Opioids Utilising Kratom for Opiate Withdrawal

[Backfromthebrink]

Idk I was using kratom only for the past two days and it helped me get over the lingering effects of oxy WD. How would kratom alone bring back oxy wd? I don't find kratom to be anywhere nearly appealing as opiates but that's just me.. was just using it to help discomfort.

Because the only way to get over opiate withdrawl cold turkey is to stop using ANY opiates (unless your using some kind of substitution therapy to taper off) to allow the various chemicals and receptors in the brain and body to return to homeostasis...

If you use another opiate to ease the pain of withdrawing from a different opiate then you're preventing that from happening....

Like I say, unless you're doing a taper, you've got to stop at some point and holding off the discomfort by using an opiate during cold turkey withdrawl is just prolonging the inevitable... Also I stand by my earlier point which was that if the initial withdrawl was minor, postponing the discomfort with another opiate can turn a small withdrawl into a big one if the amount of time on opiates continuously is increased significantly..

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

I'm sorry if I'm missing something but kratom is not an opiate?

 

[Scrofula]

It's neither an opiate derived from opium, or a semi-synthetic opioid, or all synthetic but the leaf has compounds that target the same opioid receptors, is what he meant.

How would you classify something like mitragynine, and the semi-sythetic derivatives that'll eventually come from it?

I guess they'd still be opioids if that's the receptor name.

I admit I thought opiate included the semi-synthetics and opioid reserved for the structurally unrelated ones like fentanyl, but I guess everything not codeine, thebaine or morphine is an opioid.

"Opioid" sounds more synthetic. Or like an alien, like addicts are Opioids, creatures from the planet Opion.

 

[Backfromthebrink]

It's neither an opiate derived from opium, or a semi-synthetic opioid, or all synthetic but the leaf has compounds that target the same opioid receptors, is what he meant.

How would you classify something like mitragynine, and the semi-sythetic derivatives that'll eventually come from it?

I guess they'd still be opioids if that's the receptor name.

I admit I thought opiate included the semi-synthetics and opioid reserved for the structurally unrelated ones like fentanyl, but I guess everything not codeine, thebaine or morphine is an opioid.

"Opioid" sounds more synthetic. Or like an alien, like addicts are Opioids, creatures from the planet Opion.

Yeah. What I was getting at, is that in order for the brain to "heal" as it were, the opiate receptors (which kratom also targets) need to be free of anything that agonises (attaches to and activaes) them.

I know "opiod" = synthetic and "opiate" = derived feom the opium poppy...but sometimes I just say opiate to generalise and not make the point overly complicated.....at the end of the day though, it's just semantics in this case due to the point I made above

 

[Scrofula]

sometimes I just say opiate to generalise and not make the point overly complicated.....at the end of the day though, it's just semantics in this case due to the point I made above

I do too, I wasn't correcting you, I thought it was a less than dollar value comment before that, no offense there either, or to folks who shop at dollar stores.

It made me double check terminology. Frankly I don't know if it's a UN overseen board of directors who has that authority to change opiate to opioid for receptor names. Or if they can issue fines.

But if the all-powerful, all-knowing and all-seeing IUPAC will accept "acetylene", then we can say opiate now and then.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Ah I see. We'll see what happens to me later, lol. I can be wrong but withdrawing from percs was crazy. I can't imagine 3 days of kratom use would make it unbearable but we'll see..

 

[Backfromthebrink]

I do too, I wasn't correcting you, I thought it was a less than dollar value comment before that, no offense there either, or to folks who shop at dollar stores.

It made me double check terminology. Frankly I don't know if it's a UN overseen board of directors who has that authority to change opiate to opioid for receptor names. Or if they can issue fines.

But if the all-powerful, all-knowing and all-seeing IUPAC will accept "acetylene", then we can say opiate now and then.

Lol...yeah no worries man...I knew you weren't doing that...most people just say opiate but you were spot on with your definition.

Ah I see. We'll see what happens to me later, lol. I can be wrong but withdrawing from percs was crazy. I can't imagine 3 days of kratom use would make it unbearable but we'll see..

No it probably won't..but the point is that if you're trying to cold turkey, taking anything that tickles your opiate receptors to ease the pain of withdrawls temporarily, does not help you get clean.. it's just postpones the pain...

I wish it were different but the only way to get of opiates/opiods cold turkey is to just stop taking them and try and manage the withdrawl with non opiate "comfort meds" such as benzos, pregabalin, clonidine, ibuprofen etc.

 

[Jabberwocky]

No it probably won't..but the point is that if you're trying to cold turkey, taking anything that tickles your opiate receptors to ease the pain of withdrawls temporarily, does not help you get clean.. it's just postpones the pain...

I wish it were different but the only way to get of opiates/opiods cold turkey is to just stop taking them and try and manage the withdrawl with non opiate "comfort meds" such as benzos, pregabalin, clonidine, ibuprofen etc.

Actually this is very inaccurate. Just because something is an opioid doesn't mean it won't help to treat withdrawal. THE most significant way of treating acute opioid withdrawal in places like the US is a combo of buprenorphine (or methadone), gabapentin, clonidine, diazepam and something to help with insomnia.

Even without the buprenorphine or methadone isn't involved as part of the comfort med arsenal, the other meds will still make a big difference - but with one of them it will still end up being a lot more manageable.

Taking buprenorphine or methadone (or codeine, or morphine - anything one isn't currently or recently dependent on) is an ideal way to detox from opioids. Taking something like buprenorphine or methadone for about a week isn't going to make the withdrawal worse when one stops the meds - a week isn't enough to time to become dependent on the opioid being used to treat acute withdrawal.

Commonly used opioids used to treat opioid withdrawal (most effectively, I add) include buprenorphine, methadone, morphine, dihydrocodeine and loperamide. Anything with a long half life works pretty well for this purposes, although each specific med has it pros and cons.

In terms of kratom, for all practical purposes it is an opioid. Seems like it is sort of a cross between buprenorphine and tramadol. It's like buprenorphine in the sense that high enough doses seem to act as a bit of a partial agonist. Similar to tramadol in that kratom seems to affect the mood more than it does physiological aspects of opioid withdrawal.

Using kratom to treat acute opioid withdrawal is feasible, just not as user friendly as something like buprenorphine (and using comfort meds like gabapentin and clonidine will still help a lot using kratom to detox).

Same rules apply, don't use it for more than one or two weeks unless the user is planning to begin maintenance with it. It won't be as effective as the meds I mentioned earlier, but it will be a lot better than nothing. As kratom has a shorter half life than something like methadone or buprenorphine, so one of the only downsides is that it might have to be doses more frequently than a longer acting opioid.

 

[Backfromthebrink]

Actually this is very inaccurate. Just because something is an opioid doesn't mean it won't help to treat withdrawal. THE most significant way of treating acute opioid withdrawal in places like the US is a combo of buprenorphine (or methadone), gabapentin, clonidine, diazepam and something to help with insomnia.

Even without the buprenorphine or methadone isn't involved as part of the comfort med arsenal, the other meds will still make a big difference - but with one of them it will still end up being a lot more manageable.

Taking buprenorphine or methadone (or codeine, or morphine - anything one isn't currently or recently dependent on) is an ideal way to detox from opioids. Taking something like buprenorphine or methadone for about a week isn't going to make the withdrawal worse when one stops the meds - a week isn't enough to time to become dependent on the opioid being used to treat acute withdrawal.

Commonly used opioids used to treat opioid withdrawal (most effectively, I add) include buprenorphine, methadone, morphine, dihydrocodeine and loperamide. Anything with a long half life works pretty well for this purposes, although each specific med has it pros and cons.

In terms of kratom, for all practical purposes it is an opioid. Seems like it is sort of a cross between buprenorphine and tramadol. It's like buprenorphine in the sense that high enough doses seem to act as a bit of a partial agonist. Similar to tramadol in that kratom seems to affect the mood more than it does physiological aspects of opioid withdrawal.

Using kratom to treat acute opioid withdrawal is feasible, just not as user friendly as something like buprenorphine (and using comfort meds like gabapentin and clonidine will still help a lot using kratom to detox).

Same rules apply, don't use it for more than one or two weeks unless the user is planning to begin maintenance with it. It won't be as effective as the meds I mentioned earlier, but it will be a lot better than nothing. As kratom has a shorter half life than something like methadone or buprenorphine, so one of the only downsides is that it might have to be doses more frequently than a longer acting opioid.

Sorry but thst doesn't make sense...

Taking an opiate to temporarily relieve the symptoms of acute opiate withdrawl isn't going to help at all. It may relieve symptoms for now but as soon as youvsyop that (assuming you don't taper) you will still have to go through the withdrawl anyway...all you've done is hold it off for a week.. When you're talking about things like methadone, buprenorphine etc. thats in the context of some sort if taper or detox program.... I'm talking about being in acute withdrawl and just taking an opioid at random to make yourself feel better for a while with no thought to what is going to happen when you stop.

If one is trying to cold turkey detox from opiates (which again is what I said.. not talking about tapering)....taking an ad hoc dose of an opiate during the acute withdrawl phase is simply delaying the bodies return to homeostasis....meds such as Gabapentin, pregabalin, benzos etc. are different since obviously they aren't opiates and don't interfere with the opiate detox itself .

You mention taking it for a week or so, and this not being long enough to get hooked on this particular opiod but that's not how it works....it's not a case of not getting hooked on this particular drug. The person is alread hooked on opioids in general and consumption of any opiod is delaying the process of detoxification....it's irrelevant if you become hooked on one particular drug for another.

I'm not sure if you've misunderstood what I was meaning....Im not talking about a rapid taper (or any taper for that matter)....I'm talking about someone who has decided to quit cold Turkey, is in acute withdrawl and just decides to take an opioid to temporarily make themself feel better for a few hours.

In any circumstance the only way to detox feom opiods is to stop taking them and all a taper does is make that transition more gradual....but you still have to stop... but like I say ..it's taking a random ads hoc dose without any intent to taper that I'm talking about....I thought when I'd said "trying to quit cold turkey" that it was clear I wasnt talking about a taper with methadone/bupe/lope etc. But just caving and using a one off dose

 

[Jabberwocky]

Sorry but thst doesn't make sense...

How much experience do you have treating symptoms of acute opioid withdrawal?

Taking an opiate to temporarily relieve the symptoms of acute opiate withdrawl isn't going to help at all.

In correct.

It may relieve symptoms for now but as soon as youvsyop that (assuming you don't taper) you will still have to go through the withdrawl anyway...all you've done is hold it off for a week..

Take buprenorphine. What happens when one takes it properly to treat acute opioid withdrawal, it allows your body to process out the particular opioid(s) you had been dependent on. Taking buprenorphine only long enough to treat acute withdrawal (so about 4-10 days depending on habit) will not lead to a new dependency on a new opioid. When it is only used to treat acute withdrawal, developing a dependency on buprenorphine is the exception, not the rule.

When used properly, opioid comfort meds "essentially mask" the major symptoms one experiencing during acute withdrawal. There may still be a little lingering withdrawal to deal with after about a week of taking buprenorphine, but this is more related to the effects of how the body is continue to adjust to not taking opioids.

When you're talking about things like methadone, buprenorphine etc. thats in the context of some sort if taper or detox program.... I'm talking about being in acute withdrawl and just taking an opioid at random to make yourself feel better for a while with no thought to what is going to happen when you stop.

Taking any random opioid when one is desperate for relief isn't a great I idea, totally agreed. That said, full agonist opioids commonly used for pain (codeine, tramadol, etc) can also be used to effectively and safely treat acute opioid withdrawal.

But this part of your post raises an important issue. What if the person detoxing doesn't want to stop using opioids, and they were detoxing for some other reason. My question is why not encourage and support the person regardless of their reasons for wanting to attempt detox?

If one is trying to cold turkey detox from opiates (which again is what I said.. not talking about tapering)....taking an ad hoc dose of an opiate during the acute withdrawl phase is simply delaying the bodies return to homeostasis....meds such as Gabapentin, pregabalin, benzos etc. are different since obviously they aren't opiates and don't interfere with the opiate detox itself .

Again, this isn't quite correct. Codeine, for instance, is a very effective comfort med. It can be used essentially the same as methadone or buprenorphine. Taking it for a few days to mask the acute withdrawal from another opioid dependency isn't any more likely to end up leading to dependency than a short course of methadone or buprenorphine would.

Protip: Just because something is an opioid doesn't mean it is necessarily harmful or counterproductive during the detox process. Making a habit of using any drug compulsively for any reason isn't going to end well, but I'm speaking within the context of how people can effectively treat acute withdrawal in and outside of clinical/inpatient settings.

You mention taking it for a week or so, and this not being long enough to get hooked on this particular opiod but that's not how it works....it's not a case of not getting hooked on this particular drug. The person is alread hooked on opioids in general and consumption of any opiod is delaying the process of detoxification....it's irrelevant if you become hooked on one particular drug for another.

Actually it is highly relevant. Detoxing from one opioid the next can be radically different experiences. Consider what it would be like kicking a 100mg/day oral codeine habit next to using 100mg/day IV hydromorphone. The symptoms of acute withdrawal will share a lot of similarities, but they will also be very distinct in flavor and appearance.

The circumstances under which the a drug is used is far more significant than whether or not one is simply using said drug.

I'm not sure if you've misunderstood what I was meaning....Im not talking about a rapid taper (or any taper for that matter)....I'm talking about someone who has decided to quit cold Turkey, is in acute withdrawl and just decides to take an opioid to temporarily make themself feel better for a few hours.

Okay, so what is the problem with this? Although it does drag the kick out a little bit, I've found doing essentially what you're suggesting to actually be fairly helpful in terms of making it through acute withdrawal. Not the best idea, but far from the worst.

In any circumstance the only way to detox feom opiods is to stop taking them and all a taper does is make that transition more gradual....but you still have to stop... but like I say ..it's taking a random ads hoc dose without any intent to taper that I'm talking about....I thought when I'd said "trying to quit cold turkey" that it was clear I wasnt talking about a taper with methadone/bupe/lope etc. But just caving and using a one off dose

If one's goal is abstinence from opioids, then taking any opioids (especially outside a medical setting) is inherently problematic. But what if one's goal wasn't about using or not using drugs, but about broader quality of life issues?

Using an opioid on a one off because one is desperate during acute withdrawal probably isn't the best idea, but it isn't the worst either. That is part of why I'm a big proponent of effectively treat acute opioid withdrawal - because it sets people up for success far more so than if they just tried to deal with it on their own.

 

[Backfromthebrink]

How much experience do you have treating symptoms of acute opioid withdrawal?

More than you could imagine

In correct.

I take it that meant incorrect?

Again no...strongly disagree....as do all the studies.

I'm not going to retype why again and repeat myself

Using an opioid on a one off because one is desperate during acute withdrawal probably isn't the best idea

And that was my point. Pretty much every argument you've made has been about something else ...My original point and every point since hasn't been about short course of this or quick tapers of that...but just taking a one off dose (or two) of a random opioid while in acute withdrawl to make a person feel better for a few hours before stopping and resuming the cold turkey....this does not help.

Okay, so what is the problem with this? Although it does drag the kick out a little bit,

You just answered your own question

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Is this Kratom w/d? The past two days my stomach felt really off and nauseous, but literally even touching it would hurt. I had shooting pain throughout my joints/shoulders and even opies wouldn't cover the pain. last night I woke up twice randomly and felt as if I had not slept at all. Inconsistent stools,etc.

Cannot tell if this is because of loperamide use or kratom use over the past two weeks... or a combo of both, lol

For opiate withdrawal I have to disagree with you @backfromthebrink. It's true that you'll feel something for sure eventually... but I think it can minimize opiate withdrawal and make it more drawn out.. so pick your poison. IMHE I would rather go through what I've gone through the past 2 days than face percocet withdrawal at my prime all over again. It's just I totally abused the kratom after the first week being me...

 

[Ickaman]

There's really nothing to 'heal'. Your endogenous opioid system isn't broken, or hurt. Upregulation- you use opioids, the body produces more receptors, you stop using, your body reacts to those empty receptors, downregulation.

In effect you're switching from a long acting opioid to a short acting opioid, which is often necessary for many people doing a Methadone or Buprenorphine taper.

The problem with using Kratom in this manner is the lack of a standardized dose. A few papers on Methadone maintanence say it takes up to 9 days of abstinence for Methadone to clear the body of a moderate to high dose MMT patient to the point where they will pass a urinalysis for Methadone.

Using a short acting opioid longer than this (more or less) can hurt your attempt at abtstinence more than helping. The most you can hope for by switching to a short acting opioid after Methadone before jumping off opioids completely is to ease yourself into acute withdrawal. The withdrawal syndrome won't be as long as a standard Methadone withdrawal (20-30 days), but won't be as intense as that of a short acting opioid. Thats the general idea- this ought to maximize your comfort level when you do kick.

You dont seem to know what your talking aboit for length of mmt withdrawl u just repeated every word someone who didnt know anything tried to say telling me how long my withdrawls last mmt fcks you up for months of withdrawl youll be in fight or flight for months this 20 30 and 9 day nonsense is cheap healthcare inhumane and a huge reason rehabs have so much return buisness....i do admit there are mile markers in staying clean and success in staying clean the more you do their little social engeneering experince on you 3/4 days then 7 then 12 then 30 days 28 for new habbit forming . Your blood preasure will be pumped for month zero sleep for your whole 20 30 day lie! Maybe my withdrawls are just so bad because im not a 30 mg mmt im a 160 mg cold turkey 3 months i was still going to the ER for what feels like a 3 to 6 month long heart attack

 

[plumbus-nine]

Switching opioid agents is/can be effective in lowering withdrawal severity based on my own experiences but it might have something to do with kindling, in that it's only effective for newbies and loses efficacy after one's brain has learned how to withdraw horribly, unfortunately but just a guess. Methadone for example was the worst for just stopping, morphine in the middle (with non-oral routes being better as in less diarrhea, stomach cramps, by partially bypassing the digestive tract) and buprenorphine the best. Tapering down on morphine while using pregabalin to comfort (as much as necessary, I suspect even high, stimulating doses like 900mg+ to cause potentially LESS withdrawal than lower, but that's another guess, I never got real withdrawal from pregabalin despite using it for months. It's certainly the less worse option than benzodiazepines) works until a certain low threshold. I've withdrawn from 600mg/d morphine twice without pain, so it's possible (PAWS is a different beast unfortunately, antidepressants help ..) though I consider myself lucky and I had access to many pharmaceuticals. Believe me, I've been in bad withdrawal too, just not for too long (which is when kindling happens).
Kratom is not completely cross-tolerant to other opioids and can be used during the worst part of withdrawal without losing everything. Imho you don't need to suffer intensely, that route is fast but it's not required and I consider it old-school-ish in the sense of "let's these addicts suffer so that they won't relapse" which has proven wrong.

Good question if kindling is reversible or inherently connected with learning and memory, and if, then how.

Good luck to everybody here!

 

[Tramalala]

Actually this is very inaccurate. Just because something is an opioid doesn't mean it won't help to treat withdrawal. THE most significant way of treating acute opioid withdrawal in places like the US is a combo of buprenorphine (or methadone), gabapentin, clonidine, diazepam and something to help with insomnia.

Even without the buprenorphine or methadone isn't involved as part of the comfort med arsenal, the other meds will still make a big difference - but with one of them it will still end up being a lot more manageable.

Taking buprenorphine or methadone (or codeine, or morphine - anything one isn't currently or recently dependent on) is an ideal way to detox from opioids. Taking something like buprenorphine or methadone for about a week isn't going to make the withdrawal worse when one stops the meds - a week isn't enough to time to become dependent on the opioid being used to treat acute withdrawal.

Commonly used opioids used to treat opioid withdrawal (most effectively, I add) include buprenorphine, methadone, morphine, dihydrocodeine and loperamide. Anything with a long half life works pretty well for this purposes, although each specific med has it pros and cons.

In terms of kratom, for all practical purposes it is an opioid. Seems like it is sort of a cross between buprenorphine and tramadol. It's like buprenorphine in the sense that high enough doses seem to act as a bit of a partial agonist. Similar to tramadol in that kratom seems to affect the mood more than it does physiological aspects of opioid withdrawal.

Using kratom to treat acute opioid withdrawal is feasible, just not as user friendly as something like buprenorphine (and using comfort meds like gabapentin and clonidine will still help a lot using kratom to detox).

Same rules apply, don't use it for more than one or two weeks unless the user is planning to begin maintenance with it. It won't be as effective as the meds I mentioned earlier, but it will be a lot better than nothing. As kratom has a shorter half life than something like methadone or buprenorphine, so one of the only downsides is that it might have to be doses more frequently than a longer acting opioid.

Yep, I found switching to a weaker opiate/opioid short-term definitely effective in making withdrawal a lot less painful. I think this is because most opi's are not 100% cross tolerant.

 

[Ganjcat]

I wish you fuckers would stop making threads about kratom because everyone i see a title with kratom in it I get a jolt of cravings damn I miss kratom if I used the earlier more I could get it or even the normal net by I ain't got money to risk on an unknown source I had a nice little run though back when it was legal and you could order it anywhere I liked the red strains more than others the capsules were shit it was all about toss and wash if I become a moderator the first drug I'm asking fubar for is kratom oj lol