'll be walking a dangerous and possibly just stupid, addiction-rationalised road.
 
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LucidSDreamr

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I appreciate you sharing your experiences and I'm sorry to hear about your health problems.

I did try the DCK on one more occasion but I drank a load of green tea before and during the session and didn't have any of the same symptoms as the first time. I've finished the 200mg DCK I had now and I won't get any more. I did get a gram of K a while back but I've not tried any yet, read lots about rubbish K going around so I'd like to get it tested before I try it. I am concerned by how addictive some users find it though, so maybe I will just bin it.
I know as addicts we don't learn from the experience of others but it will be too late once you've done further damage. I would leave dissos behind for good if you have any symptoms recently. I wish I did.

Also, if you are developing bladder cystitis caffeine (green tea) isn't going to prevent it. It may alter bladder function that let's your bladder operate functionally but it is not going to prevent the damage to the glycosaminoglycan layer of your bladder wall these drugs do, which irreversible.
 

Chris Timothy

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Green tea doesn't work because of the caffeine, it works despite the caffeine. Because in so far the damage is aggravated by inflammation, this is lessened by green tea's various anti-inflammatory compounds.

Why do you think damage to the mucus layer is irreversible? Generally it seems to regenerate just fine, within 24 hours after removal.


Edit: what is considered irreversible though is the fibrosis. The body eventually gives up healing the inflammation and vascular complications the regular way, and dumps collagen onto it as to form scar tissue. The inflammation is submucosal, the problem can only partially be framed as the ketamine corroding, and triggering the shedding of, the most outer layer, which on itself would be reversible.
 
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Chris Timothy

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Though I should be more specific than calling it corrosion. Lately much about what ketamine does to cells has been mapped out. It basically ends up messing with mitochondria and the endoplasmatic reticulum, putting them in overdrive. The resulting apoptosis is a controlled, clean cell death, the immune response of inflammation only gets triggered once the outer layer is breached. To postpone getting at that stage, you can try saving your cells from oxidative stress.

I don't recall whether it's been mentioned in this thread already, but even if it has it bears repeating. Antioxidants in general, not just anti-inflammatory compounds (although antioxidants are anti-inflammatory too), can be supplemented to extend bladder longevity. Vitamin E, lipoic acid, NAC, Q10, etc... can be taken some time before, during, and some time after the trip. Note that they in general cross-potentiate. Also note that constantly taking high doses is a waste, the body is used to (and even depends on) some degree of cellular damage, just not the amount happening during space time, for which the little guys could use some reinforcements.
 

Vastness

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Q10, etc...
Oh yes, I probably should have included above that I have also been taking CoQ10, 300mg, daily during my abstinence stretch, perhaps that also is a significant factor to the apparent reversal of perceptible ACH-induced bladder sensitivity that I seem to have experienced. I don't imagine I'm entirely healed of course - quite possibly, I could induce bladder sensitivity again, more quickly than it took to develop the first time, if I really tried... but I would really encourage anyone with persistent KIC or disso induced cystitis symptoms to try to replicate the peptide and supplementation course I described above during a long period of abstinence.

BPC-157 specifically has been shown to completely heal bladder fistulas in rats - so there is good evidence it might do something good in humans too as far as bladder repair. I'm sure I mention it often but strangely do not see any reports of people actually trying it out that I can remember.
 

Chris Timothy

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Hmm.. fistulas perhaps, and it does seem to work to attenuate acute bladder inflammation. But ketamine already stimulates blood vessel growth, it's part of the pathology, it's part of what gets blood in the bladder. And I'm not sure you want to stimulate extra collagen production once the fibrosis has started. Then again, not exactly sure what to do once the fibrosis has started. NSAIDs help prevent it directly, but they come with their own kidney load apparently. Low doses could therefore be considered I guess, though the kidneys are of course much more important than the bladder lining. And I personally wouldn't call the fibrosis impairing.

What else I have gathered about specific aftercare following bladder inflammation is: omega-3 for the resolvins, baby aspirin at some point (minding the baby kidney load) for the lipoxins, and a low dose of an anticholinergic, for the same reason one tones down the immune response during an allergic reaction.
 

Vastness

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Just to keep everyone informed, I did not heed any of my own advice regarding not pushing my luck and on a second attempted dive in the dissociative sea, this time about 100mg DCK only, I DID again develop bladder symptoms. So whatever recovery I did experience no doubt was a tenuous one. I edited my post above and I'll quote myself for my own convenience and that of everyone else:

IMPORTANT EDIT FOR PUBLIC HEALTH: Unfortunately despite my own proclamation that I was not going to push my luck, my dissociative-addict-tendencies got the better of me and I most definitely did. About 10 days after my reported disso-escapade above from which I believed myself to have emerged relatively unscathed, I ended up dosing around ~100mg DCK over about a day, and since then have begun to experience familiar signs of ACH-induced bladder cystitis, most noticeable for me in the morning, although intermittently at times throughout the day. Additionally, I also became really unwell about a day after, with symptoms primarily manifesting as major fatigue... which brings to mind DCK's reported possible immunosuppresive effects.

So, yes, despite everything I said I lulled MYSELF into a false sense of security, pushed my luck, and here I am. I am somewhat hopeful that I will still recover based just on past experience... but either way, it's clear if I continue to use dissociatives, at least of the ACH kind, I'll be walking a dangerous and possibly just stupid, addiction-rationalised road.
 

LucidSDreamr

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Green tea doesn't work because of the caffeine, it works despite the caffeine. Because in so far the damage is aggravated by inflammation, this is lessened by green tea's various anti-inflammatory compounds.

Why do you think damage to the mucus layer is irreversible? Generally it seems to regenerate just fine, within 24 hours after removal.


Edit: what is considered irreversible though is the fibrosis. The body eventually gives up healing the inflammation and vascular complications the regular way, and dumps collagen onto it as to form scar tissue. The inflammation is submucosal, the problem can only partially be framed as the ketamine corroding, and triggering the shedding of, the most outer layer, which on

I haven't looked into it in some time so I can't say that the GAG layer of the bladder wall does not regenerate by itself. However a major hypothesis for IC is the depletion of the GAG layer and many of the most popular therapies to treat the disease involve attempts to refortify the bladder wall with GAG replacements such as heparin instilliations and instilliation and oral dosing of Elmiron...both GAG like compounds.


I'd have to to more reading to confirm whether the GAG layer is capable of regenerating on its own. Even if it is...if you deplete it you open your self up to more damage and inflammation which will result in the fibrotic damage you mentioned.
 
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Vastness

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Just a further update on my recent DCK escapades... while I did get very sick for a short time after, in fact the bladder issues faded within 2/3 days from my heavier dosing sessions.

A short time later, because I'm just a degenerate disso addict I guess, had some DCK left, and just wanted to escape reality momentarily... I decided to dose again. This time though, I dosed much more lightly, like lines of between 5-10mg, up to 20mg as the days went on, never more than 30mg (this dose I did exactly once). I literally went on using like this for about 5 days, using about half a gram in that time... actually, 460mg, so an average of 92mg / day. Always spread out over the course of the day, with an hour or 2 between doses.

This time... I did NOT get any bladder issues, either during or in the aftermath. 🤔

I'm not sure what is going on here, possibly a factor is that as I was essentially conscious and mostly lucid, I drank water, remembered to eat, and even engaged in light exercise from time to time (basically just walking around in all honesty, but good to just get outside sometimes). I also continued to take an ECGC supplement daily, and was more liberal with taking D-mannose throughout and for a few days after (honestly I'm still not exactly sure what it's supposed to do).

It does seem though that, potentially, light, infrequent doses of DCK are easier for the body to clear and less likely to cause any lasting damage compared to the heavier, all in one DCK-holers, like 50mg+ or whatever which I think is closer to what I was doing the first time round. Although I've probably gone up to 100mg or more historically.

Finished my lil DCK baggie now anyway and honestly, am kind of relieved. But these inconsistent bladder effects are bizarre and I wish I knew what was really going on.
 

MsDiz

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I don't have feeling in my bladder left after using MXE for about a year. I'm indifferent to it, it hasn't caused any loss of life quality. If something doesn't feel quite right, I shake my lower body to check whether there's inertia from a full bladder, and then I know it's time to go. I can't do long, intense, confusing trips anymore though. I simply forget the need to urinate, which translates to a heart and kidney load.
Chris, may I ask if you have feeling in it now? I know this was from 2019.
 

Chris Timothy

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A little feeling has returned, but it's largely still numb. It had become almost a little bothersome, having to keep the hydraulic pressure down and the blood optimally clean to minimize the tinnitus. It happened a couple of times that I got stuck in a flow state escaping the ringing and only noticed I forgot to empty after noticing noise increase. But I'm still content with it. I used to have an oversensitive bladder, feeling like having to empty right after having emptied, stuff like that. A fibrotic bladder is much preferable.

@LucidSDreamr
They're not talking about ketamine bladder in that study, they're talking about "interstitial cystitis", with mystery cause. Then they hypothesize the mucus layer might be disintegrating on its own. Well yeah, if it's spontaneously degenerating then of course it isn't regenerating.

Gotta be careful with the medical word games. Sometimes sesquipedalian polysyllabics are thrown around just to give a facade of expertise, heh.
 

LucidSDreamr

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Just a further update on my recent DCK escapades... while I did get very sick for a short time after, in fact the bladder issues faded within 2/3 days from my heavier dosing sessions.

A short time later, because I'm just a degenerate disso addict I guess, had some DCK left, and just wanted to escape reality momentarily... I decided to dose again. This time though, I dosed much more lightly, like lines of between 5-10mg, up to 20mg as the days went on, never more than 30mg (this dose I did exactly once). I literally went on using like this for about 5 days, using about half a gram in that time... actually, 460mg, so an average of 92mg / day. Always spread out over the course of the day, with an hour or 2 between doses.

This time... I did NOT get any bladder issues, either during or in the aftermath. 🤔

I'm not sure what is going on here, possibly a factor is that as I was essentially conscious and mostly lucid, I drank water, remembered to eat, and even engaged in light exercise from time to time (basically just walking around in all honesty, but good to just get outside sometimes). I also continued to take an ECGC supplement daily, and was more liberal with taking D-mannose throughout and for a few days after (honestly I'm still not exactly sure what it's supposed to do).

It does seem though that, potentially, light, infrequent doses of DCK are easier for the body to clear and less likely to cause any lasting damage compared to the heavier, all in one DCK-holers, like 50mg+ or whatever which I think is closer to what I was doing the first time round. Although I've probably gone up to 100mg or more historically.

Finished my lil DCK baggie now anyway and honestly, am kind of relieved. But these inconsistent bladder effects are bizarre and I wish I knew what was really going on.
I've been telling you wants going on. You're doing irreversible damage to your bladder and trying to rationalize continued use by assessing whether you feel pain after certain doses or with certain supplements that aren't going to do shit to prevent ketamine cystitis.

Your symptoms starting are exactly how it went for me. 3 weeks ago I had an electrical simulator implanted into my pelvic nerves to try amd stop the pain. This is what continued disso use holds for you. I haven't eaten pizza or citrus fruit or dranks soda in 4 years...I could go on.

Honestly I would recommend an IV heroin and crack addiction to you over continued dissociative use with your symptoms in terms of potential damage you could do if you continue.
 

LucidSDreamr

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A little feeling has returned, but it's largely still numb. It had become almost a little bothersome, having to keep the hydraulic pressure down and the blood optimally clean to minimize the tinnitus. It happened a couple of times that I got stuck in a flow state escaping the ringing and only noticed I forgot to empty after noticing noise increase. But I'm still content with it. I used to have an oversensitive bladder, feeling like having to empty right after having emptied, stuff like that. A fibrotic bladder is much preferable.

@LucidSDreamr
They're not talking about ketamine bladder in that study, they're talking about "interstitial cystitis", with mystery cause. Then they hypothesize the mucus layer might be disintegrating on its own. Well yeah, if it's spontaneously degenerating then of course it isn't regenerating.

Gotta be careful with the medical word games. Sometimes sesquipedalian polysyllabics are thrown around just to give a facade of expertise, heh.
Jesus im glad im done with academia and ppl that speak like you. We just fire ppl that act like that in the real world even if you're good.

Ketamine cystitis as a formal diagnosis also involves degradation of the epithelial layer of the bladder wall. Does
it regenerate in the specific case of ketamine induced cystitis vs IC? You haven't cited any source saying that it does regenerate in KC. I don't really care enough about winning a dick sizing scientific debate with you about it either to go look up papers showing that it doesn't regenerate in the case of ketamine cystitis because I get paid too much for reading science papers to do it for free to win an argument with you. But let us know if you find out.

The only thing worth my time here is to warn ppl that this is dangerous, not try to rationalize the use of supplements and theorize as to why the damage can be fixed to give ppl reasons to keep using.

It's been a while but I also remember reading papers discussing that the mechanisms of IC and KC could be similar in terms of immunological cascades ultimately resulting in the physical damage. Again, not going to dig those up for you now but you can look into it, find them, then compile a thesis as to why the two diagnoses aren't identical and win the day. They are however treated identically (ie with GAG replacement compound introduction to the bladder).
 
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Vastness

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I've been telling you wants going on. You're doing irreversible damage to your bladder and trying to rationalize continued use by assessing whether you feel pain after certain doses or with certain supplements that aren't going to do shit to prevent ketamine cystitis.

Your symptoms starting are exactly how it went for me. 3 weeks ago I had an electrical simulator implanted into my pelvic nerves to try amd stop the pain. This is what continued disso use holds for you. I haven't eaten pizza or citrus fruit or dranks soda in 4 years...I could go on.
Hard to read but no doubt somewhat true. I am trying to rationalise continued use of dissociatives, if very rarely. I am addicted, by most definitions of the word.

The only thing I would somewhat dispute is that supplements aren't going to do shit, there seems evidence that some of them are surely doing something, even if, arguably, maybe not much.

I'm also -- and I freely admit this is most likely the addiction talking - something I just want to be true - not entirely convinced of the absolute irreversibility of the damage - at least, that it applies to everyone. It seems to me there are some instances in which it has been reversed, although to what extent, perhaps, is debatable.

I appreciate your reasons for stressing this point so strongly, of course. I guess there's not much need for me to say anything else, these substances are irrefutably known to damage to an organ most people would like to keep in good condition, so even in the edge cases where people are fortunate enough to avoid life changing symptoms in the long term, it's perhaps irresponsible to try to give anyone else an excuse to keep on using when they're already getting warning signs.

If I could, I'd get the most thorough analysis of the health of my bladder that current medical science could provide, I would obviously like to see objectively the damage I quite possibly have done, even if I don't entirely accept the seriousness of the situation just yet, in all honesty, as much as I'd like to... and as irrational as I know that is. Dissociatives almost never give me anything good in the aftermath.
 

LucidSDreamr

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...the only way for them to see the damage objectively is to stick a camera up your D (cystoscopy). Not a fun procedure and it's done while you are awake. They typically don't do that until your symptoms are chronic and or severe.
 
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Vastness

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Hmm... that does not sound pleasant. I think I could do it if it wouldn't be near impossible or probably very expensive to arrange.

Just to play devil's advocate though (and to find a reason to keep on rationalizing my addiction 😉), or actually partly out of wanting to just understand better... I DO seem to recover. I do not experience any symptoms of cystitis for more than a few days of the few occasions that mild, and nonetheless of course extremely concerning, bladder awareness has occurred.

Typically, the more frequently I abuse dissociatives, the slower the recovery (longest was I think 5-7 days after a sustained period of ketamine, DCK and a few others for about a week). But most recently after a solid 6 months of abstinence, they faded far sooner, and took longer to develop (first time round I was essentially just binging for days, but taking the odd day off which is usually when I'd expect the bad stuff to start... this time round I had a full week in between sessions). This to me points to SOME recovery, even if arguably not complete recovery... I'm sure if I'd made that 6 months into a year, after which maybe I'd have even got past the grip that dissos seem to have on me, the bladder reaction, if any, would have been even less. What does this mean?

Obviously EVERYTHING I've described still means I am now at risk. But equally, is there recovery of some sort occurring, or is this just an illusion? What's recovering, and what isn't? I know you said you have little interest in digging up science papers for people but I'd really appreciate it if you could point me in the right direction.
 

Chris Timothy

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Jesus im glad im done with academia and ppl that speak like you. We just fire ppl that act like that in the real world even if you're good.

Ketamine cystitis as a formal diagnosis also involves degradation of the epithelial layer of the bladder wall. Does
it regenerate in the specific case of ketamine induced cystitis vs IC? You haven't cited any source saying that it does regenerate in KC. I don't really care enough about winning a dick sizing scientific debate with you about it either to go look up papers showing that it doesn't regenerate in the case of ketamine cystitis because I get paid too much for reading science papers to do it for free to win an argument with you. But let us know if you find out.

The only thing worth my time here is to warn ppl that this is dangerous, not try to rationalize the use of supplements and theorize as to why the damage can be fixed to give ppl reasons to keep using.

It's been a while but I also remember reading papers discussing that the mechanisms of IC and KC could be similar in terms of immunological cascades ultimately resulting in the physical damage. Again, not going to dig those up for you now but you can look into it, find them, then compile a thesis as to why the two diagnoses aren't identical and win the day. They are however treated identically (ie with GAG replacement compound introduction to the bladder).
Whoa whoa.. where's that coming from? I'm not interested in competition either, I'm here to collaborate, which is also possible under non-bureaucratic standards. But not if you give me that attitude, or treat me as your research slave. I gave you my view, put a little joke under it under the assumption you're not a salty sandy who can't take one. And you can take it or leave it, but keep your other complaints.
 

higherconciousness

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Damn I didn’t know ket could cause this type of damage and I just ordered a considerable amount. A few years ago I was sent fentanyl instead of 4-fa. It killed my girlfriend and left me in a state of kidney and liver failure. As such, I’m concerned that I might be more susceptible to these pernicious effects.
 

Xorkoth

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Oh man, I'm so sorry. :( That right there is exactly the reason why everyone should be testuing every new batchthey get from a vendor, even if they've used that vendor before. And start with an allergy test. I admit I do not always do this myself, but your experience really drives home the need.

Sorry for your loss. ♥️
 

higherconciousness

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Now I’m gonna be paranoid while using it. The duration is so short which leads to compulsive redosing so hopefully I can limit my usage and be reasonable. So this applies to all arylcyclohexylamines? This is about the only Dissociative I can find at the moment.
 
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